The Iraqi Army

CheeZe

Active Member
With the pull out of US troops (with the exception of 50,000 advisors) and the end of US combat operations in Iraq, I feel I ought to ask the greater community what they know about the level of the Iraqi Army's proficiency.

For example, to what level are they trained? Is the training the same for all recruits or does it differ from unit to unit? How effective are their operations without the presence of foreign advisors? Do they conduct combined arms operations with their armor or just infantry operations?

I'm looking for some idea of what the Iraqi army is capable of since there's very little (which I can find) about their capabilities. I realize operational security prevents some of the information from being released so I just want some general information.

Thanks
 

Mr.Marnier

New Member
Well according to this article the Iraqi forces seem to have grown to a reasonable force now numbering around 192,000 (Army) with 5000 US trained Special Forces personnel with fairly extensive counter terrorism training. So yes, there is different training between various units.

See the following: "Iraqis-stand-ready-to-defend-their-own"

You may also be interested in the following article which is packed with current information on the current Iraqi forces and their development written by an ex US Navy intelligence specialist:

See the following: "Iraqi-Security-Forces-Order-of-Battle-June-2011"
 
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CheeZe

Active Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
Great link to the Order of Battle! Thanks!

Does anyone know what weapons they use? Is it the M16 and other NATO chambered weapons? Kalashnikov (and clones) and other WarPac weapons? Or a mix of the two? If so, are units issued exclusively one or the other? I'm curious to know what the standard assault rifle, SAW, etc is and how many are in a squad/section, platoon, company. Do they use RPGs?

Thanks
 

Mr.Marnier

New Member
Would require quite a bit of digging to answer some of your questions (or intimate local knowledge from someone in the region) however obviously the US is the major backbone for the rebuilding of the Iraqi forces, as such, there are a number of American made weapon systems being utilized by the Iraqi forces including:

  • M198 Howitzer 155mm Guns
  • M16 / M4 Assault Rifles
  • M1A1 Abrams Tanks

In addition, the order of battle I posted above shows the Iraqis will still have a mix of equipment delivered or on order including:

  • Mi17 Helicopters
  • Mirage F1 Fighters
  • F16's

And that article sites quite a few more interesting assets they are acquiring.

However, another good article from the author of the order of battle does give an interesting insight into current Iraqi capabilities and how they have a long way to go in terms of being a fully self sufficient force, regardless of when they are being required to do so with the US withdraw.

Again, mods if you would like to post the link that is fine, the term to search is "The-Missing-Links-A-Realistic-Appraisal-of-the-Iraqi-Military"
 

Mr.Marnier

New Member
The order of battle above does include a lot of info on current weapons being used, the Iraqi army is shifting to using the M16 and M4 Carbine, including M203mm grenade launchers.

From what i can gather they are still using Russian made PKM machine guns for squad support weapons, and also retaining the use of the RPG-7 for AT duties.
 

Belesari

New Member
Great link to the Order of Battle! Thanks!

Does anyone know what weapons they use? Is it the M16 and other NATO chambered weapons? Kalashnikov (and clones) and other WarPac weapons? Or a mix of the two? If so, are units issued exclusively one or the other? I'm curious to know what the standard assault rifle, SAW, etc is and how many are in a squad/section, platoon, company. Do they use RPGs?

Thanks
I believe they use M4/M16's as standard but that can vary especially in the spec ops troops. Rpg's probably.

While the IA is well trained probably better than any currently in the ME besides the Israelies they have ALOT of land to cover and mostly atleast for the future are going to be buidy with COIN activities.
 

surpreme

Member
The Iraqi Army has come along way from 2003. The units are looking like a professional army thanks to the heavy US training. The task the Iraqi Army has to do is a strain on its force mainly COIN. IA has hit insurgent hard and made some deal with some insurgents.
Here a list of major problems 1. Finding ways to screen out Shite or Sunni
2. Individual helping Shite or Sunni
3. Not willing to fight against certain insurgents
4. Getting the correct equipment
5. Close air susport need more of Iraqi not US
6. Maintain current equipment
7. Need more equipment such as truck, jeeps,
Helicopters, artillery, and etc
 

Lionhearti

New Member
I believe they use M4/M16's as standard but that can vary especially in the spec ops troops. Rpg's probably.

While the IA is well trained probably better than any currently in the ME besides the Israelies they have ALOT of land to cover and mostly atleast for the future are going to be buidy with COIN activities.
Um your forgetting about a few things
1. The Egyptian Army or the Syrian Army. Egyptian army has over 1000 M1Abrams and is well trained by the U.S for years. They recieve the best in Russian and American equipment and there Special Forces are trained by the SEAL's themselves
2. The real question is Iraq strong enough to deter Iran
 

CheeZe

Active Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
I'm curious to know why the decision was made to re-equip the IA with NATO/American equipment rather than retain the Soviet/Russian/WarPac equipment.

Also, I presume that their units are based on the American force organization? If not, how large is say a squad, platoon, company, etc?

1. Finding ways to screen out Shite or Sunni
I don't see what use that would be if the plan is to avoid sectarian violence. By making that known, it would seem to reinforce the pervading tensions between the two sects.

2. Individual helping Shite or Sunni
Eh?
3. Not willing to fight against certain insurgents
Clarify? Source?
4. Getting the correct equipment
What do you mean?
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
What do you mean?
Surpreme does say "7. Need more equipment such as truck, jeeps, Helicopters, artillery, and etc " and i would have thought it would have answered your question :p

Personally i think the Iraqi military is going to be substantially better than what it was under Saddam, better trained and better equipped for the job they have to do, i mean realistically they should focus on counter insurgency (especially after the US removal of troops) realistically they may be lacking in specific areas its not exactly necessary to be a fully kitted out military ready to fight conventional wars. If you read the 'kit list' above it seems like the Iraqi military (given time) would actually be a reasonable fighting force in the region, M1A1 Abrams tanks are the best tanks the Iraqi army has ever had (i expect the version of the M1A1 they will recieve will be better than the export variants of the T55 and T72 they had before)

Does anyone have any updates on the F16 sale to Iraq? Last i heard it was agreed that they would buy 18 (then maybe another 18, i'm not 100% sure)
 

CheeZe

Active Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
Actually, it doesn't. Does correct mean that what they have is unsuited for the job or simply not what the Americans want them to use? If the former, I was hoping for more explanation. If the latter, likewise.

The list is really unhelpful as it adds nothing I can't find in a news report or wikipedia. No details, no explanations. Same as wbt40's post. Doesn't give a reason, just an opinion.

I created this specifically for the Iraqi Army, don't go hijacking it with air force stuff :p

Having the Abrams is one thing, but the question remains how effectively they can use it and integrate such capabilities on a larger level with combined arms ops. Are they able to work with mech/motorised infantry in conventional warfare tactics such as an armor assault? Or these tanks simply used as mobile direct-fire support weapons?
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Actually, it doesn't. Does correct mean that what they have is unsuited for the job or simply not what the Americans want them to use? If the former, I was hoping for more explanation. If the latter, likewise.

The list is really unhelpful as it adds nothing I can't find in a news report or wikipedia. No details, no explanations. Same as wbt40's post. Doesn't give a reason, just an opinion.

I created this specifically for the Iraqi Army, don't go hijacking it with air force stuff :p

Having the Abrams is one thing, but the question remains how effectively they can use it and integrate such capabilities on a larger level with combined arms ops. Are they able to work with mech/motorised infantry in conventional warfare tactics such as an armor assault? Or these tanks simply used as mobile direct-fire support weapons?
wbt50s post has been deleted due to it essentially being a 'one liner' by the moderators so i couldn't read it. True it was general in that it doesn't really explain what would be best, what areas he thinks are lacking so on and so forth.

True, but i would have thought it might not be a TOTAL thread hijack as i was only enquiring on the status of the sale, not if they are acceptable or anything else :p:

I highly suspect that as it stands they have no proper armour doctrine that can be effectively put in place, how many years has it been since they properly used heavy armour effectively in large formations? AFAIK it would have been during the 2003 Iraq war as they still had the armoured brigades to do so, so it would most likely be a doctrine which is a version of the US doctrine except 'dumbed down' (for the want of a better word) for the capabilities of the Iraqi army. They don't have the need or operational experience to do tank-v-tank warfare and the most likely scenario would be armour/infantry cooperation and fire support against insurgents.

As it stands, countering an insurgency is about as effective as the Iraqi military is going to be (at this moment)
 
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brinktk

New Member
I believe I am in a position to comment on this topic since I returned from Iraq in Dec of 2011 and one of the missions my unit was tasked with was advise, train, and assist to the IA.

A little background first. I participated in the invasion of Iraq back in 2003 and the fiasco that occured in the year following the fall of Baghdad. My unit set up the first ICDC training facility in Al Anbar province outside the city of Al Hit. We trained the ICDC for about 2 months and it was...frustrating. Lack of understanding of culture, different training methods, lack of funding, dubious motivations for joining the Iraqi military, wasta, etc plagued our efforts to train these first recruits in the ways of the warrior.

Fast forward to 2011, the Iraqi Army I encountered was much better than the one I encountered in 2003. BUT, there were still several shortfalls. I can only speak of the IA that I worked with and trained with...I can in no way validate or invalidate the respective quality of IA forces outside of my area...

When I arrived in Iraq this last deployment I was a platoon leader inheriting the battle space that was previously the responsibility of an entire US Infantry Stryker Company. My platoon consisted of myself and 18 soldiers responsible for the entire 46 IA Bde that was located around the volitile area of Hawijah and Riyadh. The 46th had a very experienced officer corps, most officers of the rank of Maj and higher had previously served as officers in Saddams Army. Many of the officers, NCO's, and soldiers were Kurd. A very few were Shi'a and the rest (probably about 60%) were Sunni Arab.

They had a good grasp on the basics of soldiering but they were plagued with bad supply and aging equipment. My Brigade was equipped with M16 rifles(the only brigade in this division equipped with them, the others being equipped with the AK47) but lacked adequate training in the operation and maintenance of them. In addition, they did not have enough 5.56 ammunition to go around. I would regularly spare any extra ammunition, medical supplies, chemlights, and extra equipment to help these guys out...needless to say, it was the proverbial finger in the dam scenerio. We did many raids with the IA and in my experience they were eager to do the job, but, they lacked the necessary patience and planning expertise to be truly effective. Many times when conducting a joint op, they would go off to the objective without waiting for the order, only to not find anything because we could not set up an effective cordon in unison with the raid...the targets would slip through the unsecured portion of the cordon in the fiasco that followed.

They had only one mortar platoon for the entire brigade but no ammunition to shoot it. they had zero armor, almost all of their transport being up armored humvees and ford/toyota pick ups with machine gun mounts on the back(a technical). They were often spread quite thin and some of the soldiers within their ranks(officers included) were sympathic to one VEN group or another.

Their NCO corps is weak and the officer corps kind of fills this gap. We tried to empower the NCO corps while we were there but it is hard to do because we are dealing with some cultural barriers on how to run a military.

Now the good news. Their intelligence apparatus is excellent. They have their fingers in everything and seemed to be privy to a lot of the FVEY info I read on our daily GRINTSUM. Their source network was mind boggling. Once I gained their respect they went out of their way to keep me informed of any SIGACTS in my AO and their soldiers WILL fight. They have no lack of bravery under the right circumstances. They're not a 100% solution by American standards, but they are a 70-80% solution by their standards and that distinction is important. A 100% American solution will not work. They will simply defer to our help and throw their hands up. A 70-80% Iraqi solution is far more important because they can see that they can do it. They have a very complex honor system over there. US soldiers demeaning Iraqi performance in front of others is the biggest dishonor we could do. Instead, by allowing them to do it their way, with our help, they save face and are genuinely grateful.

They are a military that CAN provide stability within Iraq over time. They are well versed in COIN and have a very experienced and battle hardened corps of soldiers that stay and fight for the good of Iraq. Unfortunately, they are not a combined arms military. This was a big gripe that many of the Field Grade Officers I dealt with had. They felt they should not be fighting in the cities dealing with the internal threat but be focused on the external threats like Iran, Syria, Turkey, etc. They don't have the capability to repel an invasion of any significant size and they know it...But, deals are being made and they are slowly starting to purchase modern air, armor, and artillery. Furthermore they are sending many of their soldiers in these highly technincal fields to military schools within the US to get a trained group of soldiers in their ranks so they can set up their own technical schools. It's going to take time, and it's not going to be easy...but I believe in 20-30 years the fruits of our, and more importantly their, labors will spring to life and they will really be a force to be reckoned with within their region.
 

SteelTiger 177

New Member
As far as tanks go I heard that the Iraqi are getting at least 2000 surplus T-72s/M-84s from most of the former Warsaw Pact countgries as well from Croatia.So why would we sell the Iraqis 100 M1s when they are getting 2000 surplus T-72s?I have to wonder what the Isrealis will say about this?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some news, the Iraqis are getting Kornet-E ATGMs, probably the man-portable variant. They're also getting the Pantsyr-1S. It's unclear whether they will go to the Army, or Air Force. I'm assuming Army, but it would be nice to know for sure.

bmpd -

The source is the annual report from the Tula KBP, the manufacturer of the systems. I have to wonder what else went into the package of contracts they signed.
 

Sameh

New Member
All discussions are great in regard of arms and new equipment.
Being Egyptian and a bit familiar with middle east armies n hitory, one important point you need to consider is the previous training & skills the Iraqi army had before during Saddam era. This was one of the best armies in middle eadt, they had a huge army in million, they've got some of the best equipment at that time (mig-25, T-72, ...) in recognizable numbers. They had used to use such equipment and used to manufacture their own T-72 (Iraqi version named Asad Babel), in addition to some Russian and Irai version of the Scud missiles. On the other hand the Iraq ir force had a good record during the 8-years war against the Irani air force equipped with F-4 fantom, mirage and others, even during 1991 war when complete air supriority was on the allied forces side the Iraqi pilots succeeds to hunt some nice American birds (F-18, A-10, F-16) in air to air (mainly with the phenomenal mig-25). Last point, all people (yes all peple not only army) knows how to use at least AK-47, and many of them knows how to operat RPGs, hand grenades and even AA guns ! Which Saddam worked to build some last line called people forces. So don't undersestimate them because what they lack now is only equipment but not readiness.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
This was one of the best armies in middle eadt, they had a huge army in million, they've got some of the best equipment at that time (mig-25, T-72, ...) in recognizable numbers.
So what? The Iraqi army may have been impressive by Arab standards but its combat record during the October War and during the war with Iran wasn't very impressive. Even against the long war against the outnumbered and outgunned Kurds, the Iraq army struggled. On paper, given the size of the Iraqi army, the recources it had at its disposal and the fact that Iraq wasn't operating under the same constrainst Iran was, the Iraqi army should have rolled into Western Iran; but it didn't and the war dragged on for 8 long years.

On the other hand the Iraq ir force had a good record during the 8-years war against the Irani air force equipped with F-4 fantom, mirage and others, even during 1991 war
The Iraqi air force only gained the upper hand by 1985/1986, prior to that it was Iranians who had a 'good record'. Bear in mind that when Iraq invaded, the Iranian air force faced a shortage of pilots [many had been purged and some were actually released from jail after the invasion]. Spares was also a huge problem, despite the existence of a huge stockpile they were only able to gain access to their large spares inventory after breaking the codes [these had been kept by the American advisors when they left the country]. Unlike the Iraqis, the Iranians had a very tough time obtaining spares and replacement aircraft. It was a servicibility problems [to be expected given the high sortie rates flown and the lack of any outside help], a lack of pilots and other issues that limited the number of sorties the Iranians could generate, it wasn't the Iraqi air force.

Considering that Iraq had the support of many countries and that its air force was able to obtain new aircraft [F1, MiG-25s and loaned Super Entendards] from Russia and France, it's record - especially in the early days was dismal..... In contrast the only new fighters that Iran was able to get it hands on during the war were Chinese made F-7s. The Iraqis also benefited from intel provided by America, and USN ships in the Gulf provided Iraq with warning whenever Iranian raids were detected on radar. Even towards the later part of the war, when Iran was scrapping the bottom of the barrel and its economy was near to collapse [unlike Iraq, Iran did not get huge bailouts and long term very low interest loans to buy arms], the Iranian air force still was a force to be reckoned with and rarely failed to make an apperance when it was needed. What played a huge part in preventing the Iraqi air force from gaining controls of the skes over Iran was Iraqi incompetence and the fact that Iran had a fairly decent sized cadre of well motivated, American trained air crews and ground support personnel. Prior to the invasion, the Mullahs actually planned on selling the F-14 fleet, it was lucky for Iran that they didn't!

Iran did not operate the Mirage, only Iraq did.

even during 1991 war when complete air supriority was on the allied forces side the Iraqi pilots succeeds to hunt some nice American birds (F-18, A-10, F-16) in air to air (mainly with the phenomenal mig-25).
Apart from a single USN F/A-18 that was reported to have been picked off by a MiG-25; no other allied aircraft was known to have been shot down by an Iraqi aircraft.

For further information on the subject, I would recommend -

Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988 [Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop]

Arabs At War [Kenneth Pollack]

There are also some interesting videos on Youtube -

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sya-9XDpfiM"]IRIAF F-14 Tomcat in Combat(Part 1) - YouTube[/nomedia]
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
even during 1991 war when complete air supriority was on the allied forces side the Iraqi pilots succeeds to hunt some nice American birds (F-18, A-10, F-16) in air to air (mainly with the phenomenal mig-25).
The only air to air loss the coalition suffered was an F18 - the Iraqi air force did poorly throughout the first Gulf War and only generated one strike in response to the entire campaign.

Right now, the task is to rebuild a working airforce from the ground up, train new pilots, line up maintenance capabilities with aircraft. The army is probably best placed of all the services as they retained more of their heavy gear - the Iraqi air force and Navy were all flattened during the 2003 war.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
and only generated one strike in response to the entire campaign.
This was probably the Mirages that were armed with AM-39s. One was shot down by an RSAF F-15 which was vectored by a USAF E-3.

and Navy were all flattened during the 2003 war.
The navy really never had much assets to begin with; quite a number were lost to Allied assets during the 1st Gulf War. Orders were placed for 6 corvettes and 2 Lupo class frigates from Ficantieri but these were impounded after the invasion of Kuwait. The Lupos ended up with the Italian Navy and 4 corvettes were bought by the Royal Malaysian Navy.

Thought you might find this interesting; it's a bunch of very interesting interviews conducted with former Iraqi military people -

Saddam
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Meanwhile the BTR-4 epic is continuing. A ship with the new BTR-4s is now sitting in the Persian Gulf. Iraq refuses to accept the shipment citing quality problems. The delivery company is considering selling them to a third party to recover losses.

Gur Khan attacks!: «

The Ukranian industry specialist cited also claims that the BTR-4s that were delivered to the Iraqis are not being used due to problems with quality. I wonder if anyone knows whether that's true because Iraq does operate Ukranian BTR-80 variants, and there don't seem to be any problems.
 
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