Australian Army Discussions and Updates

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Admin. A general christmas comment that applies for even the athiests and other believers.

Lets all play nice and stay on subject.

and I say that as someone who has strayed in the past and not exercised good judgement
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
But mateeeee, why do you personally attack people and answer in sarcastic tones, when you could just ignore them? I hope you just ignore this post. i guess i dont want you to answer that question, but consider less attacks, because it makes you look the arsehole, not the other bloke.
I guess you didn't notice his statements that caused this? I don't take kindly to having my credibility questioned just because the other guy doesn't have the faintest clue. To best summarise this entire situation:
 
Last edited:

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Does anybody have a link to what plan the nuts and bolts of Plan Berseba is?.

Is the 5th and 7 battalion going to loose most of their APC's?. Like wise is 2 Cav and 2/14 LHR going to be disbanded and integrated into the battalions?. Finally I thought we only had 2 SQD of M1's....So how do we fit that into three brigades?.

Sorry if these are simplistic questions (Navy Boy...Grease monkey at that :D). But I would think it is quite a difficult evolution to split 1 Mech, 1 Motorised, and a Light infantry Brigades into three homogenous Brigades?
 
Last edited:

t68

Well-Known Member
Does anybody have a link to what plan the nuts and bolts of Plan Berseba is?.

Is the 5th and 7 battalion going to loose most of their APC's?. Like wise is 2 Cav and 2/14 LHR going to be disbanded and integrated into the battalions?. Finally I thought we only had 2 SQD of M1's....So how do we fit that into three brigades?.

Sorry if these are simplistic questions (Navy Boy...Grease monkey at that :D). But I would think it is quite a difficult evolution to split 1 Mech, 1 Motorised, and a Light infantry Brigades into three homogenous Brigades?
Not sure of the nitty gritty aspects of the plan, from these 2 quick pieces I found seems the restructure of the 1st, 3rd and 7th Brigade with support from 2 Reserve Brigades from the 2nd Division how that effect the Armoured/Calvary Regiment Abe or Aussie Digger might have a better insight than I would.

http://www.defence.gov.au/opEx/exercises/caex/pdf/caligar.pdf

Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence, Minister for Defence Materiel and Parliamentary Secretary for Defence – New structure and capability for Army

www.dra.org.au/files/J8UGXN9H7R/MAJGEN_Caligari_-_Transcript.doc • DOC file
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Not sure of the nitty gritty aspects of the plan, from these 2 quick pieces I found seems the restructure of the 1st, 3rd and 7th Brigade with support from 2 Reserve Brigades from the 2nd Division how that effect the Armoured/Calvary Regiment Abe or Aussie Digger might have a better insight than I would.

http://www.defence.gov.au/opEx/exercises/caex/pdf/caligar.pdf

Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence, Minister for Defence Materiel and Parliamentary Secretary for Defence – New structure and capability for Army

www.dra.org.au/files/J8UGXN9H7R/MAJGEN_Caligari_-_Transcript.doc • DOC file
I was told by a reliable person a few months ago, that 8 and 9 will de-link, and 4RAR re=born. 5 and 7 remain mech, and 2RAR Marine.
Other people on here with equally reliable sources say it wont happen that way, guess we will have to wait.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The specifics of Plan Beersheba have been discussed many times before. But simply, each brigade will consist of two vanilla infantry battalions and an ACR. The ACR will consist of one tank squadron and three cavalry squadrons. The two battalions will be based on the Inf 2012/MIB orbat, with no real armoured vehicles. One of the cavalry squadrons in the ACR will provide armoured vehicles to mechanise one battalion when required. The 'spare' infantry battalion (2 RAR) will form the basis for the amphibious task group, and will sit outside the brigade structure.

I was told by a reliable person a few months ago, that 8 and 9 will de-link, and 4RAR re=born. 5 and 7 remain mech, and 2RAR Marine.
He was telling you porkies. Under Plan Beersheba the battalions will shrink in size, there is certainly not enough spare resources - either money or people - to raise two extra battalions.
 

Kirkzzy

New Member
Under Plan Beersheba the battalions will shrink in size, there is certainly not enough spare resources - either money or people - to raise two extra battalions.
Shrink how? I am not familiar with the current orbat, but just looking at the new infantry platoons alone the battalions still seem pretty impressive in size.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
He was telling you porkies. Under Plan Beersheba the battalions will shrink in size, there is certainly not enough spare resources - either money or people - to raise two extra battalions.
But nine battalions sounds so much cooler, if we had nine we could pretend we had an infantry division.

I am looking forward to seeing Plan Beersheba rolled out, finally a structure that looks to make the most of what we have (will have) rather than trying to pretend that we can expand hollow structures and cadres into fully trained and ready brigades / divisions overnight.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Shrink how? I am not familiar with the current orbat, but just looking at the new infantry platoons alone the battalions still seem pretty impressive in size.
The main reason for the smaller battalions is the removal of all armoured vehicles. However, even the light battalions are shrinking slightly (mainly due to the brigading of health and some CSS elements).
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Does anybody have a link to what plan the nuts and bolts of Plan Berseba is?.

Is the 5th and 7 battalion going to loose most of their APC's?. Like wise is 2 Cav and 2/14 LHR going to be disbanded and integrated into the battalions?. Finally I thought we only had 2 SQD of M1's....So how do we fit that into three brigades?.

Sorry if these are simplistic questions (Navy Boy...Grease monkey at that :D). But I would think it is quite a difficult evolution to split 1 Mech, 1 Motorised, and a Light infantry Brigades into three homogenous Brigades?
Everything you ever wanted to know about 1 Armd Regiment (as it currently stands) and more:

Structure and Equipment - 1st Armoured Regiment - Forces Command

Under Beersheba, all the battalions will have their armour taken away from them and given to the Armoured Cavalry Units to be set up. With this plan, Infantry can get back to doing what they do well (digging holes, humping with large packs, looking down upon every other Corps etc... :D) and Armour can do what they do best...

Effectively this means 2 Cav Regt, 2/14 LHR and what is now B Sqn 3/4 Cav Regt (probably expanded to 3x operational or Sabre Squadrons just like the other Cav units in future years) will operate all of Army's main armoured capability (Abrams, ASLAV and M113AS3/4). All other units are likely to operate only Bushmasters and up-armoured G Wagens / JLTV types.

Effectively all Army's regular infantry battalions will be identically structured and equipped, with the exception of 2RAR which will be the designated "Amphibious" battalion and will no doubt have a structure designed to support that role, given the "raise, train, sustain" mantra Army uses.

Mind you all of this is meant to occur by 2032, so I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for all this to occur. Consider how many re-org's Army has attempted over the last 21 years and you'll see why most aren't too excited about this plan...
 

t68

Well-Known Member
With RAA going the M777 route with 1st and 4th Field Regiments being converted and 8/12 also planned to be equipped that part of Army of three, plus the long winded requirement for an SPG would HIMARS be a worth will addition if the government decided against an SPG.

Not being under armour is a major disadvantage but with redesigned SEK (to make room for additional per’s) from the R686 Mack truck might be a cheaper alternative to an SPG. Being able to use all exiting M270 ordnance with a single MGM-140 ATACMS, for ranges beyond the 60km for the SPG out to 130 odd km. would the US be interested on doing a deal like the M1 on zero hours M270?


http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/mfc/PC/MFC_HIMARS_pc.pdf
http://www.armyvehicles.dk/m270.htm
 
Last edited:

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think the key quote from the link you provided is this one...
Speaking of which, is there any hint yet as to what will happen to the 4 main Armoured Corps Regiments (2 Cav, 2/14LHR, 1 Armd and B Sqn 3/4 Cav Regt)?

If Beersheba goes ahead, one will surely have to fold up it's colours or would (for instance B Sqn 3/4 Cav provide the Choc "armoured unit" that has been mooted for Queensland?
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
With RAA going the M777 route with 1st and 4th Field Regiments being converted and 8/12 also planned to be equipped that part of Army of three, plus the long winded requirement for an SPG would HIMARS be a worth will addition if the government decided against an SPG.

Not being under armour is a major disadvantage but with redesigned SEK (to make room for additional per’s) from the R686 Mack truck might be a cheaper alternative to an SPG. Being able to use all exiting M270 ordnance with a single MGM-140 ATACMS, for ranges beyond the 60km for the SPG out to 130 odd km. would the US be interested on doing a deal like the M1 on zero hours M270?


http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/mfc/PC/MFC_HIMARS_pc.pdf
M270 (MLRS) - Danish Army Vehicles Homepage
On a LAND 17 project briefing I saw a few years ago there was a picture of a HIMARS vehicle on it.

There was also the big red "ghostbusters circle" with a line through it and NO written in large red bold type.

A warning to industry not to even bother submitting the idea...
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
With RAA going the M777 route with 1st and 4th Field Regiments being converted and 8/12 also planned to be equipped that part of Army of three, plus the long winded requirement for an SPG would HIMARS be a worth will addition if the government decided against an SPG.

Not being under armour is a major disadvantage but with redesigned SEK (to make room for additional per’s) from the R686 Mack truck might be a cheaper alternative to an SPG. Being able to use all exiting M270 ordnance with a single MGM-140 ATACMS, for ranges beyond the 60km for the SPG out to 130 odd km. would the US be interested on doing a deal like the M1 on zero hours M270?


http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/mfc/PC/MFC_HIMARS_pc.pdf
M270 (MLRS) - Danish Army Vehicles Homepage
Someone (I believe ADMK2) previously indicated the ADF weren't interested in MLRS or HIMARS as they saw them as area weapons with insufficient accuracy (collateral damage concerns?) for their needs. I wonder if current US use of the system for high accuracy, rapid response will affect a change in attitude.

Doh.......took too long to post my reply!
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Its my understanding that only the NSW based Hunter River Lance have been issued with Bushmaster, under Plan Beersheba all reserve Armoured units will be issued Bushmaster IMV.

Good news for reserve formations, I would imagine they would have lost a lot of members when M113 was withdrawn from the reserve.

Defence Ministers » Parliamentary Secretary for Defence – Army Reserve to get Bushmasters

I would not imagine that they will be new builds but hand me downs with the ARA getting new builds. Is this part of the announcement of approx 113 new build bushies some time ago?
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Speaking of which, is there any hint yet as to what will happen to the 4 main Armoured Corps Regiments (2 Cav, 2/14LHR, 1 Armd and B Sqn 3/4 Cav Regt)?
No idea to be honest. The most sensible thing to do would be to give 2/14 LHR back to the chocs, and move wither 2 Cav or 1 Armd Regt down to Brisbane. However, if I had to guess it would be that 1 Armd Regt gets disbanded, with its squadrons going to 2 Cav, 3/4 Cav and 2/14 LHR. I imagine that this will lead to a lot of debate at next years corps conference. It will be interesting to see if they rename the regiments as well (ie, 2 ACR, 3/4 ACR etc).

I would not imagine that they will be new builds but hand me downs with the ARA getting new builds. Is this part of the announcement of approx 113 new build bushies some time ago?
There are actually more Bushmasters being bought than the regular army actually needs. I imagine that as Beersheeba takes effect the choc units will get either new or barely used Bushies. Certainly once Afghan winds down and (almost) all the Bushies are returned to Australia (which will also mean there is no requirement for a pre-deployment training fleet or for 3-5 attrition replacements a month), there will be plenty if spare vehicles lying around.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I can understand the Army not beig interested in HIMARS (or any other MLRS version) for a multitude of reasons but lack of accuracy is defenitely a weird one.

Putting GMLRs with unitary warheads or SMArt submunition onto it makes a wondefull pinpoint accurate weapon against several different targets out of it without any area effect bomblets being used.

The ability to use ATACMS is just the icing on the cake.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Its my understanding that only the NSW based Hunter River Lance have been issued with Bushmaster, under Plan Beersheba all reserve Armoured units will be issued Bushmaster IMV.

Good news for reserve formations, I would imagine they would have lost a lot of members when M113 was withdrawn from the reserve.

Defence Ministers » Parliamentary Secretary for Defence – Army Reserve to get Bushmasters

I would not imagine that they will be new builds but hand me downs with the ARA getting new builds. Is this part of the announcement of approx 113 new build bushies some time ago?
Again, don't get too excited. Plan Beersheba is programed to be fully rolled out by 2032...

Will we even HAVE Bushmasters in-service then?

Unlikely...
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I can understand the Army not beig interested in HIMARS (or any other MLRS version) for a multitude of reasons but lack of accuracy is defenitely a weird one.

Putting GMLRs with unitary warheads or SMArt submunition onto it makes a wondefull pinpoint accurate weapon against several different targets out of it without any area effect bomblets being used.

The ability to use ATACMS is just the icing on the cake.
I suspect cost was a bigger driver than inaccuracy. That and the perceived design and platform intent of MLRS.

We named our helicopter gunships 'armed reconnaissance helicopters' and promoted their inherent 'recon' capability as opposed to their firepower capability for political correctness reasons. The idea that we are buying systems capable of the 'mass destruction' that MLRS systems are capable of is anathema to our politicos.

Hence the big red NO written across them during industry briefs. No matter their utility, they are seen as fundamentally representing the wrong sort of 'message' our defence force is meant to deliver...

Same with the M1 Abrams. Their inherent firepower capability was deliberately down-played ad their increased protection and ability to provide force protection was the main selling point to Government...
 
Top