The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[1805]

I saw an article suggesting GE/RR (I can't find it now!) are offering the US DoD a price reduction on the F35b lift engine, which could save $1bn over the fleet. I wonder if true if this is an indication the F35b is near cancellation and a last throw of the dice?

If the case it reinforces the wisdom of moving to cat on the QEs. I never quite brought the switch to F35c was down solely to the need to work with allied carriers.

 

[StobieWan]

I saw an article suggesting GE/RR (I can't find it now!) are offering the US DoD a price reduction on the F35b lift engine, which could save $1bn over the fleet. I wonder if true if this is an indication the F35b is near cancellation and a last throw of the dice?

If the case it reinforces the wisdom of moving to cat on the QEs. I never quite brought the switch to F35c was down solely to the need to work with allied carriers.

There is no "lift engine" for the B - it's the same F135 engine as the rest of the fleet will get. GE/RR were working on the F136 engine which was an alternate for the F35, that's cancelled, and no further work is being undertaken.

F35B is actually doing fine, and is out of probation, with all the major snags considered either fixed or fixable.

Ian

 

[FluffyThoughts]

Welcome to the World of Sea-CAAM....

Or is that Sea Ceptor...?

Supersonic Missile Defence System, Royal Navy Orders Sea Ceptor | UK News | Sky News

:jump2

 

[kev 99]

Hate that name.

 

[StobieWan]

I'd love to know who was responsible for that 500m range, it seems to be cropping up everywhere, seems like every news source is just copying and pasting from the original error strewn piece.

Seems that way - I think it's reported from the BBC site as "covering 500 square miles" which is at least nearer the real figure but assuming a range of 25km that's still not right unless my school boy math is off..

Ian

 

[RobWilliams]

I've never even heard of the term "Sea Ceptor" until i read it into the Metro this morning (i'm a student and its free, match made in heaven)

Hell, even googling "Sea Ceptor" only gets you loads of newspaper links about it with pretty much the same story with exactly the same figures.

Is it the MBDA CAMM-M right? IIRC thats whats replacing Sea Wolf

 

[StobieWan]

I've never even heard of the term "Sea Ceptor" until i read it into the Metro this morning (i'm a student and its free, match made in heaven)

Hell, even googling "Sea Ceptor" only gets you loads of newspaper links about it with pretty much the same story with exactly the same figures.

Is it the MBDA CAMM-M right? IIRC thats whats replacing Sea Wolf

Yeah - it's CAMM - nothing new to report on that side. SeaCeptor is a crap name tho...


Ian

 

[RobWilliams]

Yeah - it's CAMM - nothing new to report on that side. SeaCeptor is a crap name tho...


Ian

Good, i read it and was really suprised as i hadn't heard it called that, and i agree its an appauling name. I mean from Sea Wolf to Sea Ceptor? Would have thought they would have gone along with something better

Either way, pretty good boost for the T23s however, it'll be interesting to see how it develops as MBDA believe it'll replace Rapier and A2A missiles (not sure about A2A, they have other better products in my opinion) but i expect its more cost effective than some of their other products.

 

[StobieWan]

Good, i read it and was really suprised as i hadn't heard it called that, and i agree its an appauling name. I mean from Sea Wolf to Sea Ceptor? Would have thought they would have gone along with something better

Either way, pretty good boost for the T23s however, it'll be interesting to see how it develops as MBDA believe it'll replace Rapier and A2A missiles (not sure about A2A, they have other better products in my opinion) but i expect its more cost effective than some of their other products.

CAMM would be a mammoth upgrade to Rapier (it might hit something for instance) - but for A2A, well, it's short legged for active stuff - better to hang a decent IR missile off the pylon. Namewise, Sea Krait ? Another venomous snake but smaller?

Good leg up for the 23's and it'll be nicely mature by the time we start sticking them into Type 26 - although I would like to see something with a longer reach to pad that out - ESSM has about double the reach for instance. Sea Meteor please.

Ian

 

[aussienscale]

Yes, its the dramatisation of every story which grates with mainstream UK media - hence the copious amounts of 'we're not able to retake the Falklands' stories.

Aussienscale, the '38' figure was billions, not millions and it has been reported that the £38bn blackhole (which included future projects) is close to being wiped out thanks to the actions taken in the SDSR. You will see more cuts to reduce the army to about 82,000 + 30,000 reserves and further MoD civil service posts and perhaps a further reduction in Tornado numbers.

I'm confident the navy as is now will not be further hit. With regards to CVF, as Stobiewan says we're guaranteed to have one at least and the decision on what to do with HMS QE will probably not be decided until the 2015 SDSR. It will become politically difficult to have a great big white elephant sat in mothballs doing nothing. By 2015 we'll probably be out of the financial crisis and so I can see QE being converted eventually.

Don't know what other UK forummers opinions are but I would rather sell the 2nd carrier than have it sat there doing nothing and fund an Ocean replacement from the proceeds.

Sorry, yes Billions I thought that was the case, but the story I read made it sound like they still had that to go, that's why I questioned it. It seems to be that (other than the high quality of defence reporting) It is obviously still a very political subject, having read a few more reports, it seems to be a bit of political banter between some Scotish and British guy's, probably just trying to get what they can for their respective regions

Cheers

 

[RobWilliams]

CAMM would be a mammoth upgrade to Rapier (it might hit something for instance) - but for A2A, well, it's short legged for active stuff - better to hang a decent IR missile off the pylon. Namewise, Sea Krait ? Another venomous snake but smaller?

Good leg up for the 23's and it'll be nicely mature by the time we start sticking them into Type 26 - although I would like to see something with a longer reach to pad that out - ESSM has about double the reach for instance. Sea Meteor please.

Ian

AFAIK modern Rapier isn't THAT bad is it? I know all about the "horror stories" about its effectiveness during the Falklands (i'm gunning for a career in defense technology and to 'prepare me' for what I might work on can do, parents got me a book called "Watching Men Burn" which is written by a Rapier operator, in this instance his Rapier failed and he had to watch Sir Galahad be hit) but i was under the impression its modern equivalent was much more effective.

Yeah thats what i was thinking, for the RAF/RN the ASRAAM seems a much better option than the CAMM if you've got to choose, the A2A market seems full of more capable systems but maybe to other export customers perhaps depending on budget?. Yeah, thats not bad, Sea Scorpion perhaps? With the philosophy that the smaller scorpions are usually more potent

God don't get me started on the Meteor, from what i've read about it it seems like an extremely capable BVR missile and i can't wait for them to be fitted to the Typhoon and F35C when they arrive. A naval version would be brilliant, certainly would be good to pair them with CAMM along the same lines as the Aster 15 and Aster 30 relationship for regular + fleet air defence. But using Wiki for unit cost (bad, i know) Meteor is around £1mill which is more expensive than a Storm Shadow which is £790k but i'm guessing that would decrease during production? FYI I'm not entirely confident Wiki is correct

For the record, i'm a pretty big fan of MBDA technology

 

[StobieWan]

AFAIK modern Rapier isn't THAT bad is it? I know all about the "horror stories" about its effectiveness during the Falklands (i'm gunning for a career in defense technology and to 'prepare me' for what I might work on can do, parents got me a book called "Watching Men Burn" which is written by a Rapier operator, in this instance his Rapier failed and he had to watch Sir Galahad be hit) but i was under the impression its modern equivalent was much more effective.

Yeah thats what i was thinking, for the RAF/RN the ASRAAM seems a much better option than the CAMM if you've got to choose, the A2A market seems full of more capable systems but maybe to other export customers perhaps depending on budget?. Yeah, thats not bad, Sea Scorpion perhaps? With the philosophy that the smaller scorpions are usually more potent

God don't get me started on the Meteor, from what i've read about it it seems like an extremely capable BVR missile and i can't wait for them to be fitted to the Typhoon and F35C when they arrive. A naval version would be brilliant, certainly would be good to pair them with CAMM along the same lines as the Aster 15 and Aster 30 relationship for regular + fleet air defence. But using Wiki for unit cost (bad, i know) Meteor is around £1mill which is more expensive than a Storm Shadow which is £790k but i'm guessing that would decrease during production? FYI I'm not entirely confident Wiki is correct

For the record, i'm a pretty big fan of MBDA technology

I don't know how the later blocks of Rapier stack up - and to be honest, I've heard really good reports from the early blocks, if they've not been sprayed with salt water and generally fecked around with - but CAMM is an active seeker, longer range, so we're into all weather, 20 + km range - way better than the current declared performance of Rapier.

Part of me would say we need SAMP-T or similar for theatre level but let's not kid around, we've not done a land campaign without air superiority or without the US in thirty years.


Sea Meteor, well, that's another sparkling "what if" - presumably it'd quad pack in Sylver/Mk41 so we'd be looking at Aster 30 range in that form factor? Air launched it's 130km or so, maybe 70-90km from a ground launch, no booster?

I'd be curious as to what you could get out of it as the cost would be near enough Aster-15 with maybe twice the range, plus quad pack - might be a good match for CAMM in Type 26?

I'm more of a fan of Team Complex Weapons - I like the whole attitude of picking existing chunks of working components and plugging them in - Fireshadow is an excellent example - I understand the fuel tank cost £10, the engine was pulled from an army drone, the sensors from another system.

Basically, it's more the way we should be building stuff - we've spent way too much time inventing a similar mousetrap or reinventing the wheel in the past. We need stuff that works, kills the bad guys and keeps our lads and lasses safe and which doesn't go six trillion quid over budget.

Ian

 

[RobWilliams]

I don't know how the later blocks of Rapier stack up - and to be honest, I've heard really good reports from the early blocks, if they've not been sprayed with salt water and generally fecked around with - but CAMM is an active seeker, longer range, so we're into all weather, 20 + km range - way better than the current declared performance of Rapier.

Ah I see, well what i've heard they were aweful but IIRC they claimed 7 hits in the Falklands I think? Looking at Wiki it claims that CAMM would be "4 three-pack launchers fitted to a self contained pallet that can be fitted onto a range of trucks", certainly seems more mobile than Rapier as AFAIK we don't operate any (or many) motorised Rapier do we?

Part of me would say we need SAMP-T or similar for theatre level but let's not kid around, we've not done a land campaign without air superiority or without the US in thirty years.

Thats true, in an ideal world it'll all be great but with the fighter aircraft available to us SAMs just seem slightly redundant, unless something new roles out, in which case SAMs would be just as useless. All we really need is a relatively cheap piece of kit thats ok and doesn't require massive amounts of money spent on it. Looking back to the Suez canal in '73 when Egypt put up that massive AA screen to hold of the Israeli air force, in those situations SAMs are useful as neither side had a particularly technologically advanced aircraft but realistically in any major conflict these days the US and UK will do the usual 'target the air defence network' which just leaves the air force to be dealt with, most probably far away and too fast for any SAM system to have an effect.

Sea Meteor, well, that's another sparkling "what if" - presumably it'd quad pack in Sylver/Mk41 so we'd be looking at Aster 30 range in that form factor? Air launched it's 130km or so, maybe 70-90km from a ground launch, no booster?

I'd be curious as to what you could get out of it as the cost would be near enough Aster-15 with maybe twice the range, plus quad pack - might be a good match for CAMM in Type 26?

I expect it would too, it's not completely out of the question seeming as Meteor is in the pre-production phase i suppose so it could potentially be a future development? Dimension-wise the Meteor is lighter and shorter with a slightly smaller diameter so i don't see why it would be impossible for the Sylver launcher to be used (again, my lack of the precise technology which would needed to be fitted and how this would affect dimensions is showing here). Would the lack of booster degrade the range that much? But its still very good none-the-less even though the Aster 30 may have a touch more range but i expect they'll stick with pushing CAMM.

I'm more of a fan of Team Complex Weapons - I like the whole attitude of picking existing chunks of working components and plugging them in - Fireshadow is an excellent example - I understand the fuel tank cost £10, the engine was pulled from an army drone, the sensors from another system.

Basically, it's more the way we should be building stuff - we've spent way too much time inventing a similar mousetrap or reinventing the wheel in the past. We need stuff that works, kills the bad guys and keeps our lads and lasses safe and which doesn't go six trillion quid over budget.

Ian

Ah yeah, seems to be more of the "man in his shed" thinking behind it. No doubt its useful and cost effective but i'm a sucker for new gadgets and gizmos I do agree that sometimes there are certain designs where the cost to improve it is vastly bigger than the performance increase is worth.

 

[jaffo4011]

probably a good idea in lieu of our lack of aircraft carriers.....the dauntless,together with typhoon should ensure that no mischief takes place.......and routine ,my arse...this is a clear message.


HMS Dauntless off to Falklands
(UKPA) – 2 hours ago
One of the Royal Navy's most advanced new warships is being sent to the Falkland Islands, the Ministry of Defence said.
Officials said the deployment was long planned, however, and not a riposte to increased tensions over the sovereignty of the islands.
HMS Dauntless, a Type 45 destroyer, is due to set sail for the South Atlantic on her maiden mission in the coming months to replace frigate HMS Montrose.
It comes amid a diplomatic war of words over renewed Argentinian claims to what it calls Las Malvinas, with David Cameron accusing them of "colonialism". The issue is especially sensitive as the 30th anniversary approaches of the liberation of the islands by Britain from an Argentine invasion.
A Royal Navy spokesman rejected suggestions the decision to send the ultra-modern destroyer to the region represented an escalation of the UK's position.
"The Royal Navy has had a continuous presence in the South Atlantic for many years. The deployment of HMS Dauntless to the South Atlantic has been long planned, is entirely routine and replaces another ship on patrol," he said.

 

[Cailet]

Sea Meteor, well, that's another sparkling "what if" - presumably it'd quad pack in Sylver/Mk41 so we'd be looking at Aster 30 range in that form factor? Air launched it's 130km or so, maybe 70-90km from a ground launch, no booster?

Isn't Meteor ramjet powered? You'll need at least sufficient boost to get it up to Mach .8 or so for the engine to produce real thrust.

 

[swerve]

It starts out like a rocket, then goes into ramjet mode. I think you should he able to fire it from ground level & stationary.

"Propulsion
The propulsion sub-system (PSS) is a Throttleable Ducted Rocket (TDR) with an integrated nozzleless booster, designed and manufactured by Bayern-Chemie (BC) of Germany. TDR propulsion provides a long range, a high average speed, a wide operational envelope from sea level to high altitude, a flexible mission envelope via active thrust control, relatively simple design, and logistics similar to those of conventional solid rocket motors.

The PSS consists of four main components: a ramcombustor with integrated nozzleless booster; the air intakes; the interstage; and the sustain gas generator. The PSS forms a structural component of the missile, the gas generator and ramcombustor having steel cases. The propulsion control unit electronics are mounted in the port intake fairing, ahead of the fin actuation subsystem.

The solid propellant nozzleless booster is integrated within the ramcombustor and accelerates the missile to a velocity where the TDR can take over."
(Wikipedia - matches what I remember seeing elsewhere)

 

[Vanguard]

probably a good idea in lieu of our lack of aircraft carriers.....the dauntless,together with typhoon should ensure that no mischief takes place.......and routine ,my arse...this is a clear message.


HMS Dauntless off to Falklands
(UKPA) – 2 hours ago
One of the Royal Navy's most advanced new warships is being sent to the Falkland Islands, the Ministry of Defence said.
Officials said the deployment was long planned, however, and not a riposte to increased tensions over the sovereignty of the islands.
HMS Dauntless, a Type 45 destroyer, is due to set sail for the South Atlantic on her maiden mission in the coming months to replace frigate HMS Montrose.
It comes amid a diplomatic war of words over renewed Argentinian claims to what it calls Las Malvinas, with David Cameron accusing them of "colonialism". The issue is especially sensitive as the 30th anniversary approaches of the liberation of the islands by Britain from an Argentine invasion.
A Royal Navy spokesman rejected suggestions the decision to send the ultra-modern destroyer to the region represented an escalation of the UK's position.
"The Royal Navy has had a continuous presence in the South Atlantic for many years. The deployment of HMS Dauntless to the South Atlantic has been long planned, is entirely routine and replaces another ship on patrol," he said.

The usual awful coverage by defence reporters. So it can take on the entire Argentine Air Force but they neglect to mention that it cannot do a thing against the Argentine Navy should they show up except for a few rounds of its 4.5er whilst HMS Clyde plinks away with its little gun.

By the way what is going to happen to the Clyde it should be returning to Britain soon for refit this year is that looking likely to go ahead and if so what will be its replacement, HMS Scott?, or are they going to put a second big warship down there.

 

[StobieWan]

The usual awful coverage by defence reporters. So it can take on the entire Argentine Air Force but they neglect to mention that it cannot do a thing against the Argentine Navy should they show up except for a few rounds of its 4.5er whilst HMS Clyde plinks away with its little gun.

By the way what is going to happen to the Clyde it should be returning to Britain soon for refit this year is that looking likely to go ahead and if so what will be its replacement, HMS Scott?, or are they going to put a second big warship down there.

Dauntless will be carrying a Hellcat with air to surface weapons - quite sufficient to take out a corvette of the sort the Argentine Navy has.

I'd imagine a combination of a modern warship and an OPV will carry on - it's not the best of times to reduce that commitment. I'd like to see antishipping capability on the Typhoons to be honest.

 

[RobWilliams]

Dauntless will be carrying a Hellcat with air to surface weapons - quite sufficient to take out a corvette of the sort the Argentine Navy has.

I'd imagine a combination of a modern warship and an OPV will carry on - it's not the best of times to reduce that commitment. I'd like to see antishipping capability on the Typhoons to be honest.

AFAIK the only helis the T45 could carry are the Lynx with Sea Skuas or Stingrays or a Merlin with more Stingrays, and i can't find any info on the 'hellcat' on Google

I've had an image of a few Tornados to join the Typhoons fully bombed up, I agree anti-ship on the Typhoons would be handy but i suppose until the deployment of HMS Dauntless their primary function was to tackle enemy fighters but in a few months time that focus could shift.

I keep hearing rumours about an SSN being in the waters nearby but can't seem to find anything except more rumous, are they nonsense or is there some substance? Because if so, we wouldn't have to be worried about any naval vessels in the area full stop.

 

[StobieWan]

AFAIK the only helis the T45 could carry are the Lynx with Sea Skuas or Stingrays or a Merlin with more Stingrays, and i can't find any info on the 'hellcat' on Google

I've had an image of a few Tornados to join the Typhoons fully bombed up, I agree anti-ship on the Typhoons would be handy but i suppose until the deployment of HMS Dauntless their primary function was to tackle enemy fighters but in a few months time that focus could shift.

I keep hearing rumours about an SSN being in the waters nearby but can't seem to find anything except more rumous, are they nonsense or is there some substance? Because if so, we wouldn't have to be worried about any naval vessels in the area full stop.

Sorry, Wildcat - not yet in service tho:

http://helicopterspares.com/news/dsei-2011-wildcat-progresses-towards-service-entry

So, Lynx or two on board with the usual compliment of weapons.

I don't think anyone's going to comment on SSN deployment to be honest - the simple possibility of one being in the area would be enough to enormously complicate any attempt to take the islands.

Ian