UAE Fighter requirement

[Twinblade]

From being considered to be a near done deal for Dassault Aviation, it has turned into a multi contender slugfest. According to the latest Aviation Week issue, RFP has been issued to Eurofighter, Super Hornet and F-15 eagle (not known if its for silent eagle).

Dubai ShowNews | Day 1 | Express 3 | Zinio Digital Magazines (jump to page 48)

Considering that UAE operates Block 60's is it a strong case for f-15 sales?

Meanwhile f-16 can also expect a few more orders

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2011/11/dxb11-certain-victory-for-rafa.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Quick summary: Dassault Rafale still in, Saab Gripen still out, Eurofighter Typhoon made a surprise entrance, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60 is now lurking and Boeing throws F-15 Silent Eagle into the mix.

And the UAE Air Force, meanwhile, confirmed it wants to buy a "next generation fighter" after 2018, when the Lockheed F-35 is, possibly, the only fighter of that general description outside of China and Russia still in production.

Lockheed, however, doesn't seem worried. The F-35 is still barred by US export control officials for being sold or even marketed to the UAE, but that restriction will not last forever. Pressed to explain why he still cannot show the UAE so much as a desk model of the F-35, Lockheed vice president of business development replied: "It's coming, it's coming."

All of this can be little consolation to the fighter made in Merignac, France. No one doubts the French have a world-class fighter, but their negotiators have talked their way out of certain victory before. Allowing the UAE sale to slip away may not be devastating to the Rafale, with Brazil, India, Kuwait and Switzerland still in talks with the French. But such a loss would surely be long remembered in the industry as yet another can't-miss deal that only the French could mess up.

 

[ADMk2]

It was never a done deal from UAE's POV. They have always insisted their Mirage M2K-9's be purchased as part of any Rafale deal and France has consistently stated it doesn't want them.

Looks as if UAE may finally have run out of patience with them. Afterall, Dassault needs a sale more than UAE HAS to rely on Dassault...

UAE has plenty of options to buy advanced new fighters, Rafale is just one of them and not even the best...

 

[dragonfire]

It was never a done deal from UAE's POV. They have always insisted their Mirage M2K-9's be purchased as part of any Rafale deal and France has consistently stated it doesn't want them.

Looks as if UAE may finally have run out of patience with them. Afterall, Dassault needs a sale more than UAE HAS to rely on Dassault...

UAE has plenty of options to buy advanced new fighters, Rafale is just one of them and not even the best...

I am very much surprised that they havent gone for more F-16 block 60, considering that they have spent a lot of money (3 Billion USD iirc). It would make better sense operating more nos of the same model and it would lower the per fighter sunk costs. Not to mention they wouldnt need to spend similar amounts of money of the proposed Super Rafale

 

[colay]

I wonder what capabilities the UAE is looking for? They seem to be willing to acquire mor Blk. 60 Vipers which indicates that they are happy with the aircraft. Perhaps they want the balance of the order to be more optimized for the A2A role which would seem to favor Typhoon. I don't know if the UAE wants to bankroll development of the SE.
Whatever, the stress levels at Dassault must have risen a couple of notches. not good news at all,

 

[Twinblade]

It was never a done deal from UAE's POV. They have always insisted their Mirage M2K-9's be purchased as part of any Rafale deal and France has consistently stated it doesn't want them.

Looks as if UAE may finally have run out of patience with them. Afterall, Dassault needs a sale more than UAE HAS to rely on Dassault...

UAE has plenty of options to buy advanced new fighters, Rafale is just one of them and not even the best...

Considering that Taiwan was very interested in those airframes, the prospect of angering China must have played heavily on the minds of Dassault executives. The fact the UAE was insisting on uprated engines and a more powerful radar, which Dassault executives were readily brushing aside might have lead to a breakdown in negotiations.

I wonder what capabilities the UAE is looking for? They seem to be willing to acquire mor Blk. 60 Vipers which indicates that they are happy with the aircraft. Perhaps they want the balance of the order to be more optimized for the A2A role which would seem to favor Typhoon. I don't know if the UAE wants to bankroll development of the SE.
Whatever, the stress levels at Dassault must have risen a couple of notches. not good news at all,

Considering that UAE is willing to pay the price for developing the capabilities, I wouldn't be surprised if they go ahead and fund the silent eagle.

 

[jack412]

I am very much surprised that they havent gone for more F-16 block 60, considering that they have spent a lot of money (3 Billion USD iirc). It would make better sense operating more nos of the same model and it would lower the per fighter sunk costs. Not to mention they wouldnt need to spend similar amounts of money of the proposed Super Rafale

AFAIK, UAE needs a platform for their Black Shaheen/Storm Shadow and I havent seen USA offer a JASSM/SLAM-ER
so as I see it, they need a rafale or Typhoon

 

[swerve]

Or for the USA to change its mind and allow integration of Black Shaheen on a US aircraft.

 

[jack412]

It could change now that the US needs money and Kuwait has the storm shadow,
as you know, they have previously said no to putting it on their f-16/60 though

 

[Abraham Gubler]

It could change now that the US needs money and Kuwait has the storm shadow,
as you know, they have previously said no to putting it on their f-16/60 though

I doubt the Emirates are motivated too much by platforms for legacy weapons. F-15E and F/A-18F are likely to come with SLAM-ER and JSOW as part of a package. They also have the MICA as aprt of their Miro system that will be an orphan unless they buy Rafale.

 

[SpudmanWP]

Funny thing is that the F-16 is next up to get UAI. This should change significantly how the US keeps it's client F-16 from using specific weapons.

 

[NICO]

I was reading somewhere that UAE was considering a top up purchase of Block 60s. The fact that now UAE wants Eurofighter to bid makes me wonder if they haven't gotten some info on India's bids and aren't too happy to see the price they are getting stuck with.

 

[colay]

I was reading somewhere that UAE was considering a top up purchase of Block 60s. The fact that now UAE wants Eurofighter to bid makes me wonder if they haven't gotten some info on India's bids and aren't too happy to see the price they are getting stuck with.

Quite possible.. EADS and Dassault execs scribbling furiously when MMRCA financial bids were opened, only natural that some of the details will be leaked.

 

[Twinblade]

I doubt the Emirates are motivated too much by platforms for legacy weapons. F-15E and F/A-18F are likely to come with SLAM-ER and JSOW as part of a package. They also have the MICA as aprt of their Miro system that will be an orphan unless they buy Rafale.

They can offload MICA's as a part of Mirage 2000 resale package, can't they ?

 

[ADMk2]

They can offload MICA's as a part of Mirage 2000 resale package, can't they ?

Not if they're time expired...

 

[colay]

Those UAE Mirages are pretty low-mileage and the latest standard, right?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Those UAE Mirages are pretty low-mileage and the latest standard, right?

Half of them are under 8 years old but the other half were originally normal Miro 2000s delivered around 1990 that were upgraded to 2000-9 standard. So they would be getting pretty close to end of airframe life.

 

[swerve]

Half of them are under 8 years old but the other half were originally normal Miro 2000s delivered around 1990 that were upgraded to 2000-9 standard. So they would be getting pretty close to end of airframe life.

The UAE has never operated its entire fleet, so the airframe hours should be quite a lot less than one would expect from their age, & when we compare them with others, we find that aircraft of similar or even greater age are thought worth upgrading to keep in service. e.g. India is spending money on a life extension for older Mirages, & Belgian/Danish/Dutch/Norwegian F-16s were only slightly newer when they had their MLU. Some of the MLU F-16s have been sold second hand when 10 years older than those UAE Mirages.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The UAE has never operated its entire fleet, so the airframe hours should be quite a lot less than one would expect from their age, & when we compare them with others, we find that aircraft of similar or even greater age are thought worth upgrading to keep in service. e.g. India is spending money on a life extension for older Mirages, & Belgian/Danish/Dutch/Norwegian F-16s were only slightly newer when they had their MLU. Some of the MLU F-16s have been sold second hand when 10 years older than those UAE Mirages.

While I don’t disagree in principle I wouldn’t use those two examples as being a benchmark for the UAE Mirage force. India has to upgrade their old aircraft because their bureaucratic system is so inertia bound it takes them decades to field replacements. The F-16 MLU went from being to be finished by 1995 (under original Cold War timetables) to being finished in 2010 from a block of countries that were drastically slashing defence expenditure.

The Emirates have made it clear they want to replace their Mirage 2000-9s. The life of type still inherent in the fleet and the still high level of capability they have is obviously what is motivating their desire to secure a buy back (to Dassault) or onwards sale as part of their replacement. Clearly since they have opened up the new acquisition they no longer seem driven by the disposal of the Mirage. New fighters now seems to be the important thing. No doubt motivated by Iran...

 

[colay]

Maybe they have better luck in India.


UAE Says France's Rafale Deal 'Unworkable' - Defense News

UAE Says France's Rafale Deal 'Unworkable'
By PIERRE TRAN
Published: 16 Nov 2011 09:00





DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - The industrial terms in the French effort to sell the Dassault Rafale fighter to the United Arab Emirates were "unworkable," Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed, deputy supreme commander of the armed forces, said Nov. 16..

"Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms," he said..

Emirati authorities are unhappy with what they see as French industry's failure to "understand the political nature" of the deal..

That has led deep dissatisfaction in the United Arab Emirates with the entire package, including the terms, specifications and price. .

"The price is ridiculous," the source said.

 

[dragonfire]

Maybe they have better luck in India.

"The price is ridiculous," the source said.

India had to shell out quite a lot of money on the IAF's Mirage 2000's to upgrade it to 2005 Standards. Many people felt the upgrade costs were higher than the cost of buying new fighters. The word ridiculous was heard thrown around a lot even then.