Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ADMk2]

This info on Mcphedran talking about Sub costs has really come as a massive revelation. I got a phone call earlier in the week from my father asking about Australian subs. So after explaining how they are a political football, very capable, with some unfortunate yet exaggerated breakdowns and that News Limited has a "hold crusade" against them he replied that he read about how US subs cost less to operate and were much larger. So I started wondering why he called me in the first place about it, he said he just read some "article" in a newspaper... just realised who wrote it, Ian ****inf Mcphedran.

I looked it up (Courier Mail) and the article was pretty much going on about how operating US subs would cost half as much and how they are way more capable. The article in good News Limited fashion also went on about how only 1/3 of the fleet is "could go to war and with a maximum of three available at any one time". It's funny how after all this time they still don't understand the deployment cycle.

I think he;'s just pissed at the Collins because he didn't get the book deal to write the "truth" about them.

In any case, he's a goose of the highest order. A worthy member of the Clown Club.

 

[Kirkzzy]

If anyone has been watching "The Hamster Wheel" (New Chaser show) ,which comically highlights media bull, in relation to this it really makes me think there should be a law that does not permit the media to lie.

btw fftopic sorry about that.

 

[Milne Bay]

If anyone has been watching "The Hamster Wheel" (New Chaser show) ,which comically highlights media bull, in relation to this it really makes me think there should be a law that does not permit the media to lie.

btw fftopic sorry about that.

There've been reports that there were rumours that there is talk going around that senior figures are opposed to such a law...........

 

[t68]

Here’s a small side ways shot of ADF Choules showing the Australian flag and aircraft hanger, give an indication on how large it is. Will the hanger stay up permanently or will it be erected when needed, how long does it take to set up and take down?

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/dyvroeth/6246114779/in/photostream/"]HMAS Choules (L100) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!@@AMEPARAM@@http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6057/6246114779_8680f15394_m.jpg@@AMEPARAM@@6246114779@@AMEPARAM@@8680f15394[/ame]

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/dyvroeth/6246636466/in/photostream/"]HMAS Choules (L100) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!@@AMEPARAM@@http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6180/6246636466_3fa7306c3f_m.jpg@@AMEPARAM@@6246636466@@AMEPARAM@@3fa7306c3f[/ame]

 

[hairyman]

The finding against Bolt in the white aboriginal issue should go someway towards getting the media to pull its horns in! Then again, maybe not.

 

[StevoJH]

They should commission it over there as soon as it passes all its Sea Trials.

Needs the White Ensign up the front, rather then the blue Australian Flag.

 

[ngatimozart]

They should commission it over there as soon as it passes all its Sea Trials.

Needs the White Ensign up the front, rather then the blue Australian Flag.

True and then you can have two booze ups to celebrate. Oh that's right all our services are politically correct these days and boozy run ashores are not tolerated any more. Are they going to pipe "splice the mainbrace" for all RAN senior & junior rates?

I presume that the RAN is similar to the RNZN in customs which we both got from the RN. If that is the case, The Jack (National Flag) is flown from the Jack Stay (on the bow) when alongside or at anchor. So the Choules being alongside is flying the correct flag. The White Ensign is always flown from the stay the stern whilst alongside or at anchor. As soon the ship is under way i.e., sailing then both these flags are hauled down and the White Ensign is flown from the mainmast. However in Choules case she cannot wear the RAN White Ensign until she is formally commissioned into RAN service so she will fly the Blue Ensign which is the Australian national flag. Now I think that's right because I have done it from memory and I had that drummed in over 20 years ago.

Our Navies are very strong on tradition. I was in the RNZN on the day it issued its last daily tot of squirt. Second most miserable day in my life. That caused undue and long psychological harm to a lot of Kiwi matelots

 

[StevoJH]

However in Choules case she cannot wear the RAN White Ensign until she is formally commissioned into RAN service so she will fly the Blue Ensign which is the Australian national flag.

Wouldn't she fly the Australian Red ensign?

 

[ngatimozart]

Wouldn't she fly the Australian Red ensign?

No because she is a government ship she wears the blue ensign. Any government vessel like Federal Police, Customs vessels etc., wear the blue ensign or their own ensigns if they have them. All non government entities like you and I are entitled to wear the red ensign. Being ex-pussers I'm trying to lay me hands on a RNZN White Ensign. I see HM The Queen is visiting you fullas at the moment. She'll have a flag that she flies only when she is in Australia.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Wouldn't she fly the Australian Red ensign?

Red is commercial/merchant

 

[ngatimozart]

Red is commercial/merchant

Any non government vessel from a rowboat up, not just commercial & merchantmen as long as, in your case, the owner is a citizen, resident or legal entity residing in Australia. I am not trying to be pedantic, but there always is confusion around this.

 

[aussienscale]

Any non government vessel from a rowboat up, not just commercial & merchantmen as long as, in your case, the owner is a citizen, resident or legal entity residing in Australia. I am not trying to be pedantic, but there always is confusion around this.

You and GF are correct, the ceremonial requirements of all of this is contained in RANCP1 which list's all ceremonial rules and regs for such things, also has sunrise & sunset, dipping the sea ensign etc
A product of 8 years living and breathing this when I was in the puss, ceremonial was a big part of our duties

Also prior to commissiong Australian ships are normally refered to as "Nuship" Choules

 

[icelord]

No because she is a government ship she wears the blue ensign. Any government vessel like Federal Police, Customs vessels etc., wear the blue ensign or their own ensigns if they have them. All non government entities like you and I are entitled to wear the red ensign. Being ex-pussers I'm trying to lay me hands on a RNZN White Ensign. I see HM The Queen is visiting you fullas at the moment. She'll have a flag that she flies only when she is in Australia.

The queen has displayed hers already on her car.
Ive always been proud of the Japanese ensign i scored of a US ship based there, traded a bosuns call for it...good trade!

Our Navies are very strong on tradition. I was in the RNZN on the day it issued its last daily tot of squirt. Second most miserable day in my life. That caused undue and long psychological harm to a lot of Kiwi matelots

Considering you guys dont have drinking restrictions like we do, like the two beers, per man, per day, perhaps rule...which basically means good luck getting beer issue, i wouldnt complain too much.

 

[ngatimozart]

The queen has displayed hers already on her car.
Ive always been proud of the Japanese ensign i scored of a US ship based there, traded a bosuns call for it...good trade!

In the early 90's I traded a RNZN beret for a soviet navy belt buckle and i reckon tha was best trade I did!

Considering you guys dont have drinking restrictions like we do, like the two beers, per man, per day, perhaps rule...which basically means good luck getting beer issue, i wouldnt complain too much.

Earlier this year a Frigate CO lost his command straight away because of excessive alcohol intake at an official function in the Islands somewhere. They certainly don't have the tolerance for it now that they did when I was in 20 years ago.

 

[icelord]

In the early 90's I traded a RNZN beret for a soviet navy belt buckle and i reckon tha was best trade I did!

Earlier this year a Frigate CO lost his command straight away because of excessive alcohol intake at an official function in the Islands somewhere. They certainly don't have the tolerance for it now that they did when I was in 20 years ago.

HA! it sounds like these two ships that were in the West while we were there, they had a cocktail party and the ships company working had to escort every guest and officer off the gangway or to their cabins, they both had Te in their name...

One of thems TASO i had drinks with in FBW when we pulled up, he talked about how him and the CO would sit on the quarterdeck and have beers...we met these guys again in singapore and had us, a Royal countrys Navy... and ourselves indulge in a few drinks in the city:coffee

 

[ngatimozart]

HA! it sounds like these two ships that were in the West while we were there, they had a cocktail party and the ships company working had to escort every guest and officer off the gangway or to their cabins, they both had Te in their name...

One of thems TASO i had drinks with in FBW when we pulled up, he talked about how him and the CO would sit on the quarterdeck and have beers...we met these guys again in singapore and had us, a Royal countrys Navy... and ourselves indulge in a few drinks in the city:coffee

As mentioned earlier the Navy, is very much into tradition and what is more traditional than a good run ashore and a weaving course back onboard. One must indulge in the occasional intake of alcohol, purely to defend the honour of the Navy of course, and me old man always said you should have more than one drink because a bird can't fly on one wing

 

[Pusser01]

True and then you can have two booze ups to celebrate. Oh that's right all our services are politically correct these days and boozy run ashores are not tolerated any more. Are they going to pipe "splice the mainbrace" for all RAN senior & junior rates?

I presume that the RAN is similar to the RNZN in customs which we both got from the RN. If that is the case, The Jack (National Flag) is flown from the Jack Stay (on the bow) when alongside or at anchor. So the Choules being alongside is flying the correct flag. The White Ensign is always flown from the stay the stern whilst alongside or at anchor. As soon the ship is under way i.e., sailing then both these flags are hauled down and the White Ensign is flown from the mainmast. However in Choules case she cannot wear the RAN White Ensign until she is formally commissioned into RAN service so she will fly the Blue Ensign which is the Australian national flag. Now I think that's right because I have done it from memory and I had that drummed in over 20 years ago.

Our Navies are very strong on tradition. I was in the RNZN on the day it issued its last daily tot of squirt. Second most miserable day in my life. That caused undue and long psychological harm to a lot of Kiwi matelots

A signal came out saying that until she is commissioned she will be known as ADFSHIP Choules and that when she is in overseas ports she will fly the AWE aft & ANF at the bow, when at sea AWE from the mast. She won't be allowed to fly the AWE in an Australian port until she is commissioned in Freo.
Cheers

 

[alexsa]

Red is commercial/merchant

Actually it is all prefaced on who owns the ship. For "National colours" carried by a government ship this is covered by the Shipping Registration Act 1981. Under s.13 of the act a government ship is exmept from registration BUT the flag is covered by s.29 and s.30

In this case it may fly the national flag OR the red Ensign. It is not an 'only blue' option.

I am more interested in who owns and operates the vessels and hope like billeo it is at least DOD (preferably RAN) owned and Navy operated. Otherwise the Navigation Act 1912 would then apply as the disallowacne provisions of s.3 wouldl not apply

3 Act does not apply to naval ships etc.
Except where the contrary intention appears, this Act does not apply to or in relation to a ship belonging to, or operated by:
(a) the Australian Defence Force; or
(b) the naval, military or air forces of a country other than Australia.

I would expect (hope) the ship is "operated" by the RAN even though it is not commissioned.

 

[alexsa]

Any non government vessel from a rowboat up, not just commercial & merchantmen as long as, in your case, the owner is a citizen, resident or legal entity residing in Australia. I am not trying to be pedantic, but there always is confusion around this.

Not really that simple................ sorry to bore you with the details but here goes....

Division 4—Nationality and national Colours
29 Certain ships to have Australian nationality
(1) The following ships shall, for all purposes, be taken to be Australian ships and to have Australian nationality:
(a) registered ships;
(b) unregistered ships (other than ships required to be registered), being:
(i) Australian‑owned ships referred to in section 13 [this includes Government ships but see below];
(ii) ships wholly owned by residents of Australia or by residents of Australia and Australian nationals; or
(iii) ships operated solely by residents of Australia or Australian nationals or both.
(2) Nothing in subsection (1) shall be taken to alter the character of a ship as an article of personal property.
(3) In this section, unregistered ship means a ship that is not registered under this Act or under the law of a foreign country.

30 National colours and other flags
(1) It is hereby declared that the national colours for Australian ships are:
(a) in the case of ships registered by virtue of section 12 or ships (other than ships referred to in section 13) registered by virtue of paragraph 14(d)—the red ensign; and
(b) in any other case—the national flag and the red ensign.
[so this is Largs Bay but covers ships exempt in s.13; namely

• Ships less than 24 metres in tonnage length,
• Government ships,
• fishing vessels and
• pleasure craft ...... so not just government ships].

(2) When in waters outside Australian waters:
(a) a ship to which paragraph (1)(a) applies may at any time, and shall as and when required by the regulations, fly the red ensign;
(b) a registered ship, other than a ship to which paragraph (1)(a) applies, may at any time, and shall as and when required by the regulations, fly the national flag or the red ensign; and [registered vessel and note the shall]
(c) a ship to which paragraph 29(1)(b) applies may at any time fly the national flag or the red ensign [largs Bay and note the may]
(2A) An offence based on subsection (2) is an offence of strict liability.
Note: For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.
(3) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), when in Australian waters, a registered ship shall, as and when required by the regulations, fly the national flag or the red ensign.
(3A) An offence based on subsection (3) is an offence of strict liability.
Note: For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.
(4) If:
(a) a ship is required by subsection (3) to fly the national flag or the red ensign at a particular time (in this subsection referred to as the relevant time);
(b) there was in force, immediately before the commencement of this Act, a warrant from Her Majesty or the Admiralty under section 73 of the Imperial Act known as the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, as amended by any other Imperial Act, authorizing the use by the ship of the British Blue Ensign (with or without defacement);
(c) that section is in force at the relevant time as part of the law of the United Kingdom; and
(d) the flying of that Ensign by the ship at the relevant time is authorized by the warrant;
it is sufficient compliance with subsection (3) for the ship to fly that Ensign at the relevant time in lieu of the national flag or the red ensign.
(5) If:
(a) a ship is required by subsection (3) to fly the national flag or the red ensign at a particular time; and
(b) the ship is, at that time:
(i) entitled to fly a particular flag by virtue of an authority under section 6 of the Flags Act 1953; or
(ii) entitled to fly a particular flag of a State or Territory;
it is sufficient compliance with subsection (3) for the ship to fly that particular flag at that time in lieu of the national flag or the red ensign.
(6) A person shall not, in relation to a ship, use, or permit the use, at any one time, of 2 or more of the flags referred to in the preceding provisions of this section.
(7) When an Australian ship is in waters outside Australian waters, a person shall not, in relation to that ship:
(a) except as provided in subsection (2), use, or permit the use of, a flag referred to in, or appointed under, the Flags Act 1953; or
(b) use, or permit the use of, a flag of a State or Territory or a flag to which a warrant referred to in subsection (4) relates.
(8) A person shall not, in relation to a ship required to be registered that is not registered, use, or permit the use of, the national flag or the red ensign.
(8A) An offence based on subsection (6), (7) or (8) is an offence of strict liability.
Note: For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.
(9) Where, in relation to a ship, there is a contravention of, or failure to comply with, a provision of this section, the master and owner of the ship are each guilty of an offence.
(10) Upon application made in the manner prescribed by the owner or operator of a ship to which paragraph 29(1)(b) applies, the Registrar shall grant to the applicant a certificate stating that the ship is entitled to fly the national flag and the red ensign in accordance with this section.
(11) A certificate granted under subsection (10) is, for all purposes, prima facie evidence of the facts stated therein.
(12) In this section:
Australian waters means the territorial sea of Australia and any marine or tidal waters that are on the landward side of any part of that sea.
flag includes an ensign.

Enjoy... but I suspect this subject is now killed by the tedium of the law

 

[gf0012-aust]

Actually it is all prefaced on who owns the ship. For "National colours" carried by a government ship this is covered by the Shipping Registration Act 1981. Under s.13 of the act a government ship is exmept from registration BUT the flag is covered by s.29 and s.30

In this case it may fly the national flag OR the red Ensign. It is not an 'only blue' option.

there you go, i just learnt something new - who says old dogs can't??