Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[Andrew McL]

Not sure how many of you read ELP - who interestingly moved blogs a few months ago saying he was going to tone down his vitriol (WTF???) - but I've visited there (and all other forums including here) for the last time.

I've been challenged on a couple of recent posts at ELP, and whilst I stand behind them, I have no desire to get into a slanging match with 'Anonymous' trolls who call me a "moron", nor with 'Horde' who has challenged me in his ever so polite way. I should have known better than to try, and this past week has pretty much been the last straw.

The problem with these forums is that people tend to be polarised on one side or the other, and can't accept that there are some - like me - who can both praise and criticise a program, e.g, whilst I think the JSF is the right aircraft for Australia (and I've spoken to enough primary source people with classified level knowledge to NOT be reliant on LockMart "powerpoint jockeys"), I also think the program has been badly mis-managed from the get go by industry and by the US government, and remains in danger of collapse unless there is a big turnaround.

I'm sick of having to justify my position to, or getting into flame wars with those who mostly have no primary source information and thus rely on one or two secondary sources from which to form their views.

In the meantime, I'll let my work stand for itself and, if I'm proved wrong I'll be the first to admit it.

Happy life all.

Andrew (aka Magoo)

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Luckily I’ve managed to avoid contact with ELP. He came onto secretprojects.co.uk and declared the F-35 a “mistake jet” or words to that effect but fortunately never stayed.

I don’t think anyone here has a closed mind to the troubles the F-35’s development program has undergone. It’s a great disappointment for all and sundry. Even for Lockheed who I’m sure would much rather be earning receipts from 100 plus per annum production lines than a bloated development investment (with minimal profit margins).

But the thing about the critics is their hatred of the F-35 is based on an original and unfounded assessment that it will not be lethal or survivable. The schedule delay and cost growth all came later to be seized upon as icing on the cake that it should never have been built. They still insist upon a grand conspiracy or mass incompetence that the F-35 will be no good at air combat. And Air Power Australia have the multi coloured bar charts to prove it!

That being said the general unpleasantness of the F-35 critics as lead by “the Horde” at internode.com and his usual suspects makes any kind of reasonable debate impossible. Even if the JSF had been built by Boeing or McDonnell and had a trouble free development and was entering squadron service now these people would still be out there flame baiting and screaming at anyone who disagreed that it wasn’t a failure and never should have been built.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The problem with these forums is that people tend to be polarised on one side or the other, and can't accept that there are some - like me - who can both praise and criticise a program, e.g, whilst I think the JSF is the right aircraft for Australia (and I've spoken to enough primary source people with classified level knowledge to NOT be reliant on LockMart "powerpoint jockeys"), I also think the program has been badly mis-managed from the get go by industry and by the US government, and remains in danger of collapse unless there is a big turnaround.

I'm sick of having to justify my position to, or getting into flame wars with those who mostly have no primary source information and thus rely on one or two secondary sources from which to form their views.

In the meantime, I'll let my work stand for itself and, if I'm proved wrong I'll be the first to admit it.

Happy life all.

Andrew (aka Magoo)

1) I don't think you need to defend or justify your position as its apparent to all that you try to take the balanced view

2) welcome to the world where some of us have had these idiots trying to serial stalk us at work, to the point where even the casual observer has identified that its basically malicious and mischievous intent.

3) the unfort reality is that if some of us were able to respond to these idiots with actual material it would make life so much easier in reinforcing how shallow their knowledge set is. the canard that is trotted out that we can only make assessments on public material is such a thin defence that it becomes laughable - hence why its easier to ignore them rather than give them oxygen.

quite frankly we all have better things to do than to get into arguments with them. if they demonstrated a sense of balance and perspective then consideration might be given to engaging with them seriously - unfort its not going to happen.

 

[south]

Funny how when the chinese do it its called a "Spiral Upgrade Path". When the JSF does it its called a mistake jet.

People who arent in positions to know have to make assumptions to fill in the gaps (better yet ensure the Assumption supports your position). We all know what to Assume does....

 

[ADMk2]

Luckily I’ve managed to avoid contact with ELP. He came onto secretprojects.co.uk and declared the F-35 a “mistake jet” or words to that effect but fortunately never stayed.

Eric has basically retreated to his ivory tower blog and Ares after getting smashed everywhere he ever posts. He even used to post here and T5C back in the day, before getting run out quickly due to the stupidity he has resorted to these days.

He has become a Peter Goon worshipper for some unbelievable reason, has nothing interesting or decent to say unless APA or any of the other nutcases like "Perplexed" (aka - Jilljill, Gobsmacked and a few other equally inane handles) has said it first and let's no-one comment on his blog unless they agree with him wholeheartedly.

Not sure how many of you read ELP - who interestingly moved blogs a few months ago saying he was going to tone down his vitriol (WTF???) - but I've visited there (and all other forums including here) for the last time.

I'd read ELP, but the amount of times I'd have to smash myself in the head, just to come down to their level, would hardly be worth it...

I'm amazed he even let you post Andrew. You usually don't agree wholeheartedly with every single thing they ever say, so I'm surprised your posts were kept long enough for anyone to reply to them...

I for one will be sorry to see you go, if you choose not to come back here. I can understand your POV, but this forum will be the sorrier for it, if you don't post here at least, when you're in the mood for it...

Regards,

AD

 

[Tee_Centre_10]

Not sure how many of you read ELP - who interestingly moved blogs a few months ago saying he was going to tone down his vitriol (WTF???) - but I've visited there (and all other forums including here) for the last time.

I've been challenged on a couple of recent posts at ELP, and whilst I stand behind them, I have no desire to get into a slanging match with 'Anonymous' trolls who call me a "moron", nor with 'Horde' who has challenged me in his ever so polite way. I should have known better than to try, and this past week has pretty much been the last straw.

The problem with Mr Palmer et al is that they seem to inhabit an echo chamber that reflects their thoughts and opinions back at them while inconvenient facts that challenge their pronouncements pass straight through without registering, like neutrinos.

It is not a healthy environment to be in.

I think it is only because you were recognisably you (if you get me) that your posts weren't deleted.

 

[south]

RAAF Boss: More Simulators Needed For JSF | AVIATION WEEK

Comments from CAF re simulation fro JSF. ... Aside from that ELP and Goonie demonstrating their usual lack of depth..

 

[Abraham Gubler]

RAAF Boss: More Simulators Needed For JSF | AVIATION WEEK

Comments from CAF re simulation fro JSF. ...

This is another element in the transformation pie. An aircraft like the F-35 in which the pilot has very little to do towards flying the aircraft compared to legacy jets a lot more time and effort can be focused towards warfighting. And this can be simulated more because the flying side of things is so much less demanding. So how will this effect the gaining and retaining of air combat skill levels?

 

[treehuggingaj]

RAAF Base Amberley F-111 fighter jets end up on Swanbank landfill site near Ipswich | News, events and sport for Ipswich | Courier Mail

I'm lost for words.

 

[ADMk2]

RAAF Base Amberley F-111 fighter jets end up on Swanbank landfill site near Ipswich | News, events and sport for Ipswich | Courier Mail

I'm lost for words.

What would you have done with them? Paid $20m to have the asbestos removed and then sell them to Sims metals for $100k?

 

[treehuggingaj]

What would you have done with them? Paid $20m to have the asbestos removed and then sell them to Sims metals for $100k?

I hear you. That's why I am lost for words. Catch 22, rock and a hard place etc. Politics and cost aside, there is no doubt it's a sad end. This is coming from someone who isn't that sentimental.

As I get over seeing the pic, I am finding more words Could some frames have gone to Wagga for tech training? Perhaps a frame could have been moved to ADGie hill as a training aid? (Not sure if actually escorting pilots to their jet is a role of if the video I saw of them doing it was for show). More gate guards around Oz. In saying all this, DMO has set aside quite a few to keep so it's not all bad.

 

[Kirkzzy]

I'd kill to see Carlo Kopp's face right now!

 

[Abraham Gubler]

As I get over seeing the pic, I am finding more words Could some frames have gone to Wagga for tech training? Perhaps a frame could have been moved to ADGie hill as a training aid? (Not sure if actually escorting pilots to their jet is a role of if the video I saw of them doing it was for show). More gate guards around Oz. In saying all this, DMO has set aside quite a few to keep so it's not all bad.

13 are being kept and all modded for safe display and storage. The same expense would have to go on using them for training aides. In case you didn't know the Aus Gov has just been through a huge comensation scheme over exsposure to F-111 fuel tanks. Why would they want to keep this going for another generation or two so people can swing around off old F-111s. Underground is the best place for them.

 

[t68]

I read about something like that in the last few days, all exhibited aircraft will not be sold but leased so the government can manage the problems, they stipulated all aircraft had to be in a secure enclosed undercover area and no one could walk or crawl on the plane., which would be what GF mentioned about all the carcinogenic material still on the airframes.

 

[treehuggingaj]

13 are being kept and all modded for safe display and storage. The same expense would have to go on using them for training aides. In case you didn't know the Aus Gov has just been through a huge comensation scheme over exsposure to F-111 fuel tanks. Why would they want to keep this going for another generation or two so people can swing around off old F-111s. Underground is the best place for them.

Yeah you're right. Still a sad pic, you have to admit. However, no point getting attached to material things!

 

[the road runner]

RAAF Base Amberley F-111 fighter jets end up on Swanbank landfill site near Ipswich | News, events and sport for Ipswich | Courier Mail

I'm lost for words.

Dont let WORKCOVER see these photos.When it comes to removal of Asbestos,all asbestos must be plastic wrapped before put in landfill.Good to see The Commonwealth can just dump asbestos in the ground.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Dont let WORKCOVER see these photos.When it comes to removal of Asbestos,all asbestos must be plastic wrapped before put in landfill.Good to see The Commonwealth can just dump asbestos in the ground.

The asbestos gets removed. Its the chemical finishes inside the hull that are the issue. and they would have been neutralised as much as poss.

The commonwealth has to comply woth EPA issues on disposal - the same as everyone else.

Its part of the hazard and safety report that gets done at disposal

 

[the road runner]

The asbestos gets removed. Its the chemical finishes inside the hull that are the issue. and they would have been neutralised as much as poss.

The commonwealth has to comply woth EPA issues on disposal - the same as everyone else.

Its part of the hazard and safety report that gets done at disposal

Thanx for the reply gf

SR51? the stuff use to reseal the fuel tanks?

EPA laws make my head hurt ,if there are chemicals inside the plane and the plane is buried in the earth,how dose that stop the chemicals from leeching into the earth or water table?

I always have this dispute with the EPA.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Thanx for the reply gf

SR51? the stuff use to reseal the fuel tanks?

EPA laws make my head hurt ,if there are chemicals inside the plane and the plane is buried in the earth,how dose that stop the chemicals from leeching into the earth or water table?

I always have this dispute with the EPA.

Not sure as I'm not familiar with specifics. I am aware of the disposal issue for safety and hazard analysis as I have to factor it in to my own projects. - the CoA lawyers are pretty hot on compliance

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Thiess have put up some video explaining the F-111 disposal job:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNIAtygtUds&feature=player_embedded"]F111 Disposal Video2 - YouTube[/nomedia]