The Indonesian Army

[Ananda]

CN235 with winglets....they do not even begun with the CN235NG project, are they?

I doubt it. These are long term plans and the financial position of PT DI has always been rather shaky. With the plans for CN295, it may not make sense to devote resources on another program.

Agree, let's see if they can come out with prototype for N-219. In my opinion it's more realistic project than CN-235NG. DI already got project for C-212-400 worldwide from EADS, and will be given rights for C-295 for Asia-Pacific. DI should align more with EADS to survive in the current market condition.

Besides, I don't think under market development CN-235 still have future. Should focus more with C-295. DI just got IDR 1.0 Trillion (USD 110 mio) injection from Government as shareholder for working capital and update some of their manufacturing machinery. If they doing it smartly, it should made enough boost to regain some of their loss capability after 1998 Asian Financial Crisis.

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

Hi, I'm new here!

In regards to the BT procurement topic, I think it's more of political issue rather than a military one, since the hardliners are practically pushing the army to procure items based on technology levels rather than operational capabilities. Although a leo2 is more technologically advanced than a T-90 or a T-64 Bulat, it isn't designed to be rugged in a harsh and hostile environment (which accounts to more then 80% of the land here). Logistical problems might also arise during wartime, as I doubt maintenance units might find a realistic way to deliver all the spare electronic parts to all the armored units stationed throughout the country in order to keep the tanks computers working.:bum

Also the idea of the leo2 tanks being much more heavier is something more to thought about rather than road infrastructure. Other than main battle tanks comes the issue of recovery/engineering vehicles meant to keep them going in the field, I doubt the panser anoa, 320hp powered, recovery vehicle planned to be bought for the army would be capable of towing a 62,5 ton tank out of a combat zone.

Passing around the broker issue, T-90's have the benefit of being lighter (47,5 tonnes) giving them better sealift capabilities and road capabilities (as stated earlier in the topic), rugged, and also logistically due to the reduced number of electronics to a minimum a logistics issue would be more easier to deal with. And a new built T-90 tank sounds much better rather than a second hand leo2, regardless of the condition (which I am aware were never deployed to a combat zone and has been in storage).

Even if the hardliners cared that much about the technology, The T-90's can easily be fitted with electronics from western manufacturers like THALES or IBD. And besides, a ToT to Pindad sounds pretty good for the long run if they ever decide to make tanks.


BTW, I remember someone asking about the "Tarantula 6x6" early in the topic, it's basically a modified Pindad anoa body mounting a new South Korean 90mm turret to replace the Belgian CSE Defence 90mm turret.

 

[koxinga]

Indonesian Air Force Inspects Ballistic Missiles to Strengthen Air Defense - KOMPAS.com

MEDAN, KOMPAS.com - The Medan National Air Defense Command (Kosekhanudnas) has inspected ballistic missiles abroad to foster the air defense in the area.

"The type of ballistic missiles are the KY-80," Medan Kosekhanudnas chief Vice Marshal Bonar Hutagaol said in Medan on Wednesday.

He said as a unit assigned in the western area, he was in need of ballistic missiles with the capacity to destroy aircraft and ballistic missiles fired by the enemy. Right now the number of ballistic missiles of the Medan Kosekhanudnas III were still enough like those being used by a number of Medium Air Defense Artillery Battalions (Arhanudse).

However, he still needed more ballistic missiles in anticipation of any eventualities. Therefore he made an inspection of the ballistic missiles in the Gobi dessert , China , which he said are very good and suitable to strengthen air defense in Indonesia.

The results of the inspection will be handed to the Military (TNI) Chief for making the necessary decisions. Then the results will be studied more deeply. "Then a decision will be made which are the best for Indonesia."

The supply for aircraft fighters had been depleting and Air Force Chief Marshal Imam Sufaat planned to build an essential force by 2025. Radars will be bought only for airbases still vacant like in Tanjung Pinang.

"The entire sector III (Medan) had already been covered."

Original Source (Indonesia Defence Ministry) can be found here:
KEMENTERIAN PERTAHANAN RI - KOSEKHANUDNAS MEDAN TINJAU RUDAL PERKUAT PERTAHANAN UDARA

Looking at Medium Range SAM? (The KY-80 could be referring to the LY-80, the export designation of the HQ-16) That's new. Perhaps is for their long term plan.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Original Source (Indonesia Defence Ministry) can be found here:
KEMENTERIAN PERTAHANAN RI - KOSEKHANUDNAS MEDAN TINJAU RUDAL PERKUAT PERTAHANAN UDARA

Looking at Medium Range SAM? (The KY-80 could be referring to the LY-80, the export designation of the HQ-16) That's new. Perhaps is for their long term plan.

Hhmmm...using "ballistic missiles" as SAM....KY-80.... clearly written by a reporter without any knowledge about weaponsystems and to lazy to crosscheck.
Anyway, how capable are these Chinese made air defence missiles based on copies of the AIM-7?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

A Indonesian newsarticle about the defence budget for the next five years!
Normally they using a smaller budget every single year isn't it?

Tuesday, January 17, 2012
150 Trilyun Untuk Peremajaan Alutsista


JAKARTA - Kementerian Pertahanan (Kemhan) memiliki dana senilai Rp150 triliun untuk belanja dalam lima tahun mendatang yang akan dialokasi untuk tiga pos penting, terutama terkait dengan peremajaan alutsista.

"Yang harus dipahami, anggaran dalam pembelian alutsista itu multi years melalui proses yang panjang dan bertahap," ujar Menteri Pertahanan (Menhan), Purnomo Yusgiantoro, di Jakarta, Senin (16/1).

Menhan mengatakan, anggaran tersebut digunakan untuk tiga hal, antara lain Rp50 triliun dana on top untuk percepatan minimum essential force (MEF), Rp55 triliun untuk alutsista, dan Rp45 triliun untuk pemeliharaan dan perawatan.

Pengadaan alutsista pada 2012, antara lain untuk TNI AD yang akan membeli Main Battle Tank (MBT), Mltiple Launcher Rocket System, dan Meriam Artileri Medan kaliber 155 mm.

TNI AD juga berencana membeli senjata artileri pertahanan udara yang difokuskan pada peluru kendali (rudal) dan helikopter yang difokuskan pada helikopter serang serta panser yang akan dibuat oleh PT Pindad.

Complete article at: Kemhan miliki Rp150 triliun untuk persenjataan - AntaraNews.com

Some questions and comments...
1. Wasn't the MBT acquisition from the Netherlands cancelled?
2. MLRS, do they want to buy additional RM-70 Grad (what the Korps Marinir already uses) or the indigenous made MLRS system on the Perkasa truck?
3. About the air defence systems (SAM), hopefully they want to buy some decent air defence systems for TNI-AD and TNI-AU, and not some cheap low capability low end MANPADS.

BTW, i have never seen pictures or read reports of the TD-2000B in Indonesian use. I expect the acuisition is cancelled.

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

Some questions and comments...
1. Wasn't the MBT acquisition from the Netherlands cancelled?
2. MLRS, do they want to buy additional RM-70 Grad (what the Korps Marinir already uses) or the indigenous made MLRS system on the Perkasa truck?
3. About the air defence systems (SAM), hopefully they want to buy some decent air defence systems for TNI-AD and TNI-AU, and not some cheap low capability low end MANPADS.

1. They apparently renewed.
2. Recent news articles suggest the BM-30 "Smerch" they haven't signed anything yet though.
3. Haven't heard about any of those yet, a few sources says Mistral missiles but who knows.

 

[koxinga]

RI ready to modernize its weaponry | The Jakarta Post

The above is a more clearer list.

Re MBT, it is not cancelled. Rather it is being reviewed by the Parliamentary Commission on Defence. Of course, whether the Dutch will sell is a separate issue.

MLRS, over the last few years, they have visited and seen various models. From Polish Langustas to M270s to Astros have been mentioned.

 

[Ananda]

RI ready to modernize its weaponry | The Jakarta Post

Re MBT, it is not cancelled. Rather it is being reviewed by the Parliamentary Commission on Defence. Of course, whether the Dutch will sell is a separate issue.

The problem with Parliament right now is some 'lobbyist' that represent certain supplier what's not happy with the Army decision to try getting NATO surplus weapon. Those 'lobbyist' is the one that influence the ' MBT's fiasco' right now.

 

[Ananda]

Got this from local forum. Basically it's an Amphibious APC based (if you see the bottom part) to BMP. This design come out from a local company. They claim it already proved has sufficient capabilities for Amphibious operation.

 

[koxinga]

Got this from local forum. Basically it's an Amphibious APC based (if you see the bottom part) to BMP. This design come out from a local company. They claim it already proved has sufficient capabilities for Amphibious operation.

It appears to be a rebuilt BTR-50PM with a larger rear crew compartment. The number of bogies are the same. PAL was doing something similar.

 

[Ananda]

It appears to be a rebuilt BTR-50PM with a larger rear crew compartment. The number of bogies are the same. PAL was doing something similar.

Well it seems they're doing more through job on modernizing the Russian amphib APC, then PAL did. The boxy appearance of the soldiers compartment reminiscence of what first gen M-113 done. It look somewhat better when they add the LVTP style add on armor on the side. Still look funny though.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Well it seems they're doing more through job on modernizing the Russian amphib APC, then PAL did. The boxy appearance of the soldiers compartment reminiscence of what first gen M-113 done. It look somewhat better when they add the LVTP style add on armor on the side. Still look funny though.

Quite funny indeed, a mixture of BTR-50, AMX-VCI, LVTP and BMP-2....

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

RI ready to modernize its weaponry | The Jakarta Post

The above is a more clearer list.

Re MBT, it is not cancelled. Rather it is being reviewed by the Parliamentary Commission on Defence. Of course, whether the Dutch will sell is a separate issue.

MLRS, over the last few years, they have visited and seen various models. From Polish Langustas to M270s to Astros have been mentioned.

Thanks, this link gives indeed a better overwiew.

Indonesia’s shopping list in 2012

Army
1. Main battle tank (MBT)
2. Multiple launch rocket system (MLRS)
3. Howitzer 155mm
4. Air defense missile
5. Assault and attack helicopters
6. Anoa armored personnel carrier

Navy
1. Searider rigid-inflatable boat (RIB)
2. Fast patrol boats
3. Guided-missile destroyer
4. Hydro-oceanography vessel
5. Barque tall ship to replace the existing KRI Dewaruci
6. Various auxiliary vessels, including fuel and landing ship tank
7. Anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopter

Air Force
1. Anti-aircraft missile
2. EC-725 Cougar helicopter
3. 24 units of F-16, grant from the United States, to be retrofitted
4. 4 units of C-130H heavy transport aircraft, grant from Australia, to be retrofitted

According a local blogspot site, TNI-AD is interested in the Ceasar. I'm not an defence expert, but i will choose for the South-African G6 Rhino, also because TNI-AD already has the Casspir.

Its also remarkable that TNI-AD will not receive additional KH-178 105 mm guns.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

According to detikNews : Cegah Korupsi, Kemenhan Perketat Pengawasan Pengadaan Alutsista we have to pay $280jt for the 100 Leopards after negotiating with the Netherlands.

 

[STURM]

According a local blogspot site, TNI-AD is interested in the Ceasar. I'm not an defence expert, but i will choose for the South-African G6 Rhino, also because TNI-AD already has the Casspir.

Yes but the Ceaser is lighter and a much smaller vehicle than the G-6, which is an important consideration. And it can also be airlifted by C-130s.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yes but the Ceaser is lighter and a much smaller vehicle than the G-6, which is an important consideration. And it can also be airlifted by C-130s.

Thats indeed an important point....

 

[Feanor]

It looks like Indonesian Marines will be taking delivery of 34 more BMP-3F vehicles in 2012, in addition to the 17 they already operate.

Pengembangan Armada RI Selesai 2014

I recall seeing a modified BTR-50 that they also plan on acquiring, does this mean they will operate a BTR-50 derivative and a BMP-3 side by side?

EDIT: lenta.ru article http://lenta.ru/news/2012/01/27/bmp3f/

 

[Ananda]

I recall seeing a modified BTR-50 that they also plan on acquiring, does this mean they will operate a BTR-50 derivative and a BMP-3 side by side?

BMP-3 is slotted as PT-76 replacement. The one that not finished being decided is what are the replacement for BTR-50. The Marines hopping to get more AAV-7 ex ROK, however seems it's still in limbo. Locally modified BTR-50 derivatives just like I posted on the post 109 is gaining momentum. But it's still need to be finished out I believe for final design. The design used BT-50 derivatives, with underbelly close to BMP-2 and armored of AAV-7 design. So have to be seen yet the final design.

 

[Feanor]

BMP-3 is slotted as PT-76 replacement. The one that not finished being decided is what are the replacement for BTR-50. The Marines hopping to get more AAV-7 ex ROK, however seems it's still in limbo. Locally modified BTR-50 derivatives just like I posted on the post 109 is gaining momentum. But it's still need to be finished out I believe for final design. The design used BT-50 derivatives, with underbelly close to BMP-2 and armored of AAV-7 design. So have to be seen yet the final design.

Then how many total BMP-3s would be necessary? Also are enough BTR-50 hulls available to modify, or would they need to acquire additional ones from Russia or Ukraine?

Finally Khlopotov posted in his blog that the T-90 is still being considered for purchase by Indonesia. Is there truth to this? He often has good info, but he's also fairly biased at times, so I was curious if you knew anything.

EDIT: My earlier post was wrong, Indonesia should have received 20 BMP-3F up until now, and is getting 34 more this year.

 

[Ananda]

Then how many total BMP-3s would be necessary? Also are enough BTR-50 hulls available to modify, or would they need to acquire additional ones from Russia or Ukraine?

Finally Khlopotov posted in his blog that the T-90 is still being considered for purchase by Indonesia. Is there truth to this? He often has good info, but he's also fairly biased at times, so I was curious if you knew anything.

EDIT: My earlier post was wrong, Indonesia should have received 20 BMP-3F up until now, and is getting 34 more this year.

Right now only one batalion of PT-76 left operating. So those 54 BMP-3 will replace that batalion. The other batalion is consists of AMX-10P. It's relatively new (from early 90's), thus the operatibility still relatively good but the Marines did not like AMX-10. Whether it will be replaced will have to be sen. But the assesment so far by the Marines for BMP-3, they love it.

For the APC/IFV now there's the questions. No official plan on what will be done with Marines Amphibious APC/IFV. The Marines APC/IFV consist of BTR-50 (made bulk of it), BMP-2, BTR-80, and AAV-7. There's enough hull of BMP-50 to make at least 2 batalion. But whether the modification of BTR-50 (BTR-50 derivatives) is the one they're going to choose. No official possition on that. From what I heard, the Marines actually wants BMP-3 as their standard tanks, and AAV-7 as their standard APC. Some rumour in here talking about Pindad actually in process on gaining license for AAV-7 or AAV-7 technology. But no confirmation on this.

Yes the T-90 still in running for Indonesian first MBT. The MBT procurement now really a political saga in Indonesia now. Some says this's due to the amount of lobbyst that MBT producers conducted in Indonesia right. The stand now, the Army (TNI-AD) wants Leo-2. The Parliement (especially the oposition) wants T-90, and the ( according to the rumours) president circle wants K1A1. The process still going, Rheinmetal, Hyundai Rotem, and Roboronexport (on behalf Russian producer) all try to convince the parties in Indonesia that they will provide some kind of Tech Transfer (ToT) to Pindad if their respective MBT being choosen. Pindad it self seems so far more inclined to either Leo-2 or K1A1 since they want to get German 120 MM gun and the 120 mm Nato ammo technology (K1A1 basically use German gun). Again will have to be seen, but seems will be decided in near term.

Don't you love 'democracy system', they sure can muddle everything