Royal New Zealand Air Force

Sea Toby

New Member
So Toby you now believe it would be practical that around 1500 hours (35%) of our air mobility tasking would require us to use 2 aircraft to do something that can be simply done by at least another couple of aircraft that do actually exist?

:eek:nfloorl:

How are you going with loading the NH-90 into your magic tanker?
The NH90 is also too high to fit in a C-2, and C-130 as well. A five meter high helicopter has to be disassembled a bit to fit in a A400M cargo bay which height is four meters. Notice the An-124 which delivered New Zealand's NH90 has a cargo bay height of 4.4 meters. Why pick on the KC390? Its cargo bay dimensions are larger than a C-130J.

As for costs, a C-130J costs more, and the A-400M much, much more. As far as aircraft availability, surely two jet engines is easier to maintain and more sustainable than four props.
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The NH90 is also too high to fit in a A400M, C-2, and C-130 as well. A five meter high helicopter won't fit in a A400M cargo bay which height is four meters. Why pick on the KC390? Its cargo bay dimensions are larger than a C-130J.

As for costs, a C-130J costs more, and the A-400M much, much more. As far as aircraft availability, surely two jet engines is easier to maintain and more sustainable than four props.
Rubbish Toby. The tail rotor blades of the NH-90 are removed and the main landing gear shocks are set to minimum ground clearance setting prior to the aircraft being loaded into the A400M.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The NH90 is also too high to fit in a A400M, C-2, and C-130 as well. A five meter high helicopter won't fit in a A400M cargo bay which height is four meters. Why pick on the KC390? Its cargo bay dimensions are larger than a C-130J.

As for costs, a C-130J costs more, and the A-400M much, much more. As far as aircraft availability, surely two jet engines is easier to maintain and more sustainable than four props.
With respect to the C-390, to properly compare it, the comparison should be made to the C-130J or C-130XJ, or perhaps even the smaller C-27J and C-295.

The range, cargo dimensions and size/weight load-outs for the C-2, A-400M and C-17 all put them into strategic/heavylift.

Now so far, the information out for the C-390 are goals that Embraer have in terms of the aircraft's capabilities. Embraer might exceed those capabilities goals, but IMO it is more likely that the design will fall short, either having less range, less cargo capacity, a higher cost, or some combination of the above.

Except for the A-400M, the other designs are all already in service with various air forces, which means that actual performance capabilities are either know or can be readily found out. Also the maintenance requirements, support costs and the other associated information is available. Incidentally, prop engines are typically more fuel efficient than jet engines, which is amongst the reasons why the A-400M has props vs. the jet engines of the C-5 or C-17.

Now what needs to be determined is the NZDF/Gov't air transport requirements. Such a document is expected in 2015 (anyone know what its taking so bloody long?) but it is expected to require a mix of tactical and strategic lift. The C-390 as Embraer currently have it envisioned does not look like it would meet the strategic lift requirement, in terms of weight, range and volume carried in air lift.

As an example, an NH-90 could be carried aboard the A-400M, but the tail rotor and main rotor would need to be removed for transport. A NH-90 could only be carried aboard a C-390 if the thing was basically disassembled as the suggested internal volume of the C-390 cargo bay is ~3.45 m wide, but the hull of an NH-90 is 3.6 m wide and the height of the cargo bay is ~ 1 m too low.

One of the other outsized cargos which the NZDF likely wishes to be able to airlift is the NZLAV. If the C-390 does meet the weight spec (as seen with the A-400M, there is no guarantee of success here) then the Embraer aircraft might be able to transport the NZLAV. However, in order for it to do so successfully the C-390 floor strength needs to be sufficient for the stresses of something as heavy as the NZLAV (~22 tons). There is also the little matter of whether an NZLAV would fit. With a proposed cargo bay height of 2.9 m, that would leave 2.6 cm (yes centimetres) clearance between the top of an NZLAV and the cargo bay ceing. And this is also assuming that there any no other low spots which the NZLAV would encounter while being loaded into the cargo bay.

What this means is that the C-390, if it is flying when NZ begins its selection process, might be a candidate for a tactical airlifter. Given that NZ would likely need to start the selection process in 2015 if not sooner (i.e. before the report is released) I do not see the C-390 as being a viable candidate for the RNZAF as an airlifter. At some later date, if/when the C-390 has reached at least IOC with some other air arm, perhaps. Right now though, it is just not realistic IMO.

-Cheers
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I shall admit a A400M range is longer, but for more than twice the price:
30 tonnes 2450 nautical miles
20 tonnes 3450 nautical miles
ferry 4,700 nautical miles

The C2 and KC390 individually don't match the A400M in range.
What according to Wikipedia Toby. The figures you cut and pasted from do not differentiate between a tactical mission profile and a logistical mission profile with respect to range/payload. And you clearly do not know the difference.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
What according to Wikipedia Toby. The figures you cut and pasted from do not differentiate between a tactical mission profile and a logistical mission profile with respect to range/payload. And you clearly do not know the difference.
I know Wiki isn't the best source, but its readily available on the web. Unfortunately, other figures aren't readily available on the web. Furthermore, those who do know what these figures are could post them on the web but don't. So those of us who do wish to learn can't. And I have noticed you are more interested in knocking my limited knowledge than informing us what those figures are. Most likely because you yourself don't know the comparison figures either.

If you wish to have long range maybe New Zealand should lease cargo versions of the Boeing 747s many air cargo companies have in their fleets instead. But you don't get short field usage with Boeing 747s.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I know Wiki isn't the best source, but its readily available on the web. Unfortunately, other figures aren't readily available on the web. Furthermore, those who do know what these figures are could post them on the web but don't. So those of us who do wish to learn can't. And I have noticed you are more interested in knocking my limited knowledge than informing us what those figures are. Most likely because you yourself don't know the comparison figures either.

If you wish to have long range maybe New Zealand should lease cargo versions of the Boeing 747s many air cargo companies have in their fleets instead. But you don't get short field usage with Boeing 747s.
It is less about figures and more about role, and the relevant figures themselves are available from the internet in many cases.

Tactical lift generally covers short- to medium distances, topping out at up to around 2,000 n miles. Strategic lift starts to get into moving personnel and kit long distances (2,000 n miles+), as well as moving large tonnages/volumes of cargo. In this case it often is talking about 'outsized' cargo like helicopters, armoured vehicles, engineering equipment, etc.

With the suggestion of a move to B747-F's that would certainly allow for strategic range, and large weights/volumes of cargo. However it would most likely still fail to allow outsized military cargoes, since most helicopters and vehicles cannot fit through a cargo door sized for a standard shipping pallet.

As mentioned repeatedly, an aircraft with the expected size and performance of the C-390 from Embraer most closely matches the performance of the C-130 which is a large tactical airlifter and would therefore not meet the NZDF's airlift requirements on its own unless the strategic airlift requirements were dropped.

As for the actual merits of the C-390 design, IMO it has none as yet. Until the design actually gets airborne, it remains an open question whether it will ever stop being a 'paper' airplane. Once it gets airborne, then some real performance figures might start to come in. And again looking at the Airbus Military A-400M programme, experience in designing and building commercial airliners does not automatically translate in military air lifters, and that designs can easily fall short of their requested or required parameters. If Embraer were to run into the same sort of issue which the A-400M encountered leading to cargo capacity of only ~80% of specification, that would leave the C-390 with a max payload of ~19 tons, or the same as a C-130.

Given how tight the NZDF defence budget is, there is little money to be spent aiding development of aircraft which might never even be built. This is why the NZDF tends to look at MOTS and COTS systems Until the C-390 actually enters production and service, it would not be either.

I would also think it would be obvious that ordering a US or Euro airlifter can allow the RNZAF to 'plug-in' to some existing supply changes for aircraft parts, etc. Until Embraer really enters the military market and begins establish facilities overseas, then more common airlifters can allow someone to plug-in to friendly/allied logistical support for aircraft.

-Cheers
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The JASDF have not finished their testing program and released their official findings - that is why there are no real objective figures. No one outside of Kawasaki Aerospace, JASDF, or the Defence Ministry really knows. For example the C-2 ferry range is as yet a pure estimate at 10000km.

Toby. I have read a number of preliminary reports contradicting themselves in both english and my fairly crappy japanese - the reports give inconsistent results. For example Kawasaki has quoted a 15 metric tonne range for the C-2 in "normal" flight conditions of 8500km iirc. That was in local print media (Chunichi Shinbum) following the first round of testing last year and in Japanese. The internet is full of similar numbers - especially amogst Japanese defence blogs. The Japanese MoD last year released figures regarding a tactical range of 6500km for 12 metric tonnes for the C-2.

Toby I inform plenty of folk around here. Whether you personally choose to comprehend it is an entirely different matter. Yes - my threshold for nonsense is very low. Leasing 747's for long range work ... can you imagine my thoughts on that.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Which brings me to my other, wider thought as I read this thread: How much longer is going to take the NZ Gov to realise that 1.1% of GDP on defence isn't going to pay for their own stated requirements/ambitions?
Mate thats a bit political but you have asked a very pertinent question which I will attempt to answet whilst not upsetting the mods.

IIRC up until the1991 NZG budget as a generalisation Vote: Defence received around 2% GDP. The 1991 budget was the start of massive government cost cutting across the board and since then successive governments have seen Defence as a non urgent necessity. In NZ defence policy and what funding is actually allocated to defence is decided by the cabinet. Furthermore since the Muldoon years starting in 1975 various PMs have taken a very close interest in the kit that NZDF receives or doesn't receive as the case maybe (e.g., Clark 2001 F16 cancellation). So since 1991 the polllies have intentionally cut back NZDF, to beyond the bone, for short sighted ideological reasons at the cost of lost capability and expertise which have resulted in increased financial, and other costs to NZDF and the nation in the long term.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Not only do tankers tend to expand the range of transport aircraft significantly, adding fuel tanks under the wings do as well. Range shouldn't be all that important, cargo size and weight should be more vital. While a NH90 won't fit into a KC390, I wonder whether a A-109 will? I figure if a LAVIII can fit into a Hercules, I have seen the videos and images, with the KC390 slightly larger cargo bay, it will fit into a KC390 as well.

I am sure New Zealand will buy what it requires whatever it is.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Not only do tankers tend to expand the range of transport aircraft significantly, adding fuel tanks under the wings do as well. Range shouldn't be all that important, cargo size and weight should be more vital. While a NH90 won't fit into a KC390, I wonder whether a A-109 will? I figure if a LAVIII can fit into a Hercules, I have seen the videos and images, with the KC390 slightly larger cargo bay, it will fit into a KC390 as well.

I am sure New Zealand will buy what it requires whatever it is.
NZDF will not go the KC 390 way for all the reasons already outlined by others. It's not going to fly in Kiwi colours. We don't have the money to follow a risky path like that and every cent we do have has to be spent very carefully. The mandarins in treasury have an overly too much say in NZDF purchasing and capability and like the pollies they do not understand what is needed and why. So what ever kit we get will be politically and fiscally very tightly controlled and motivated regardless of what the NZDF, experts who are the most qualified to judge capability and need, will reccomend. A snowball has a greater chance of surviving in hell than NZDF have of actually get anywhere close to the kit it needs for fullfill current requirements.
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The mandarins in treasury have an overly too much say in NZDF purchasing and capability and like the pollies they do not understand what is needed and why. So what ever kit we get will be politically and fiscally very tightly controlled and motivated regardless of what the NZDF, experts who are the most qualified to judge capability and need, will reccomend.
In truth the real power lies with the Finance Minister and Prime Minister. If the FM can hoodwink the PM then it is game over.

Case in point. 20 years ago we did double the amount of fisheries patrol tasking with our EZZ. Then DefMin Warren Cooper allowed the Finance Minister Ruth Richardson to cull the 3 F27s that, operated out of Wigram AFB (which she/they then closed a year or two later mind you). The three F27’s had enough inshore tasking around the South Island to keep them busy.

The F27 was technically limited in this surveillance role. The range and loiter was not that flash, not that great flying low.level, avionics fit was configured for its previous Nav/Comms training role, patrols were daylight only and usually relied on eyeball Mk1. They were old an needed loads of hanger time – still they managed collectively around a third of fisheries patrol tasking on behalf of MFish each year – some 900 flight hours. Thus they provided a useful presence and deterrence in areas not frequently covered by the Orions. Nothing was done even in the face of intense lobbying. Eight years later the maritime review recommended that the missing 900 hours of Fisheries surveillance be restored + a customs tasking should also be provided. Again the respective government have done nothing about it until this year – even then the process is glacial. The lost export receipts from illegal fishing within the NZ EEZ over the last decade runs into significant amounts of money that would have easily paid for a modest capability – outlined in the MRV/2000. Not to mention the environmental / depleted fisheries stocks.

In another example of that time Warren Cooper was told by the Chiefs that the Bae Hawk was the best Advanced Trainer for the RNZAF and not the MB-339CB following the extensive evaluation. Richardson in Cabinet when comparing the $277m v $364m price tag over-ruled him and convinced PM Bolger that the Macchi was it – take it or leave it.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
NZDF will not go the KC 390 way for all the reasons already outlined by others. It's not going to fly in Kiwi colours. We don't have the money to follow a risky path like that and every cent we do have has to be spent very carefully. The mandarins in treasury have an overly too much say in NZDF purchasing and capability and like the pollies they do not understand what is needed and why. So what ever kit we get will be politically and fiscally very tightly controlled and motivated regardless of what the NZDF, experts who are the most qualified to judge capability and need, will reccomend. A snowball has a greater chance of surviving in hell than NZDF have of actually get anywhere close to the kit it needs for fullfill current requirements.
Great debate - lots of good data 'flying' around (pun intended). However Ngatimozarts post strikes a chord - my highly trained 'gut feel predictor' tells me the pollies will once again trump any findings from the intended air-mobility review, regardless of how mature those findings might be!

I see us ending up with one type for Herc & B757 replacement - the C-130J (most likely lower cost C-130XJ) as that's a type NZ pollies 'understand'. Yes even our pollies can / will comprehend the excellent service we have squeezed out of our H's.

For urgent 'heavy-lift' they'll go for the option of sponging off allies, or commercial lease if it's an option in the circumstances. For less urgent 'heavy-lift' they'll opt for sea-transport by RNZN with a bit of 'ferry flight' stuff at the other end depending on the tasking & how close the RNZN can get them.

The only potential 'extra' may be a small number of a 'suitable' commercial type used for low-risk domestic & Sth Pacific type work.

As for C-130(x)J numbers - no point in speculating - but I'd say we'll manage to get 5-6.

Anyway - I'll just sit tight for 5-6 years now safe in the knowledge I'm always right - it's only the wife that doesn't grasp that! :rotfl
 
Mate thats a bit political but you have asked a very pertinent question which I will attempt to answet whilst not upsetting the mods.
OK, I'm a little bit bemused because there wasn't any attempt at being political, nor any attempt at a snarky back-hander aimed at a particular party. I have no personal preference between Labour and National parties because I have no vested interest, but from reading my comment I can see how the tone is missed.

I appreciate the contextual information, and it fits with what I read here regarding NZDF funding. In dollar terms expenditure has been increasing marginally year on year since 1991 (but I'm not certain it even matches inflation), but decreasing sharply through the 1990's and flat since 2002 as a percentage of GDP. Just as a point of comparison over the same period with a defence force and economy most readers here would know, ADF expenditure shows it was steady as a percentage of GDP, but increasing significantly in dollar terms.

I have been following the conversation in the NZ threads for some time and was inspired to read the NZDF DCP 2011 and I couldn't see how the capabilities desired by the politicians (the DCP is essentially a political document) could be reconciled with putting the NZDF on a fixed, low income until at least 2020 and maybe beyond.
The thrust of my comment wasn't necessarily "put the budget up...(grumble, grumble)", but rather saying that at some point there is going to have to be a re-examination of capabilities which will result in one of three outcomes:
  1. Defence budget will be raised to fund the capability desired by government,
  2. Govenment will modify capability in order to fit within the existing budget,
  3. Nothing will happen, and capability will continue to suffer by being hollowed out or neglected by funding shortfalls.
I know money is tight and raiding the widows and orphans fund isn't the answer, and most in this thread would know far, far better than I would the state of the national conversation about the NZDF, but there needs to be a (hopefully constructive) conversation about what the roles and priorities of the NZDF are, how it is achieved and how it is funded.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Interim Advance Pilot Training Capability

Now don't too excited as you can't get any further detail without logging into the GETS site...

Anyway - on the link below found ref 35097 for 'Supply of Interim Advance Pilot Training Capability (IAPTC) for the RNZAF' that has a 'respond by' date of 2nd Feb (next week).

GETS - Government Electronic Tenders Service

So looks like we should see a short-term option taken soon to fill gap between B200 lease ending & eventual arrival of single-engine turboprop adv. trainer (expected around 2014-2015).

Being realistic I guess it may see an extension of B200 lease.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Now don't too excited as you can't get any further detail without logging into the GETS site...

Anyway - on the link below found ref 35097 for 'Supply of Interim Advance Pilot Training Capability (IAPTC) for the RNZAF' that has a 'respond by' date of 2nd Feb (next week).

GETS - Government Electronic Tenders Service

So looks like we should see a short-term option taken soon to fill gap between B200 lease ending & eventual arrival of single-engine turboprop adv. trainer (expected around 2014-2015).

Being realistic I guess it may see an extension of B200 lease.
Bingo Gibbo!!

It is something that has to be done on the Govt paperwork side I understand - so it ends up on GETS all official like - box ticked - B200's for two more years please. Probably they just changed the dates from the last time it appeared on GETS
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Bingo Gibbo!!

It is something that has to be done on the Govt paperwork side I understand - so it ends up on GETS all official like - box ticked - B200's for two more years please. Probably they just changed the dates from the last time it appeared on GETS
Just as well I love the B200 then! Mind you, I like the B350 a whole lot more...:dance

Vote B350 for MEPT / SR-MPA :hul
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It looks very much like the USAF is going to cancel their C27 program so there will likely be C27s on the market for maybe cheap prices that the NZG might be tempted.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
It looks very much like the USAF is going to cancel their C27 program so there will likely be C27s on the market for maybe cheap prices that the NZG might be tempted.
I just said the same thing on the RAAF thread ;) Perhaps we could get them as Foreign Military aid from the US Gov that would be the best result.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I just said the same thing on the RAAF thread ;) Perhaps we could get them as Foreign Military aid from the US Gov that would be the best result.
I know and I had read the article on I think DT last night or Defence News. Didn't mean to steal your thunder. I think it was a bit of a forgone conclusion because IIRC this was discussed in another forum I lurk in, or maybe the RAAF thread, and it was using the Microsoft getting rid of the opposition model. This is where you buy a competitor and then close them down by assimilation or similar. Apparently the USAF didn't want the US Army competition and managed to have the C27 program transferred across to it. Now the compulsory budget cuts have played into it's hands and "surprise" 'in order to save money and cut costs the C27 program is being shut down because other assetts can deliver the same yada yada yadda.'

FMS would be good and we are getting on well with US at the moment so it wouldn't be a silly move. Talk in other forum I lurk in is that at some stahe NZG is going to have hard word put on them to up the ante on defence capability and spending which IMHO would be good. It won't be tomorrow but some time in the medium term future.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
I know and I had read the article on I think DT last night or Defence News. Didn't mean to steal your thunder. I think it was a bit of a forgone conclusion because IIRC this was discussed in another forum I lurk in, or maybe the RAAF thread, and it was using the Microsoft getting rid of the opposition model. This is where you buy a competitor and then close them down by assimilation or similar. Apparently the USAF didn't want the US Army competition and managed to have the C27 program transferred across to it. Now the compulsory budget cuts have played into it's hands and "surprise" 'in order to save money and cut costs the C27 program is being shut down because other assetts can deliver the same yada yada yadda.'

FMS would be good and we are getting on well with US at the moment so it wouldn't be a silly move. Talk in other forum I lurk in is that at some stahe NZG is going to have hard word put on them to up the ante on defence capability and spending which IMHO would be good. It won't be tomorrow but some time in the medium term future.
No thunder theft took place I was merely commenting on how we had the same idea,

It is a shame about the C-27's they would of added a great capability at what would have to of been savings, though due to the economy of scale in the sheer number of Hercules operated perhaps they are not as significant as hoped.

Well it works out well for their partners and allies, 10-12 to the RAAF and 4 to the RNZAF will work out quite nicely thank you, I think transport aircraft are always a "safe" purchase in the public arena so I can't imagine to much issue there, it all boils down to whether it is an offer that the Gov's can't afford to refuse, I wonder if the Defence staff are quick enough to get it on the agenda with the Def Min talks over the next couple of days.
 
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