greenies

[t68]

Whalers detain WA trio, govt urged to act - Yahoo!7

Reckon the Japanese should just treat them as pirates; technically they are trying to take over the ship, keep them on board and put them in Japanese Gaol that teach them. Armed Japanese ships pht
Bloody greenies

 

[SASWanabe]

Cant agree more, in australian waters or not the vessel is Japanese flagged and therefore japanese territory, the Greenies acted illegally and in my oppinion the Japanese ship would be well within its rights to take them back to Japan and have them charged.

 

[MrConservative]

These guys must be even greater muppets than that idiot Pete Bethuen and his antics two years ago. Don't these morons understand that all they are doing is keeping the issue alive as the Japanese would/must require a face saving / negotiated wind-down whereby they finish their "research" around the same time as the whaling fleet nears it use by date.

Pete Bethuen is certainly in no hurry to return to a Japanese jail - these two dorks are going to find out the hard way that earth mummy state ain't gonna save them when an example is going to be set.

 

[Todjaeger]

Cant agree more, in australian waters or not the vessel is Japanese flagged and therefore japanese territory, the Greenies acted illegally and in my oppinion the Japanese ship would be well within its rights to take them back to Japan and have them charged.

Not quite right. If the Japanese flagged vessel is in the naval service of Japan, then the vessel is Japanese territory, or if the vessel is in international waters and not exploiting the Australian EEZ.

Once a foreign vessel is outside the home waters (12 n miles IIRC) of a particular country, then the country which has the vessel offshore has drastically limited powers over the vessel. Within the EEZ there are some stop and search/detain options, but those are generally limite to if the vessel is being used to either illegally exploit the EEZ and/or traffic people/items into a country.

However, if the Japanese vessel is being run as a civilian-operated security vessel not part of the JMSDF, and the vessel was within Australian home waters, then the trio should be returned to Australia to face charges relating to their forced entry onto the Japanese vessel.

Speaking more broadly, piracy has not been as common as most people think, until the situation around the Horn of Africa got to the point where the pirates were striking vessels far out to sea. Piracy is a crime which occurs in international waters, not in the home waters of nations.

Personally what I think should happen is that Gov't send some legal people to go and sit down with some of these environmental groups and explain to them the legal realities which the groups appear to be either too stupid of idealistic to realize. That IMO should also be accompanied with the admonishment that if the group and/or members opt to violate Australian, Japanese, and/or international law, the Australian Gov't will act to ensure that treaty obligations are upheld with respect to access to Australians, but Gov't will not act to free them.

 

[t68]

Talk about a diplomatic incident, these people put themselves in this position, now the green are throwing there weight around trying to force the PM to personally intervene, bob brown will get his way just when things were getting good between Australia and Japan.

Wonder if this will have implications with defence co-operation in the near future.

Whalers detain WA trio, govt urged to act

Takem back to Japan let them rot in gaol.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Personally what I think should happen is that Gov't send some legal people to go and sit down with some of these environmental groups and explain to them the legal realities which the groups appear to be either too stupid of idealistic to realize. That IMO should also be accompanied with the admonishment that if the group and/or members opt to violate Australian, Japanese, and/or international law, the Australian Gov't will act to ensure that treaty obligations are upheld with respect to access to Australians, but Gov't will not act to free them.

They are more than aware of the law and how they break it but do so anyway to achieve high media publicity. That is one of the cornerstones of the whole protest movement.

And then again if you have people who believe this:

Forest Rescue issued a statement saying they had "come from the forests of Australia" to defend the whales.

Then they might not be very receptive to logical and rational persuasion...

 

[Todjaeger]

They are more than aware of the law and how they break it but do so anyway to achieve high media publicity. That is one of the cornerstones of the whole protest movement.

In the US, there are various conspiracy charges which are available for use against those who aid and abet those committing crimes.

Having the media outlets of Sea Sheperd and affiliated groups arrested and charged with various conspiracy charges (assuming the various charges are available) if they had foreknowledge of the plan to break the law, and/or aided in planning or carrying out the illegal activity, might well put a damper on their enthusiasm for attracting attention.

Or making things potentially more interesting, if the entire media and support infrastructure is there is assist groups which are intent on violating the law, have the entire organization declared a criminal enterprise and shut it/them down.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

In the US, there are various conspiracy charges which are available for use against those who aid and abet those committing crimes.

Having the media outlets of Sea Sheperd and affiliated groups arrested and charged with various conspiracy charges (assuming the various charges are available) if they had foreknowledge of the plan to break the law, and/or aided in planning or carrying out the illegal activity, might well put a damper on their enthusiasm for attracting attention.

Proving conspiracy is very hard to do because by its very nature any participants tend to keep their involvement secret. Besides conspiracy to board a vessel for the purposes of protest is hardly most wanted territory.

Or making things potentially more interesting, if the entire media and support infrastructure is there is assist groups which are intent on violating the law, have the entire organization declared a criminal enterprise and shut it/them down.

Somehow I doubt you would have much success with that. Unless you were Hitler.

 

[gf0012-aust]

if you weren't invited onboard then you're trespassing.

trespass or piracy works for me.

all these idiots have done is force the japanese to save face.

 

[the road runner]

Greens rant ..I have to say that the Greens are one Political party that Brainstorm an Idea like,lets put Insulation into houses ,not be liable for the works done and when people die from our miss management,we are not responsible.Some of there Ministers should be charged with manslaughter.Peter Garret for ONE!

Or how they want to bait our National Parks with poisons to kill feral animals ,yes thats a great idea lets introduce poisons to our National parks.Kill animals with poisons and then let native animals eat the dead poisoned feral>Another Brainstorming idea from the GREENS.

People who impose there will on others,just because they think their ideas are the way we should live.The Japanese have been a sea faring nation ,and have always hunted whales to feed there population.Geesh i eat Cows,Lamb ,why?because i like it,if they have different tastes than myself they should not be prosecuted for there cultural beliefs.

Those Bogans who gained access to the Japanese whaling boat should be charged,they know what they are doing,they know the rules of the sea ,and yet they carry on like a bunch of spoiled kids ,and whine till they get there way.

The Greens effect my way of life,when i Build,when i hunt ,when i fish,talk about Karl Marx in a koala suit!

 

[Todjaeger]

Proving conspiracy is very hard to do because by its very nature any participants tend to keep their involvement secret. Besides conspiracy to board a vessel for the purposes of protest is hardly most wanted territory.

Actually conspiracy is often not all that hard to prove. Especially if a group has a media component to it.

If the actions are those of a lone individual or small group (3-5) the conceivably they might buy, lease of steal the boat required to get to the security vessel, with things paid for in cash or using cheques, cards and lines of credit belonging to the individual members.

However, if the group or organization has property or equipment (like boats) and the boats are used for an illegal purpose, then either the group is supporting the illegal actions, or the people who utilized them for illegal purposes did so without proper authority and the group would then need to proceed with legal actions against its own membership.

Given the abundance of audio and video recording devices, and the tendency for protect groups to record their actions for later broadcast to attract attention and support, it could be quite easy for an investigation to turn up people discussing plans to locate and track a vessel to be boarded. Then steal/lease/buy the required equipment to board the vessel, etc. Unless everything is done in person and in cash, there should certainly be a data trail which can be traced.

Given that there is a group or groups which are attempting to force Australian foreign policy, I could see how Gov't might be interested in taking action.

As for shutting down an organization... If the organization functions to aid illegal actions, then the organization itself can become an accessory to the illegal activity.

The easiest why I have of illustrating what I mean is this:
A used car parts company (legal company/organization) regularly receives stolen car parts. If the business owner/staff are aware of this occurring, then the business could potentially be shut down and/or the owner & staff could be in legal trouble as well.

In the case of the three men who boarded the Japanese vessel, if the environmental group arranged transportation for the men to the Japanese vessel, then the group could be held responsible for the illegal boarding by the men.

There are of course a number of different factors which can come into play (International law, Australian or Japanese law, etc)

-Cheers

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Greens rant ..I have to say that the Greens are one Political party that Brainstorm an Idea like,lets put Insulation into houses ,not be liable for the works done and when people die from our miss management,we are not responsible.Some of there Ministers should be charged with manslaughter.Peter Garret for ONE!

What a load of tosh, popular nonsense believed by lots of people but still complete garbage. The Snowy Mountains Hydro Scheme killed 121 workers. Was that bad policy? The Sydney Harbour Bridge killed 16 workers. Was that bad policy?

The handful of deaths for the scale of work in the insulation program are not the fault of that policy. They are the fault of workplace safety in the construction industry. Which while not perfect Australia is one of the safest construction workplaces in the world.

That this issue was turned into a scandal in the media and politics demonstrates how stupid this country is not the fault of the insulation policy.

People who impose there will on others,just because they think their ideas are the way we should live.

That’s the nature of all politics be it conservative or progressive, red or green, etc. Of course the Greens being founded in the hippie peace movement and other anti-rational new left movements are just less rational. But they want to control your lives no less than most conservatives.

The Japanese have been a sea faring nation ,and have always hunted whales to feed there population.Geesh i eat Cows,Lamb ,why?because i like it,if they have different tastes than myself they should not be prosecuted for there cultural beliefs.

Well they don’t eat whale that much anymore. Besides in terms of their place in the ecosphere whales are not designed to be killed off. Whales are supposed to die of natural causes in the water so their bodies sink to the depths and feed the lower end of the sea chain. Killing them off is very harmful to the food chain. Killing cows, sheep and the many fish that are the basis of commercial fisheries is not so bad because these are species designed to out bread their predators. The only defence a cow has against a wolf is it will replace those cows eaten by the wolves with more calves.

Those Bogans who gained access to the Japanese whaling boat should be charged,they know what they are doing,they know the rules of the sea ,and yet they carry on like a bunch of spoiled kids ,and whine till they get there way.

Sure they are idiots.

The Greens effect my way of life,when i Build,when i hunt ,when i fish,talk about Karl Marx in a koala suit!

It’s not the Greens in their Koala suits that have never actually read Karl Marx that you have to worry about. It’s the rudderless cultural and political elites that are clinging to green ideology because they have nothing else to justify their control of society. Environmentally themed regulations for the suburbs are beyond ridiculous when they are all still powered by thermal generators burning coal. But they provide legitimacy for a huge swathe of government.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Actually conspiracy is often not all that hard to prove. Especially if a group has a media component to it.

Which is why so many conspiracies are exposed and prosecuted every year? Not.

In the case of the three men who boarded the Japanese vessel, if the environmental group arranged transportation for the men to the Japanese vessel, then the group could be held responsible for the illegal boarding by the men.

No they don’t. Because how do you prove that they were all in conspiracy to board the vessel? Just because they happened to be out there are sea is circumstantial. More evidence is needed such as a clear record of intent. The captain can just say I didn’t know they were going to board, we were just out there to take photos.

 

[the road runner]

What a load of tosh, popular nonsense believed by lots of people but still complete garbage. The Snowy Mountains Hydro Scheme killed 121 workers. Was that bad policy? The Sydney Harbour Bridge killed 16 workers. Was that bad policy?

Sorry Abe i was referring to the Insulation scheme,not snowy mountain or Harbour bridge project.No Workcover in those days,Technology in materials and Construction techniques have come along way.Just compare The Harbour bridge to Anzac bridge

The handful of deaths for the scale of work in the insulation program are not the fault of that policy. They are the fault of workplace safety in the construction industry. Which while not perfect Australia is one of the safest construction workplaces in the world.

I dont agree there.The reason for the Insulation Scheme was 2 fold.

1.It was an injection of funds(stimulus Package for economy) into the Construction Industry.As the industry was struggling at the time.

2.IT was to reduce heating costs/power bills,for home owners/housing commission/government buildings.

I just think the Money could have been better spent.Australian Standards (AS) and (BCA)Building Code Of Australia are 2 reasons our Construction Industry is one of the best in the world.

That this issue was turned into a scandal in the media and politics demonstrates how stupid this country is not the fault of the insulation policy.

The Problem is that Contractors who are license can be prosecuted.
People who come into the industry un licensed/un insured cannot be touched/prosecuted by governing body's.Only people with Licence can be held accountable.There were Cowboys coming out of the woodwork,taking on Government contracts.This is a Policy Problem in my opinion.I see it as a double standard.

Well they don’t eat whale that much anymore.

Sure they do,my best mate is Japanese.He loves the stuff.They serve it to kids in school to,its on there lunch menu.But to be fare,older Japanese people are the ones who see it as a culture,the younger generation are not as keen on whale meat.I think over time the Japanese will stop whaling.

The point being is that People from all around the world have different cultures and eat different animal for what ever reason.I think its rich telling others what they can and cannot do ,when it comes to eating animals.I for one am not a fan of hunting whales.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The Snowy Mountains Hydro Scheme killed 121 workers. Was that bad policy? The Sydney Harbour Bridge killed 16 workers. Was that bad policy?

Well its a tad more complicated than that. While your point is certain valid (and the media jumped all over it), if the government was to do it again they would probably take measures to ensure safe practices, quality and verification of the work. More bad implementation.

. Which while not perfect Australia is one of the safest construction workplaces in the world.

Except when the government is giving out money for nothing and a million new installers spring up overnight, many of which use child or apprentice labour to install. A single death in an an area of construction is enough to bring major players down. poor implementation, similar to the issues with solar panels and other government initiatives. At least with solar panels you generally had to have a licence electrician to sign off which meant there was some accountability and checking.

Back to whaling.

I think if they are within territorial waters of Australia they must be processed in Australia. As it appears it was in the contiguous zone its a bit more of a grey area where countries will have to sort it out. Could set a bad precedent if the Japanese get to process them yet a local case could be embarrassing if they can't get anything to stick.

I would hate the idea if anything greater than 12 NM effectively becomes international waters (ie the domain of the flagged ship). I would also hate to see these people get off scott free.

They should get done with at least with trespassing, most likely with something else, I'm sure there are numerous violations.