'Manned' Interception of Unmanned Aircraft Systems

[dragonfire]

Considering the large numbers of Unmanned Aircraft Systems that are being deployed globally; it is increasingly feasible that UAS would be intercepted by Airborne Manned Fixed wing or rotary crafts. The easiest way to deal with the 'intruder' UAS would be to shoot it down.

Would there be a way to force a UAS to land if the UAS operator is willing to allow the same ?

The main challenge would of direct communication between the operator of the UAS and the Pilot, considering a typical radio channel would not be open ?

Inputs anyone

 

[Gremlin29]

I wont say anything is impossible but I will say this would be highly improbable. You wont be able to establish coms unless it's a blue force UAS and only then, if you have their freq. It would be hard enough to establish coms on unsecured radios, forget about it if they are secure. You aren't likely to be able to get one to land by intercepting in the way we would see other aircraft being forced to land by a fighter ie flying along side, rocking wings and so forth, operators don't have the situational awareness that manned aircraft have.

 

[Bonza]

Considering the large numbers of Unmanned Aircraft Systems that are being deployed globally; it is increasingly feasible that UAS would be intercepted by Airborne Manned Fixed wing or rotary crafts. The easiest way to deal with the 'intruder' UAS would be to shoot it down.

Would there be a way to force a UAS to land if the UAS operator is willing to allow the same ?

The main challenge would of direct communication between the operator of the UAS and the Pilot, considering a typical radio channel would not be open ?

Inputs anyone

It's already happened once as far as I know - an Iraqi MiG-25 shot down a Predator drone back in 2002. I know this isn't exactly the information you're looking for, but for interest's sake I thought I'd mention it.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWUR3sgKUV8"]Dogfight between MQ-1 Predator drone and Mig-25 Foxbat - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[Todjaeger]

I wont say anything is impossible but I will say this would be highly improbable. You wont be able to establish coms unless it's a blue force UAS and only then, if you have their freq. It would be hard enough to establish coms on unsecured radios, forget about it if they are secure. You aren't likely to be able to get one to land by intercepting in the way we would see other aircraft being forced to land by a fighter ie flying along side, rocking wings and so forth, operators don't have the situational awareness that manned aircraft have.

Umm... AFAIK it is possible (improbable, yes but still...) to establish comms/control with a 'red' UAV. Particularly with the projected increase in number and type of AESA. This does start to get into SigInt/Int/EW areas though, as well as design features of the UAV and the comms/control interface.

-Cheers

 

[Gremlin29]

Well as I said it's not impossible but, highly improbable. To me trying to establish comms seems to be the first major hurdle to overcome and a major hurdle it would be. Additionally, many UAVs require site situated hardware to land ala Scan Eagle or Shadow.

 

[dragonfire]

Umm... AFAIK it is possible (improbable, yes but still...) to establish comms/control with a 'red' UAV. Particularly with the projected increase in number and type of AESA. This does start to get into SigInt/Int/EW areas though, as well as design features of the UAV and the comms/control interface.

-Cheers

Do UAV/UAS carry radios which can be hailed by opposing airborne units. The paradigm is very real i believe especially when one considers the number of units being inducted. If not opposing forces it could allied forces for e.g. an American system could be intercepted by the Canadians over their airspace which then would be preferred by either sides to be allowed to land safely than be attacked & destroyed / self-destroyed. How does the operator get contacted ? indirectly through ground control patches - which could possibly take for ever then again not successfully, or between operator and interceptor through some open channel/frequency - are the unmanned systems equipped thus

 

[Gremlin29]

Radio equipment is going to depend on the platform. About all a red force player could do is try to contact the UAV on VHF or UHF guard frequencies, there is one for each band and they are universal. Most UAV's don't have VHF or UHF radios and your never going to reach them on a secure net. Now before somebody chimes in that such and such UAV has UHF or VHF radio, reallize those large man carrying sized UAV's aren't "most" of the UAV world.

If a UAV was intercepted by a red force, all attempts to force it to land would be ignored. It would be best to destroy the assett than to let it fall into an opposing forces hands intact. Let them get their intel from a smoking hole in the ground. :smilie

 

[dragonfire]

It's already happened once as far as I know - an Iraqi MiG-25 shot down a Predator drone back in 2002. I know this isn't exactly the information you're looking for, but for interest's sake I thought I'd mention it.

Dogfight between MQ-1 Predator drone and Mig-25 Foxbat - YouTube

It has happened atleast 3 times; apart from US-Iraqi shoot down, there was a Georgian UAS shot down by Russian fighter A/c

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c4ZD2iQ1aI"]Russia downed our spy plane, Georgia says - YouTube[/nomedia]


Also an Indian UAV was shot down by Pakistan - a Nishant UAV iirc

 

[Ananda]

Considering the large numbers of Unmanned Aircraft Systems that are being deployed globally; it is increasingly feasible that UAS would be intercepted by Airborne Manned Fixed wing or rotary crafts. The easiest way to deal with the 'intruder' UAS would be to shoot it down.

It has happened atleast 3 times; apart from US-Iraqi shoot down, there was a Georgian UAS shot down by Russian fighter A/c

Is there a need for any Air Force to force an UAV down besides shooting it down ? Isn't that the point for UAV/drones, is to make them expendable if the situation like this happen ?

 

[Bonza]

It has happened atleast 3 times; apart from US-Iraqi shoot down, there was a Georgian UAS shot down by Russian fighter A/c

Russia downed our spy plane, Georgia says - YouTube


Also an Indian UAV was shot down by Pakistan - a Nishant UAV iirc

Doh! Don't know how I forgot about the Georgian UAV shoot down. I didn't know about the Pakistani-Indian one though, thanks for the info.

 

[Twinblade]

Also an Indian UAV was shot down by Pakistan - a Nishant UAV iirc

IIRC Nishant is yet to be inducted as per this Tarmak Report.

 

[Gremlin29]

Shooting them down is not a problem nor is the possibility disputed, the OP was asking about forcing them to land, ie capture intact.

 

[dragonfire]

IIRC Nishant is yet to be inducted as per this Tarmak Report.

It was the Searcher II - ran a quick search - it was in 2002 and it was downed by AIM-9L fired by a PAF F-16B. A while back 2 Nishants had crashed / brought down via parachute after control was lost, that must have cross my mind - thanks for the update

 

[dragonfire]

Is there a need for any Air Force to force an UAV down besides shooting it down ? Isn't that the point for UAV/drones, is to make them expendable if the situation like this happen ?

Pls read the Thread in detail. The point is the units are expensive and mostly are recce platforms only very few are armed. It might not always be an offensive sortie, it could be during training timelines etc etc. The point being we have seen only a very few such encounters so far but it is bound to go up; and it could happen any time and not just during a conflict because unlike a manned system and unmanned system could be used at any time in another airspace without risking an all out war.

 

[Ananda]

Pls read the Thread in detail. The point is the units are expensive and mostly are recce platforms only very few are armed. It might not always be an offensive sortie, it could be during training timelines etc etc. The point being we have seen only a very few such encounters so far but it is bound to go up; and it could happen any time and not just during a conflict because unlike a manned system and unmanned system could be used at any time in another airspace without risking an all out war.

Let me make my point clearer:
Is there a need from any air force to force land an UAV that threspass their airspace ? Why should they bother to force the drone to land when they now they can shoot it down ?

Afterall it's an UAV, and without any human lives at risk, shooting it down will cost them less diplomatically. It will create diplomatic problem, but much less then if human/pilot lives involved.

On the other hand, from the operator point of view, why should they put radio or any communication device in UAV ? It will add costs and weight when they now the most likely action from opposing when they can intercepted the UAV is shooting it down rather than communicate.

Sorry, it seems you assumed an Air Force will reacted the same when intercepting unmanned Drone with when they intercepting manned aircraft. Whille so far the reaction of an Air Force when intercepting UAV was shooting it down. Do you think it will be different in the future ?

Just stated my oppinion

 

[dragonfire]

Let me make my point clearer:
Is there a need from any air force to force land an UAV that threspass their airspace ? Why should they bother to force the drone to land when they now they can shoot it down ?

Afterall it's an UAV, and without any human lives at risk, shooting it down will cost them less diplomatically. It will create diplomatic problem, but much less then if human/pilot lives involved.

Intelligence.

From the POV of the interception unit/country/AF - Intelligence can be secured about Platforms, doctrine, sub-systems, technology, positional intelligence about the Forward operating areas, strengths, deployments etc

On the other hand, from the operator point of view, why should they put radio or any communication device in UAV ? It will add costs and weight when they now the most likely action from opposing when they can intercepted the UAV is shooting it down rather than communicate.

Sorry, it seems you assumed an Air Force will reacted the same when intercepting unmanned Drone with when they intercepting manned aircraft. Whille so far the reaction of an Air Force when intercepting UAV was shooting it down. Do you think it will be different in the future ?

Having radio equipment - depending on platform (if it is a micro platform it might be different) a radio in itself is not going to add a lot of weight/costs. It can help prevent blue-on-blue and it could help in successful retrieval of systems when an alternate option is provided other than destruction / successful egress.

Just stated my oppinion

Sure isnt that why we are all here

 

[Ananda]

It can help prevent blue-on-blue and it could help in successful retrieval of systems when an alternate option is provided other than destruction / successful egress.

Ahh, I see, so you concern on possible hostile action from friendly force when the drones being intercepted by them. Isn't large UAV ( MALE class above) now being equiped by IFF system ?

 

[Todjaeger]

There is also the potential intel gathering if a large UAV (Global Hawk, etc) were to be intercepted and 'captured'. The sensors and comm systems could be examined to give a better idea of the potential intel harvesting capability than just examining wreckage. Depending on what/how the capture was accomplished, it might be possible for the capturing force/side to start spoofing that particular UAV...

There are a number of events which could potentially be initiated as a result of a successful 'intercept'

-Cheers

 

[Gremlin29]

It would be pretty tough to spoof encrypted sat com links.

 

[Todjaeger]

It would be pretty tough to spoof encrypted sat com links.

The satcom was not what I was referring to in terms of spoofing. Sorry for being cryptic, but I hesitate to give people ideas.