Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[battlensign]

It's likely, but not absolutely guaranteed. They've done the bulk of the Exercise Sea Lion amphibious exercises so they are probably the most comfortable in the role but who knows?

They might have given it to 3RAR to mollify them a bit after losing their precious airborne role?

This is probably going to sound like a dumb question but.......

Would Battalion Orbat dictate that this role go to 3RAR?

I am vaguely recalling a post on one of the forums a fair while ago that indicated that, as the traditionally high-readiness units of the Army,1and 2 RAR maintained 4 Rifle Companies each. This was contrasted with the other Battalions which typically maintained only 3. The only exception seemed to be the old 4RAR, when it was expanded under the Howard Government. If the news article is accurate then there are only three rotations and if the Battalion Orbat for 1 and 2RAR is 4 companies then I would think 3RAR would have to be tapped for the role.

This post I'm trying to recall seemed to mirror older published material from around the Phantom to Force report time-frame that indicated 3rd Brigade was manned to around 85% and 1st Brigade at around 70%.

Can anyone with insight into the green side of things confirm any of this of provide more informed analysis?

Cheers

B.

 

[Volkodav]

Well actually there is a lot of important information in that article. The Army has announced which model they will follow to form the ARG. They have chosen option 1 of 3 which is to allocate a single battlegroup the specialist role. Makes sense.

Looks like you were right on how the spare Btn was going to be used. Three companies / combat teams I wonder if they will rename them squadrons and the Btn a Commando......: Hey thats it each company will become a Commando and the Btn will become the 3rd Commando Regiment. I better e-mail my mate Ian McNob and let him know.

 

[Raven22]

Well actually there is a lot of important information in that article. The Army has announced which model they will follow to form the ARG. They have chosen option 1 of 3 which is to allocate a single battlegroup the specialist role. Makes sense.

Actually, that article doesn't reveal anything except that the author is a moron. All that has been decided is that 3 Bde will be the formation that conducts all the trials and development for the amphib capability. The ARG/ARE won't replace the RCT/RBG until the first LHD comes online. Until then, everything will simply be trials. However, it is almost certain that the amphib battlegroup will be based out of Townsville.

It's likely, but not absolutely guaranteed. They've done the bulk of the Exercise Sea Lion amphibious exercises so they are probably the most comfortable in the role but who knows?

They might have given it to 3RAR to mollify them a bit after losing their precious airborne role?

The battalion 'chosen' depends on the model chosen, but it will probably depend on where each battalion is in the deployment cycle. For instance, 2 RAR are deployed now, 3 RAR are the RBG and deploy next year. So 1 RAR are doing trials now, but when 2 RAR get back, 1 RAR will become the RBG as 3 RAR deploys, so 2 RAR will probably do the trials. It really depends when the D is made as to who gets what.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Actually, that article doesn't reveal anything except that the author is a moron. All that has been decided is that 3 Bde will be the formation that conducts all the trials and development for the amphib capability. The ARG/ARE won't replace the RCT/RBG until the first LHD comes online. Until then, everything will simply be trials. However, it is almost certain that the amphib battlegroup will be based out of Townsville.

No doubt he left out the important words from Maj.Gen. Calgari about having a single battlegroup specialist in the role rotating an at sea combat team was just ONE of the options. Anyway, at least, confirmation via you that things are narrowed done to options 1 and 2. With option 3 rotating the ARG amongst all the battle groups in the Army being junked.

With the Army committed to Townsville for the ARG - which makes lots of sense as there is going to be three infantry battalions there, 5 Avn Regt at Garbut and 10 FSB at Ross River - now we need to see the Navy back this up. By basing the amphibious fleet (2 LHDs, 1 LSD, 6 LSMs, 12 LCMs) at Townsville. Port of Townsville is being expanded so a major naval base could be worked in there.

 

[icelord]

I was just wondering what else goes to sea in our LHD's Canberra class?

So I am guessing the 300 troops but what else? what air wing will be at sea? any tigers? Will the ships have a default deployment arrangement or will they be set up according to what they are doing and where they are going?

The air wing will at this stage consist of one Navy wing, being most likely the navys MRH90, while the Army MRH90 will be used when at sea for amphib excercises or deployments. At this stage theres no reason to place a seahawk onboard such as the new Romeos we are getting as a frigate would sail with a LHD to cover its Anti-Submarine capability.

Tigers would be used during excercises, from what ive gathered they wont have the ability to stay perminatly onboard like the US Cobra as its not designed for stowage on a ship, or the corrosion from sea salt spray. Also with the numbers this would only be again with an amphib group.

The crew list thats available to defence shows a standard crew arrangment, with ability to expand. This entails a full complement of navy, 2 RAAF air controllers, around 120 Ships Army Detachment spread across the ship, cooks, stewards, stores and then transports Corps soldiers for movement of vehicles and alike.
There are bunks set for Joint Operations Command, such as Amphib PWOs, Army Commanders, Fleet Battle Staff, Int, Sigs and Comms from both services, and any one else required for Command and Control Environment.

Crew numbers for Canberra are looking at 360 mark at this stage for Full complement

With the Army committed to Townsville for the ARG - which makes lots of sense as there is going to be three infantry battalions there, 5 Avn Regt at Garbut and 10 FSB at Ross River - now we need to see the Navy back this up. By basing the amphibious fleet (2 LHDs, 1 LSD, 6 LSMs, 12 LCMs) at Townsville. Port of Townsville is being expanded so a major naval base could be worked in there.

:eek i bloody well hope not. We move all that to Townsville, which is for all intent an Army City, and the MPs and Coxswains will have their work set for them. If we could base them in Cairns, then that would be ideal, as its well, Cairns and not townsville...

 

[Raven22]

Anyway, at least, confirmation via you that things are narrowed done to options 1 and 2. With option 3 rotating the ARG amongst all the battle groups in the Army being junked.

I wouldn't say the third option is necessarily junked, but it certainly won't be the initial option. Due to the reasons you listed, it makes sense for the ARG to be based out if Townsville (hence 3 Bde) intitially from 2013/14. This is still far from ideal, as where do the Cavalry (for the ARE and ARG) and Tanks (for the ARG) come from? When Plan Beersheba takes full effect next decade, and the ARG has been running for a while and the initial teething issues worked out, it is possible a different option might be the enduring solution.

It's actually quite good for me, because I will still be posted to 3 Bde next year, so I should be able to wangle my way onto some of the trials. Sure beats simply driving grunts around at High Range.

:eek i bloody well hope not. We move all that to Townsville, which is for all intent an Army City, and the MPs and Coxswains will have their work set for them. If we could base them in Cairns, then that would be ideal, as its well, Cairns and not townsville...

What's the problem, scared of a few Army blokes..? Personally I'm waiting for the fun of when 3 RAR rocks up early next year. There's going to be 3 RAR diggers thinking they're the toughest blokes in town because they're paratroopers, there's going to be 2 RAR diggers thinking they're the toughest blokes in town because they just got back from Afghanistan, and 1 RAR diggers thinking they're the toughest blokes in because they're big and blue. It should make Flinders Street quite lively on a Friday night.

 

[rand0m]

I have no idea of what is has actually being looked at for the LCH; I just came across the Jane's article in my travels.

The LCH replacement is phase 5 of JP2048

First pass for the LCH is not until FY2012/13 to FY2014/15 - so there is a little time yet. I am curious about the various emerging options, capabilities and technologies that are being developed, there seems to be quite a bit of work going on.
The fact that the RAN have at least looked at the L-Cat design means they are looking at various options.

The RAN seem to be looking for cosiderably more capability that traditional designs

from DCP2009:


from White Paper


budget wise the DCP has estimated - Level 2 High $500m-$1500m (Towards the lower end of the band). That gives a reasonable cost ballpark of $85m to $250m per unit for discussing the various options and capabilities to replace the 6 Balikpapan class.

I guess the next question is what is the approximate/estimated costs for systems such as:

• - JHSV
• - MPV
• - MPC2
• - Caimen-200

Revive of an old topic.
Any new news on Project JP 2048 Phase 3? From a basic overall perspective the Caimen-200 looks to be the best direct replacement of the Balikpapan class. However, has the role & purpose of these ships changed seeing the introduction of the LHD's & LPD on the horizon?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

:eek i bloody well hope not. We move all that to Townsville, which is for all intent an Army City, and the MPs and Coxswains will have their work set for them. If we could base them in Cairns, then that would be ideal, as its well, Cairns and not townsville...

Apart from not having the sailors chased off the streets after dark Cairns would be a better base because you have established navy and ship engineering facilities there (NQEA) but how are you going to fit 2 LHDs, 1 LSD and 6 LSMs into Trinity Inlet? Cairns is only eight hours or so sail away from Townsville so there would be little issue with rapid response. Townsville port is much bigger than Cairns and more capacity to grow. Of course the other option is basing south rather than north and use Mackay Harbour. Which has more room than Townsville. If you can fit the amphibs into Cairns it would be much better.

 

[swerve]

:eek i bloody well hope not. We move all that to Townsville, which is for all intent an Army City, and the MPs and Coxswains will have their work set for them. If we could base them in Cairns, then that would be ideal, as its well, Cairns and not townsville...

An army city? Maybe if the whole Australian army was based there. There aren't enough soldiers in relation to population for it to be a real army city. It's nothing like Aldershot (a fraction the size, more soldiers), which really is an army town.

 

[ThePuss]

Apart from not having the sailors chased off the streets after dark Cairns would be a better base because you have established navy and ship engineering facilities there (NQEA) but how are you going to fit 2 LHDs, 1 LSD and 6 LSMs into Trinity Inlet? Cairns is only eight hours or so sail away from Townsville so there would be little issue with rapid response. Townsville port is much bigger than Cairns and more capacity to grow. Of course the other option is basing south rather than north and use Mackay Harbour. Which has more room than Townsville. If you can fit the amphibs into Cairns it would be much better.

This whole argument is silly.... The navy WILL base the LHD's at FBE and Will move any ship to the west that they need too to make them fit. The Army needs the couple of days it takes the "PHAT's" ships will take to sail up the coast to stage their assets anyway so this argument is absurd.

At the end of the day East gets all the "Cool" toys and the West is the "Working" navy...We accept that and are used to it.... All the "Career officers" want to live on the east so we in the west have no option but to suck it up and get the cast off's.

 

[icelord]

This whole argument is silly.... The navy WILL base the LHD's at FBE and Will move any ship to the west that they need too to make them fit. The Army needs the couple of days it takes the "PHAT's" ships will take to sail up the coast to stage their assets anyway so this argument is absurd.

At the end of the day East gets all the "Cool" toys and the West is the "Working" navy...We accept that and are used to it.... All the "Career officers" want to live on the east so we in the west have no option but to suck it up and get the cast off's.

You can have the careers officers, make bigger douche COs and XOs, the ones who dont care about the 4th ring are always better to work for.

Apart from not having the sailors chased off the streets after dark Cairns would be a better base because you have established navy and ship engineering facilities there (NQEA) but how are you going to fit 2 LHDs, 1 LSD and 6 LSMs into Trinity Inlet? Cairns is only eight hours or so sail away from Townsville so there would be little issue with rapid response. Townsville port is much bigger than Cairns and more capacity to grow. Of course the other option is basing south rather than north and use Mackay Harbour. Which has more room than Townsville. If you can fit the amphibs into Cairns it would be much better.

When the Govt. looks at their whole 'moving bases' proposal one of them will probabley be where to move the amphibs. I wouldnt expect FBE to be moved, but a FBNE would be possible.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

This whole argument is silly.... The navy WILL base the LHD's at FBE and Will move any ship to the west that they need too to make them fit. The Army needs the couple of days it takes the "PHAT's" ships will take to sail up the coast to stage their assets anyway so this argument is absurd.

This isn’t just about response to a crisis but also about training. Having the amphibs located with or at least close by enables frequent joint training. If the amphibs have to put to sea for serval days just to pick up the soldiers then they will only train together a few times every year. Even Cairns is in many ways too far as you can’t easily do overnighters or port side day training together.

As to the service politics issues of the Navy this is no surprise and will have to be one of the things managed. Look how long its taken the army to get 3RAR to Townsville and into a more usable format. But the LHDs are a joint asset and if the fleet club thinks they are going to have them to play sea battles with they are kidding themselves.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

When the Govt. looks at their whole 'moving bases' proposal one of them will probabley be where to move the amphibs. I wouldnt expect FBE to be moved, but a FBNE would be possible.

The other big issue is the 6 LSMs to replace the LCH (JP 2048/5) these are going to go from patrol boat sized to frigate sized. They aren't going to be able to tie up at Waterhen, Cairns or Larrakia with ease. They will need space at FBE or FBW or a new base.

 

[Kirkzzy]

This may sound really dumb, but why doesn't the army (assuming they are only using one battalion for the role atm) move a battalion to Holsworthy? Is this due to the fact that the climate in Townsville suits where they will most likely be deployed?

 

[StevoJH]

This may sound really dumb, but why doesn't the army (assuming they are only using one battalion for the role atm) move a battalion to Holsworthy? Is this due to the fact that the climate in Townsville suits where they will most likely be deployed?

Because the battalions are (mostly) based by the brigade they are part of.

1st Brigade - Darwin
3rd Brigade - Townsville
7th Brigade - Brisbane

2 Commando is still at Hosworthy, though they arent part of the "regular" army anymore.

 

[Kirkzzy]

Because the battalions are (mostly) based by the brigade they are part of.

1st Brigade - Darwin
3rd Brigade - Townsville
7th Brigade - Brisbane

2 Commando is still at Hosworthy, though they arent part of the "regular" army anymore.

I understand that but, 3rd Brigade is going to have an extra battalion compared to the other brigades anyway. Wouldn't it be easier to make whatever battalion from 3rd Brigade that is chosen "independent"... unless of course the main elements of the ARG are to be drawn from 3rd Brigade. As I was thinking, if say the 3rd's ACR was deployed, than wouldn't the resources for the ARG come from the other brigade's ACRs anyway?

 

[Raven22]

This may sound really dumb, but why doesn't the army (assuming they are only using one battalion for the role atm) move a battalion to Holsworthy? Is this due to the fact that the climate in Townsville suits where they will most likely be deployed?

Mate, there already is a battalion at Holsworthy - 3 RAR. It's moving to Townsville. Where the ships are based and the troops based is almost irrelevant to the concept. Don't think there will only be 'one battalion' that makes up the ARG. There might only be one infantry battalion involved, but it takes all the resources of a brigade (a proper brigade, not 3 Bde) to generate all the components of the ARG. Thr ARG will take elements from the brigade's armoured units (currently tank, ASLAV and PMV), engineers from the engineer regiment, guns and other stuff from the artillery regiment, a CSST from the CSSB and staff officers from the Bde HQ. Not to mention the helicopters, movers, SF etc that come from outside the manoeuvre brigade. A full ARG is 2200 dudes. The infantry battalion will be roughly one third of that.

There's no point keeping an isolated unit in Sydney if it takes all the resources from a brigade based up north to generate the capability.

 

[Sea Toby]

Mate, there already is a battalion at Holsworthy - 3 RAR. It's moving to Townsville. Where the ships are based and the troops based is almost irrelevant to the concept. Don't think there will only be 'one battalion' that makes up the ARG. There might only be one infantry battalion involved, but it takes all the resources of a brigade (a proper brigade, not 3 Bde) to generate all the components of the ARG. Thr ARG will take elements from the brigade's armoured units (currently tank, ASLAV and PMV), engineers from the engineer regiment, guns and other stuff from the artillery regiment, a CSST from the CSSB and staff officers from the Bde HQ. Not to mention the helicopters, movers, SF etc that come from outside the manoeuvre brigade. A full ARG is 2200 dudes. The infantry battalion will be roughly one third of that.

There's no point keeping an isolated unit in Sydney if it takes all the resources from a brigade based up north to generate the capability.

Australia isn't a small nation, its of good size. Its around 1600 nautical miles from Sydney to Cairns and 1400 nautical miles to Townsville. If an amphibious ship has a crew aboard in Sydney it will take at least three days before the ship is prepared to load any troops at either considering a ship's speed is around 20 knots. Therefore, any sealift deployment most likely won't reach its destination for at least a week nearby in the South Pacific or west coast of Australia. Any quicker troop deployment requires usage of transport aircraft.

I think its wise that one amphibious ship on call should be based in a port within 240 nautical miles of Townsville, 12 hours, i.e., overnight, if you wish for quicker deployment times. It doesn't matter where the other amphibious ships are based, thus Sydney is as good as any other port...

Unfortunately, a ship's crews families don't wish to move all of the time, thus either all of the amphibious ships move to a new base or the nation lives with the time reality...

 

[Raven22]

Once the capability is stood up, the ARE will be permanently embarked, or close enough to it. That makes any distances essentially irrelevant. The ARE is capable of disaster relief and NEO, which are really the only contingencies that need a response most ricky tick. Any contingency that requires the entire ARG will be big enough that a trip up the east coast won't make a difference.

 

[Kirkzzy]

Once the capability is stood up, the ARE will be permanently embarked, or close enough to it.

Thanks for that piece of info, cleared up my concerns.

There might only be one infantry battalion involved, but it takes all the resources of a brigade (a proper brigade, not 3 Bde) to generate all the components of the ARG.

Ah, so the ARG will be formed from whichever Brigade is available at the time.