Russian Air Force News & Discussion

[Haavarla]

Comrade69;231413]I wonder how much different that conflict would of gone if they did have a full squadron of Su-34's..

Who knows.. The Su-34 pack much improved EW systems.
The Su-34 was too little too late, thats all there is to it..

and how much longer does Russia plan on using any TU-22M3's? Are there even any concepts for potential replacements?

Pak-Da are light years away, so the Tu-22M3 will see lots of flying, and beside there is a good surpluss of em, IMO they still have lots of flight hour in em.
I think there are still an slow but ongoing upgrade to M3.. like Feanor says.

 

[Comrade69]

Lol im starting to think TU-22M3 will be the longest plane in service.

Wiki says first one rolled out in 1972

Lets say their replaced in 2025...

Thats 53 years of Service, of course it can go longer than that..

And I really hope Tupolev makes another TU bomber to replace the TU-22M3 One day...I really like their planes. Even thought I dont like the TU-22M3, from what I hear it has one hell of a workhorse engine...


And I really dont get Pak-DA, its a long range bomber, Russia has the TU-160 which is modern enough, why do they need 2 long range bombers in service.....cold war is over I dont see a need for long range bombers

 

[Haavarla]

RuAF and RuNavy cant just ditch the Tu-22M..
What then, rely on what.. 18 Tu-160 and a handfull of Tu-95s

It is not just the platform Tu-22M3 that is great, but also the weapons that goes with it.

The Kh-22 clubs are sort of half the platform deadly combination, the two of the have dealt great deal of concern for NATO. Nato got the refueling probe removed when the START agreement was signed years back. Which only goes to show what a great bomber this still is.

From up to 3 × Raduga Kh-22 missiles in weapons bay and on wing pylons or Six missiles on a MKU-6-1 rotary launcher in its bomb bay, plus four missiles on two underwing pylons for a total of ten missiles per aircraft.

Various freefall bombs - 69 × FAB-250 or 8 × FAB-1500 might be typical.

 

[Comrade69]

hmmm that is deadly

did they loose any M3's in the 2008 south ossetia conflict or were all those su-24's?

and can someone explain to me how the VVS lost any aircraft at all in that conflict, georgia used all of Russia's old equipment, I dont get how they wernt prepared

 

[T.C.P]

hmmm that is deadly

did they loose any M3's in the 2008 south ossetia conflict or were all those su-24's?

and can someone explain to me how the VVS lost any aircraft at all in that conflict, georgia used all of Russia's old equipment, I dont get how they wernt prepared

If I recall, they were shot down by BUK-M2 missile systems, which are very effective and advance medium range SAMs.

 

[Haavarla]

hmmm that is deadly

did they loose any M3's in the 2008 south ossetia conflict or were all those su-24's?

and can someone explain to me how the VVS lost any aircraft at all in that conflict, georgia used all of Russia's old equipment, I dont get how they wernt prepared

I think they lost an Tu-22MR or something, an recon version of the Tu-22M.
I do not understand why That Tu-22MR had to fly so low, could be poor optics and such, or just bad weather.. doesn't really matter, it got shot down anyway.

 

[Comrade69]

I never really got the south ossetia war to this day, im not trying to make a country vs country thread...

but was was Georgia seriously trying to accomplish when they invaded south ossestian territory?
to this day I still dont understand the point of that conflict

its like the same concept of Mexico attacking the US...

i just really hope the VVS learned something from that conflict, I just re-read the whole war on wiki(im bored, took me 2 hours) and its sad that it took Russia 3 days to get Air Superiority....that is beyond sad considering Georgia does not have a big or modern or experienced air force...

 

[Feanor]

I think they lost an Tu-22MR or something, an recon version of the Tu-22M.
I do not understand why That Tu-22MR had to fly so low, could be poor optics and such, or just bad weather.. doesn't really matter, it got shot down anyway.

Originally I assumed it was Tu-22MR from the 42nd Rgt because it was reported that it was on a recon flight. However, since then it's become less clear. It may indeed have been a Tu-22M3 on a bombing mission.

Anyways, the Buk-M1 is a rather capable SAM, which is why it got shot down, not because it was flying that low. The real issue isn't the Tu-22Ms, the problem is the lack of SEAD and DEAD assets, capabilities, and planning.

 

[Minuteman]

Originally I assumed it was Tu-22MR from the 42nd Rgt because it was reported that it was on a recon flight. However, since then it's become less clear. It may indeed have been a Tu-22M3 on a bombing mission.

Anyways, the Buk-M1 is a rather capable SAM, which is why it got shot down, not because it was flying that low. The real issue isn't the Tu-22Ms, the problem is the lack of SEAD and DEAD assets, capabilities, and planning.

Feanor is correct, I believe.

The best account I have read concerning the Russo-Georgian (air)War comes from Anton Lavrov’s chapter in “Tanks of August” published by the Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (Moscow, Russia) page 99ff. The source is online, but since this is my first post, I can't link yet.

According to Lavrov, RuAF lost the following six aircraft during the war:

SU-25BM – Russian MANPAD
TU-22M3 – Georgian SA-8B or SA-11 (it was on a bombing run)
SU-24M – Georgian GROM 2 MANPAD
SU-25SM – Unclear, damaged by Georgian MANPAD and on the way back to base, probably downed by South Ossetian MANPAD
SU-25BM – Probably Russian ZSU-23-4 Shilka possibly because the planes friend-or-foe system didn’t work correctly
SU-25M – Russian MANPAD

The main problem with RuAF in the Georgia-conflict weren’t the strike capability in any shape or form, it was the overall C4I and ISR capability. At least half of the losses were friendly fire (from both South Ossetian and Russian forces). Also, I believe that you have to count with losses when use CAS-aircraft in form of the SU-25, especially early in a conflict when you don’t have total air supremacy.

And this leads me to the question; are there any plans of increasing the ISR capability of the RuAF? UAV? Better integration of the different military branches? I know that there are plans for more reconnaissance satellites but will this have a real tactical effect on the battlefield?

 

[Haavarla]

According to AI by Piotr Butowski.
Two Su-30MS airframe are allready on the assembly lines at IAPO.
Quite possible these two will be delivered to Lipetsk for State Trials.

Most of the Su-30SM will function as advance trainers for the delayed Su-35S.
As the Su-30SM comes with full trainer configuration.

 

[Feanor]

According to AI by Piotr Butowski.
Two Su-30MS airframe are allready on the assembly lines at IAPO.
Quite possible these two will be delivered to Lipetsk for State Trials.

Most of the Su-30SM will function as advance trainers for the delayed Su-35S.
As the Su-30SM comes with full trainer configuration.

That makes no sense. Right now there are 2-4 trainers for every 24 fighters iirc. 4 Su-30M2 were purchased for just that purpose, have already been deployed to the airbases that are to receive the Su-35S and are being used to prepare pilots for it right now. 28 Su-30SM for the VVS is far too many. That's a whole regiment in and of itself, plus 4 trainers. They can't just be advanced trainers unless they're meant to be trainers for the PAK-FA. But that doesn't make sense either given the differences in the cockpit.

 

[Haavarla]

Here is a more complete picture of the article.

Su-30SM
In 2012 the Russian defence minestry is also expected to ordeder yet another 'Flanker' variant, the Su-30SM. Initially, during 2012-15 the VVS vill receive 28 aircraft, with an additional 12 to be delivered to Ru Naval Aviation.
The Su-30SM will be a Russian Su-30MKI as Manufactured by IAPO for Algeri, India and Malaysia.
At IAPO production facility, assembly of fuselages for the first two Su-30MS are in progress.
Russia has ordered the Su-30MS mainly as advanced combat trainers.
These aircraft could be used in the last stage of pilot training for the Su-35S which has an uniqe and complex avionics suite compaired to older Su-27SM versions.
The Su-35S has today no equivalent two-seater version, as well as for the first Pak-Fa units, before its own two-seat version appears.

The four Su-30M2 are combat trainers for all the Su-27SM in current service of the VVS.
The bort nr 20 has been delivered to Dzmegi airbase.
Bort nr 40 delivered to Tsentralnaya Uglovaya.
Bort nr 10 and 30 delivered to the 6972th airbase at Krymsk in Caucasus.

 

[Haavarla]

An update on Su-27SM3.

In 2011, Krymsk received the first four Su-27SM3 with bort nr 51-54, the remaining eight will been completed and delivered late or end of 2011.
Previosly, the KnAAPO facility had upgraded 55 Su-27 to SM standards and delivered them to Dzemegi and Tsentralnaya Uglovaya bases. In contrast with the Su-27SM, the Su-27SM3 are newly build rather than mid-life upgrades.
They feature further enhancments including addition of the R-77-1 medium-range AAM, this missile was launched by a Su-27SM3 for the first time in late september 2010.

 

[swerve]

I never really got the south ossetia war to this day, im not trying to make a country vs country thread...

but was was Georgia seriously trying to accomplish when they invaded south ossestian territory?
to this day I still dont understand the point of that conflict

its like the same concept of Mexico attacking the US...

No, it's like Mexico invading Sonora after it's rebelled, & the USA sending in troops. South Ossetia was (still is, legally) part of Georgia, not Russia. Georgia was trying to bring it back under control quickly, before Russian troops arrived in force, & then sit down & negotiate from an improved position. The only road from Russia to S. Ossetia runs through a tunnel, so if Georgia had got control of the mouth of the tunnel, a Russian intervention would have been difficult & expensive.

It was a blunder. The Georgian army wasn't well organised enough for such an operation, & the plan failed to take account of the fury it would have provoked in Russia if it had succeeded. But the logic is clear, even if one can see the flaws.

 

[Klaus]

The latest Air International features an interesting article concerning Russian UAVs. According to it the Searcher II and Bird Eye will soon be produced under license in Russia as the Forpost and Zastava. An indigenously designed UAV, the Luch, will also serve as a reconaissance platform to deliver target information to Iskander-units.

New to me was that Sukhoi is already developing an UCAV with MiG acting as a major subcontractor. At MAKS a model of the so-called Letayushchyj Almaz/Flying Diamond-UCAV was displayed, which is thought to have been designed by MiG.

What I am asking myself is which role these UCAVs are destined for. Regarding the specifications of MiGs initial Skat-Design, such an UCAV could be used as a replacement for the Su 25. But afaik Yakovlev is already developing a new light strike aircraft, while after 2020 there will still be enough Su 24s left, which will have to be replaced. For this a new bomber would be required, but aren't aircraft in the 10-20 ton-class just a bit to small to act as a replacement for the Su 24?

 

[Haavarla]

Upgraded A-50U enter service.

Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: ÂÂÑ Ðîññèè âîîðóæèëèñü íîâûì ëåòàþùèì ðàäàðîì

Another Mig-31BM delivered, hasn't got the bort nr yet.. must be the first test flight after new coating or something..

http://russianplanes.net/images/to58000/057615.jpg

Tu-142M3 delivered.

http://russianplanes.net/images/to58000/057612.jpg

 

[Comrade69]

No, it's like Mexico invading Sonora after it's rebelled, & the USA sending in troops. South Ossetia was (still is, legally) part of Georgia, not Russia. Georgia was trying to bring it back under control quickly, before Russian troops arrived in force, & then sit down & negotiate from an improved position. The only road from Russia to S. Ossetia runs through a tunnel, so if Georgia had got control of the mouth of the tunnel, a Russian intervention would have been difficult & expensive.

It was a blunder. The Georgian army wasn't well organised enough for such an operation, & the plan failed to take account of the fury it would have provoked in Russia if it had succeeded. But the logic is clear, even if one can see the flaws.

so basically they wanted to take over south ossetia before russia arrived and once they have the town under control they wanted to sit down and negotiate?

that kind of makes sense except...russia had their peacekeeping troops there and georgia would have to wipe them out to take control, i dont know if Russia would be in a good negotiating mood after having 2000/3000 of their peacekeeping troops killed.

 

[Feanor]

so basically they wanted to take over south ossetia before russia arrived and once they have the town under control they wanted to sit down and negotiate?

that kind of makes sense except...russia had their peacekeeping troops there and georgia would have to wipe them out to take control, i dont know if Russia would be in a good negotiating mood after having 2000/3000 of their peacekeeping troops killed.

Russia had iirc 400 peacekeepers there, and you're absolutely right. Even if Georgia was militarily 100% successful, the damage they would take from Russian air and missile strikes would be bad, to put it mildly, and a second front in Abkhazia was more then likely.

 

[Feanor]

Another Mig-31BM delivered, hasn't got the bort nr yet.. must be the first test flight after new coating or something..

http://russianplanes.net/images/to58000/057615.jpg

How do you visually identify the BMs? And do you have any more detailed info on where they are going? At this point in time there should be in the 12-24 ballpark of BMs.

Tu-142M3 delivered.

http://russianplanes.net/images/to58000/057612.jpg

Interesting. Is it a newly-built/rebuilt airframe, or is it just overhauled from VVS service aircraft? The M3 isn't a new modification, so this isn't a modernization.

 

[Haavarla]

Well, the Mig-31 got two Hard points under Wings. And look at the Cockpit glasses.. it is coated.. It look Freshly coated with paint and there are numerous new service Hatches on nose section. Possible on the upgraded Radar..

Just prior to MAKS2011, VVS ordered a further stage at around 30 more.
Mig-31BM upgrade has been made sinse 2008, based on the upgraded radar, this will work with the new Medium R-77-1 and a new R-37M missile.
I'm not sure of the total number of Mig-31BM..
But approx 20-30 BM operational now and some 30 more coming.

Source: C A Monthly.

In terms of Bang for the Bucks, the BM foxhound upgrade are great. VVS got all those Mig-31 in service, even if they are expensive to operate, they are very good interceptors, especial for VVS defence.
I don't care what peoples opinion about them are. They are indeed Hi-end of the VVS structure, they see a lot of flying hours, and the need for their niche operation mission are still deterent in it self.

I'm not very familiar on the Tu-142 ball park..