SAS & SBS to be present at the London Olympics

[hawky94]

Article by the Telegraph, November 3rd, 2011

The Special Air Service teams will use high-speed rigid inflatable boats to avoid traffic and increase their response speed.

The special forces troopers have been training for months against the potential threat of a Mumbai-style attack, in which terrorists seize hotels or other civilian targets and defend them against the authorities.

A source told The Sun newspaper: “All scenarios are being anticipated. London will be protected like never before - and the message is clear: if anyone is fool enough to try to endanger the public at these Games they will be met with the swiftest retribution by the best equipped troops of our most elite fighting units.

“Troops can deploy by air and water and be on site in moments. Then you’ve got force on the ground while the situation is monitored by the air.

“Major evacuation plans are still being revised in case of a terrorist attack but the most important thing is having the access and ability to strike back at terrorists. That will be achieved and those plans are in place.”

The SAS are understood to have already run training drills with live ammunition at the Olympics Village in east London.

Special Boat Service units have also been training off the Dorset coast to tackle the threat from suicide bombers, it has been reported.

Last year, two former senior commanders of the SAS told The Sunday Telegraph that Britain's security forces would be unable to cope with a Mumbai-style attack in central London.

Colonel Richard Williams and Lieutenant General Sir Graeme Lamb said that such a "paramilitary threat" would "overmatch" any land-based police force and turn London into a war zone.
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So, with that in mind, is this a good idea? I mean, we all saw what happened at the Munich Olympics, and although there is no 'Posse Comitatus' which suspends the use of British military forces on British soil, would it be like Northern Ireland? Special Air Service units able to be deployed rapidly should the need arise, I can't see any problem with it except for those who say that using military force, especially special forces units inside of one's own country is a bad idea.

What do you all think?

 

[lopez]

So, with that in mind, is this a good idea? I mean, we all saw what happened at the Munich Olympics, and although there is no 'Posse Comitatus' which suspends the use of British military forces on British soil, would it be like Northern Ireland? Special Air Service units able to be deployed rapidly should the need arise, I can't see any problem with it except for those who say that using military force, especially special forces units inside of one's own country is a bad idea.

What do you all think?

I have never understood why people have a problem with that... so long as they don't act solely on their own initiative, your fine. I mean if a government is going to use the military to oppress its people (I mean actually oppress) then country is already to far gone as it is. It would be hard to turn a functioning democracy that respects peoples rights in to a oppressive regime overnight.

To come round more to the point. The SAS and SBS would be better suited to deal with that sort of attack than police tactical teams... especially as they would play the role of QRF better...

 

[Bonza]

I have never understood why people have a problem with that... so long as they don't act solely on their own initiative, your fine. I mean if a government is going to use the military to oppress its people (I mean actually oppress) then country is already to far gone as it is. It would be hard to turn a functioning democracy that respects peoples rights in to a oppressive regime overnight.

Nor would anyone expect it to change overnight, but some people get worried by the precedent set by use of the military in a domestic setting. I assume the concern isn't a sudden switch from functioning democracy to oppressive regime, but instead lies in a perception that such actions carry the risk of increasing the government's willingness to resort to the military for domestic law enforcement, and could potentially form one part of a larger, long-term (not necessarily planned) erosion of social and legal opposition to these actions.

But as far as this specific example goes I agree with you, I don't see why anyone would be concerned or even surprised. Given the present state of the world I'm sure ANY country hosting the Olympic Games would deploy as many counter-terrorism units as were available, and I'm equally sure this has been the case for every Olympic Games held since 1972. To me that sounds perfectly reasonable, in fact I think that responsibility for the safety of so many foreign and domestic visitors, athletes and dignitaries demands such a response. So to answer the original poster's question, yes, I think it's a very good idea.

On top of that, it seems strange to me that anyone would be unable to see the distinction between counter-terrorism and regular domestic law enforcement duties - from a legal perspective I'm sure the difference between the two is made quite clear in those countries that operate military CT units, such as Britain.

But is anyone actually kicking up a fuss about this? They really should examine the history and responsibilities of the SAS a bit more closely if that's the case...

 

[ADMk2]

I think it would be a massive waste of resources not to use a capability you maintain.

This is akin to arguing that you shouldn't use Typhoon fighter jets on QRA or to provide air policing over your own Country unless you're actually at war. Your Navy or maritime patrol force to secure your waterways and borders and so on.

Er, what exactly ARE you going to use to do these sorts of jobs that NEED to get done if you can't use the military?

Are the London Metropolitan Police signing up for a flight of Typhoons any time soon?

 

[PCShogun]

As already posted, there are several good reasons for a deployment within one's own borders. The military can train and equip themselves much better than a civilian force can and are ultimately responsible to react to an invasion, which is what I would include to mean terrorist attack.

The civilian authorities are primarily trained to intervene against armed civilians, not heavily armed terrorists ( in my opinion.)

This type of action is not without precedent. I refer to the 1980 rescue of hostages at the Iranian embassy in London by the SAS.

A Rand article that is interesting to read is located at http://www.rand.org/pubs/notes/2005/N2316.pdf and informs the reader of the history of Commando raids and gives details of 100 Commando raids from World war II to the 1980's, giving examples of not just U.S. and U.K. units, but units from several countries including Israel, Pakistan, India, Germany, and others.

 

[Todjaeger]

With respect to the SAS and SBS being trained and positioned for QRF and CT duties during the 2012 Olympic Games in London, I see that as a prudent move, by both the UK government and the Met. I fully expect that the Met will be out in force (literally and figuratively) during the Games, but in the event of a serious incident, or multiple incidents, the resources of the Met could be taxed or just outright inappropriate.

As for posse comitatus, that is currently a (mostly) defunct legal provision where a local law enforcement official was authorized to call up and arm able-bodied men in the area to assist in some law enforcement functions. At this point, the usage varies depending on various national and local government laws and ordnances. In the US for example, some states still apparently have it as an option in their respective state laws, but it is little used.

Now, the Posse Comitatus Act is a different animal altogether. This is a US Act which prohibits the US Army and also the US Air Force from engaging in, or providing assistance to local and state law enforcement except by direct authorization of the President. Incidentally, there has been a recent violation of this in early March of 2009 in Alabama, near Fort Rucker. A gunman by the Michael Kenneth McLendon shot and killed at least 10 people, as result of this, local law enforcement resources were taxed taking control of the situation and then in gathering evidence. Military Police from the nearby base were deployed on traffic control details to give local police breaks.

On a related side note to that, it might well be time for portions of the Posse Comitatus Act to either be changed or just outright repealed. Given some of the changes which have been occurring within the US, as well as the frequent need to respond to incidents and events immediately as well as cutbuts to resources, mutual aid is becoming more important and getting utilized much more frequently.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

The SAS and SBS would not, I expect, get deployed to deal with protesters, or even a mob of drunk hooligans. They could, but honestly it would be a waste of resources. Regular soldiers, or even better would be the Met, using personnel trained in riot/crowd control should respond instead. The days of militia from a different county being dispatched, with an officer reading the Riot Act before ordering the militiamen to action on an undispursed Mob are gone.

Second side note, the colloquial phrase, "read them the riot act," actually stem from this Act of Parliament, where the actual Act had to be read out to those deemed to have gathered unlawfully, prior to them suffering the punishments allowed under the Act.

-Cheers

 

[ngatimozart]

Article by the Telegraph, November 3rd, 2011

The Special Air Service teams will use high-speed rigid inflatable boats to avoid traffic and increase their response speed.

The special forces troopers have been training for months against the potential threat of a Mumbai-style attack, in which terrorists seize hotels or other civilian targets and defend them against the authorities.

A source told The Sun newspaper: “All scenarios are being anticipated. London will be protected like never before - and the message is clear: if anyone is fool enough to try to endanger the public at these Games they will be met with the swiftest retribution by the best equipped troops of our most elite fighting units.

“Troops can deploy by air and water and be on site in moments. Then you’ve got force on the ground while the situation is monitored by the air.

“Major evacuation plans are still being revised in case of a terrorist attack but the most important thing is having the access and ability to strike back at terrorists. That will be achieved and those plans are in place.”

The SAS are understood to have already run training drills with live ammunition at the Olympics Village in east London.

Special Boat Service units have also been training off the Dorset coast to tackle the threat from suicide bombers, it has been reported.

Last year, two former senior commanders of the SAS told The Sunday Telegraph that Britain's security forces would be unable to cope with a Mumbai-style attack in central London.

Colonel Richard Williams and Lieutenant General Sir Graeme Lamb said that such a "paramilitary threat" would "overmatch" any land-based police force and turn London into a war zone.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, with that in mind, is this a good idea? I mean, we all saw what happened at the Munich Olympics, and although there is no 'Posse Comitatus' which suspends the use of British military forces on British soil, would it be like Northern Ireland? Special Air Service units able to be deployed rapidly should the need arise, I can't see any problem with it except for those who say that using military force, especially special forces units inside of one's own country is a bad idea.

What do you all think?

UK law is different to US law. NZ law is very similar to UK law being based upon it. During the recent Rugby World Cup the NZSAS were part of the security operation. Would be very stupid not have that capability involved within a security operation for a major event such as the Olympics. In the UK & NZ the law and protocols defines the roles the military play in a civil situation. The Northern Ireland situation is different in that it has a long history (700 years) and the threats were generally restricted to Northern Ireland until the 1980s.

 

[wickwiki]

listen to this... london olympic security

add http: in front of //londonist.com/2011/11londonist-out-loud-a-podcast-for-london-8-november-2011.php]November | 2011 | Londonist

 

[CheeZe]

A wise precaution to take, in my opinion. The SAS have proven themselves capable of planning and executing counter-terrorist operations. I admit that Operation Nimrod is the only CT operation performed by the SAS that I have read. However, if the current SAS are of the same or greater calibre than the SAS during Nimrod, I dare say that the chances of a Mumbai-style attack on the London Olympics doing as much damage as it did to Mumbai is fairly low. I do think tha

For all the planning and contingency, if an attack occurs (e.g they are unable to prevent its occurrence or were not aware of it until too late) then some damage will be done. Without foreknowledge, the SAS and SBS will a reactionary force and I must admit that I am still shocked by what happened in Mumbai and how long it took to resolve the situation.

 

[MrConservative]

add http: in front of //londonist.com/2011/11londonist-out-loud-a-podcast-for-london-8-november-2011.php]November | 2011 | Londonist

You are going to have to post with a lot more commentary than just a link to a podcast my friend. This could be deleted as spam and don't be surprised if it does.

As a new poster please read the rules.

 

[wickwiki]

As a new poster, I was unable to post a link, however I feel the podcast soundbyte is completely relevant to the discussion on SAS and security at the London 2012 Olympics... if a more established member would like to listen to and re-post the link, I think it would be a welcome addition to the conversation - definately not intended as spam!

You are going to have to post with a lot more commentary than just a link to a podcast my friend. This could be deleted as spam and don't be surprised if it does.

As a new poster please read the rules.

 

[Preceptor]

As a new poster, I was unable to post a link, however I feel the podcast soundbyte is completely relevant to the discussion on SAS and security at the London 2012 Olympics... if a more established member would like to listen to and re-post the link, I think it would be a welcome addition to the conversation - definately not intended as spam!

The issue here is that posters (old or new) are generally required to post a bit of commentary about something, this is above and beyond the ability of a new member to post links or not. In short, when referencing directions to the link, one should also include their own thoughts and commentary on the contents of the link.
-Preceptor

 

[cynicalbeard]

I think that the protocol is that the civilian police have nominal command and request military support as and when necessary (i.e. if things get beyond their abilities).
Obviously the Olympics are a potentially high-profile target with venues that will be largely empty, and thus available to train in, for the next six months or so. I'd honestly be surprised if the assorted venues didn't get at least a once-over from Hereford. I don't think many targets that are even vaguely high profile would at least get a look.

 

[RobWilliams]

To be honest i would have thought it highly unlikely if the SAS and SBS were NOT present during the Olympic games, i mean taking into account the current climate and the global aspect of the Olympics its not entirely unreasonable to believe that some sort of terrorist action may occur.

As good as regular police and armed response are on the ground, they are trained for this sort of thing and the "Munich Massacre" from 1972 is an example that terror activities during the Olympics can, and has, happened.

If the SAS and SBS were stood down during the Olympics i would say it was a waste of a capability from my point of view.

 

[winnyfield]

.... that Britain's security forces would be unable to cope with a Mumbai-style attack in central London.

More armed police would help in the event of a spree shooting/s.

In order of likely terrorist activity: bomb, spree killing ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> hostage taking.