Korean Fighter KF-X Development Schedule

[DNAz]

Cant post links so copy paste
`스텔스`형 국산 전투기 2020년 1호기 실전배치
Into google

2011-2012 Is going to be studies and research.
2013-2017 Is going to be Hard research and design /Prototypes
2018 Is when production will start.
2020 Is when the first bird is finished and will start to be deployed from then forwards.

Some stuff that you already know:

Replace F-4 F-5
Better than KF-16 Performance
120 Planed

New Info:

A "Defense Official" says
Better than KF-16 but tech/parts wise some may not be as good as the F-15K (It is expected that we wont get the best components for everything)
But Avionics equipment and precision weapons will be better than the Slam Eagle

Another "Defense Official" says
The fighter will be made to be upgrade able to a real stealth fighter by giving the craft a stealthy shape. So it will be better than other 4.5 fighters.

My thoughts

Other people have thoughy about it and the "upgrade" will be a CFT/CWB swap out
Imagine the F-22 with its side internal weapons bays replaced with fuel tanks and removable. That will be Version 1.
Then version 2 will be a CWB that fits right in so it might as well be a internal weapon bay. That + other tech. Can't see how else to make it full stealth "upgrade able"

What do you guys think.

 

[legoboy]

I don't think it will be ready by 2020. Generally after it's first flight, fifth generation fighter jets takes another 8-10 years before it is ready for production, and that is by American/Chinese/Russian standards.
Russia/India have theirs planned for 2015, but that's PLANNED, and I think that will likely be delayed.

The South Koreans/Indonesians have no where near as much experience in military aviation compared to the previous three countries.

Indonesia has never even built a fighter jet on it's on before, so it's going to be a big ask for them to step up and help produce a fifth generation one.

 

[Twinblade]

Cant post links so copy paste
`스텔스`형 국산 전투기 2020년 1호기 실전배치
Into google

2011-2012 Is going to be studies and research.
2013-2017 Is going to be Hard research and design /Prototypes
2018 Is when production will start.
2020 Is when the first bird is finished and will start to be deployed from then forwards.

What do you guys think.

They can count themselves lucky if they manage to have the first prototype up in the air before 2016. Yes, they have made a LIFT in a very tight schedule, but a 5th gen fighter operational in less than 10 years is highly optimistic thinking.

 

[Ananda]

They can count themselves lucky if they manage to have the first prototype up in the air before 2016. Yes, they have made a LIFT in a very tight schedule, but a 5th gen fighter operational in less than 10 years is highly optimistic thinking.

In the end it will back to which Aerospace company that can bring the technology in the project. I think both KAI and IAe (IPTN) planners very well aware their limitations. They're hoping to get Industry partners that can bring 'on the shelf' technology. Also they seems not plan to have 'fifth gen' fighter. At best they're hoping to get 4.5 gen aircraft.

Remembered that even with KF-X (after 2020), ROKAF still looking for F-35, TNI-AU still talking with Rosoboronexport and also being targeted by the Russian as one of potential customers for T-50 outside Russia and India.

KF-X is aimed to filled the largest portion of Inventory of each ROKAF and TNI-AU after 2020 + but not to filled the most advance part of the Inventory. Both South Korea and Indonesia still hoping to get another partner (Turkey that's being most targeted), to make this project momentum for sustainability. In such anything still can happen to thsi project.

 

[Twinblade]

Start of production at 2018 can also mean limited series production variants of the aircraft being rolled out, but to be able to explore the maximum of flight envelope while the internal subsystems are liable to change in capabilities and/or dimensions within 2 years sounds a little too fast to me.

 

[Ananda]

Start of production at 2018 can also mean limited series production variants of the aircraft being rolled out, but to be able to explore the maximum of flight envelope while the internal subsystems are liable to change in capabilities and/or dimensions within 2 years sounds a little too fast to me.

Well, for me, I can only comment on the development schedule if the final design being approved (which the schedule supposedly in 2012). Only than we can really see if the technology of the KFX are really new or they just integrating existing 'on the shelf' technology, just like what KAI done with T-50. If the amount of technology being integrated and they (KAI plus DI/IAe) have to developed most of them, then I think the program schedule really ambitious.

But I've strong feeling that KAI and DI will try to play safe, and integrating proven technology. After all they don't plan to make KF-X as the most advance fighters in the market, but they try to developed fighters with updated technology in the reasonable price/budget to made them affordable in quantity they plan.

 

[Ananda]

Powerplant for KFX:

From Flightglobal : Seoul eyes powerplant options for KF-X

Seoul is tentatively exploring engine options for its proposed Korea Fighter Experimental (KF-X) programme, with the Eurojet consortium putting forward its EJ200 powerplant.

According to industry sources at the Seoul air show, the South Korean Defense Acquisition Program Administration has issued requests for information to Eurojet for its EJ200 and to General Electric for its F414.

"We are offering the EJ200 as it is for KF-X, and would allow them to manufacture 60% of the engine," said Eurojet vice-president sales Paul Herrmann.

"This would involve 60% technology transfer, and help make them self-sustaining."

He added that it was up to Seoul to decide what 60% of the engine it would produce locally, adding that it seems particularly interested in full authority digital engine control technology.

The EJ200 is the powerplant for the Eurofighter Typhoon (above), a contender in South Korea's F-X III competition for 60 fighters. Herrmann stressed that the EJ200 offer for KF-X is not associated with Eurofighter's F-X III campaign. The F414 powers the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

Though the KF-X is likely to require 50,000lb (220kN) of thrust, Seoul has yet to decide if this will be achieved with two engines of the EJ200 and F414 size, or with a single larger engine such as the Pratt & Whitney F135, which powers the Lockheed Martin F-35.

P&W has not received an RFI in relation to KF-X, but said it would be willing to explore the possibility if approached. P&W is the dominant powerplant supplier for the Republic of Korea Air Force, with its F100 engines powering the 21 Boeing F-15Ks obtained under the F-X II competition, as well as the service's fleet of Lockheed KF-16s.

PW 135 ? Well getting PW 135 for another aircraft besides F-35 in my opinion is having similar chances for any non-US operators having F-22.

KF-X team before stated they also approach Snecma for the powerplant. Seems they feel that twin Snecma engine configurations (as like in Rafale) will not provide sufficient thrust they need.

It's already in several discussions that Eurofighter team already approach KF-X team in offering many Eurofighters technology to KF-X. This also indicated that KF-X team will play safe and try to find as much as advance tech available in the market and integrated on the projects, rather developed them from the scratch.

Afterall what ROK and Indonesia looking with KF-X is the capabilities to developed their owned Fighters manufacturing and got as much as Transfer of Tech, and not try to developed their own advance tech from the scratch.

 

[anan]

Thanks for the info Ananda. Always enjoy your analysis.

Is it okay to ask about KAI T-50 Golden Eagle's on this thread?

I am unsure about the South Korean air-force's procurement roadmap.

They are spending about $10 billion on F-X Phase 3. Likely either F-35, F-15 Silent Eagle, or Sukhoi/HAL FGFA. If the US Air Force buys T-50s as trainers, then it might be an exchange of T-50s for the US Air Force in return for F-35s for the South Korean air force. Such a deal would work wonders for KAI cashflow and R&D development spending.

South Korea plans to spend another more than $10 billion on KF-X fighters which would be manufactured in the 2020s.

Where does this leave the FA-50 development and procurement plans? Will the South Korean Air Force still buy 60 FA-50s as part of a possible total T-50 Golden Eagle family procurement of 142 aircraft? Or will the development and procurement costs of FA-50s be cut to fund the KF-X? [I believe this is what Ananda had said the South Korean air force was considering.] If the US Air Force were to buy hundreds of T 50 Golden Eagle trainers, would KAI use the positive cashflow to develop the FA-50 with its internal capital?

The TA-50 [lightly weaponized version of the T-50] already has some light attack and slight multifunction capability. Israel is considering this model for the dual purpose of training plus 'lite F-16' combat operations during Israel's next conflict. Will KAI bother to upgrade the TA-50 into a multifunction F/A 50?

Be curious if anyone has any thoughts on how likely the T-50 was to win the 24 aircraft Iraqi Air Force trainer competition? Since Iraq has decided to purchase F16s, there are economies of scale if Iraq also buys T-50s, TA-50s, F/A 50s, or KF-X aircraft. My view is that Iraq should buy TA-50s in lieu of T-50s for the same reason the Israelis are considering TA-50s [since Iraq could find itself in a conflict with its neighbors at any time and is in urgent need of air superiority and attack aircraft. Iraq can no longer depend on the US air force shield since the US has returned responsibility for Iraqi air space to the Iraqi Air Force.]

Iraq is also a possible buyer of KF-X aircraft because of the economies of scale in maintenance and operations between F-16s and KF-X aircraft.

To change the topic, what is the status of Turkish participation in KF-X?

 

[Ananda]

Is it okay to ask about KAI T-50 Golden Eagle's on this thread?

I am unsure about the South Korean air-force's procurement roadmap.

Where does this leave the FA-50 development and procurement plans?

It's still on speculation if the F/A-50 (single seat variants) will come to fruition or not. So far that I see seems KAI going to make F/A-50 as LIFT variant of T-50 or as further development of T/A-50.

All I can say now, it will depend of what final decisions on KF-X will be. The program still in the beginning phase, thus what will be the final design it self still on the making.

I think South Korean members can add opinion on this, but with Euro-fighters team now try hard lobbying KF-X team, it's not impossible if KF-X turn out to be something that based on Typhoon, just like Japan F-2 based on F-16.

I speculated this since, for KF-X team with their schedule it's very hard for them if everything come/developed from scratch. In my opinion, if KF-X team decided to team-up with LM then KF-X can come out as highly modified and enlarged original single seat F/A-50. But it can turn out different thing if KF-X design team decided to team-up with Eurofighter.

Turkey still not give final say. But with increasing cooperation between Turkey defence industry with South Korean and also with Indonesian ones, the probability for joining still there.

 

[DNAz]

Google Seoul Air Show KF-X

So there was a display at the Seoul Air Show. And apparently we are going to have a all Korean munitions suite.
So how hard is making A2A missiles vs Cruise and Anti Ship missile we have?
Would we need tech transfer?
Can we get it from the US or more probably from the Russians?

Exciting!

 

[tonyget]

Can somebody tell some models of SK homemade jet.

I mean does SK have any jet manufacturing experience ?

 

[Twinblade]

SEOUL AIR SHOW: KF-X vision unveiled

KAI and government officials presented the revised K-FX layout, dropping the delta canard for a more conventional AMCA/ATD-X like light twin engine layout with only 6 external hard points. Perhaps they are trying to use as much of T-50's fbw system as possible
K-FX new layout

SEOUL AIR SHOW: Sneak-peek of K-FX cockpit

Meanwhile the cockpit layout of K-FX still shows the older delta canard configuration
K-FX cockpit display

... and Eurofighter GmbH presented one of the layouts from their earlier studies on alternate configurations for K-FX
EF's concept on K-FX

Does anybody has any idea on what other reasons might have been there that prompted a switch to conventional layout ?

 

[colay]

I wonder if they would welcome ROC participation? That would be a initial guaranteed order of 60 jets with more to follow.

 

[Ananda]

Does anybody has any idea on what other reasons might have been there that prompted a switch to conventional layout ?

The more futuristic canard design before I believe called KF-X 201 while the more conventional ones is called KF-X 101. Thus this conventional design is not a new one. It's already one of the two design alternative that KF-X team prepared. I believe KAI which lead the team opted to go with the safer more proven design. Considering the time and budget, i believe it's logical move.

I wonder if they would welcome ROC participation? That would be a initial guaranteed order of 60 jets with more to follow.

I don't think South Korea as the main partner and Indonesia as Junior Partner willing to challenge China for the sake of one Fighter project.

 

[Qasim57]

Would there be any objections arrising from Lockheed, over the EJ-2000 engine option?

The reason I'm curious is, that the Vixen-500 AESA radar(which was another nice Euro-origin option) had to be canned, atleast for the time being, due to the US subcontractor's concerns.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Would there be any objections arrising from Lockheed, over the EJ-2000 engine option?

The reason I'm curious is, that the Vixen-500 AESA radar(which was another nice Euro-origin option) had to be canned, atleast for the time being, due to the US subcontractor's concerns.

the US vendor has no say about what can be sold offshore, it's the US State Dept.
the country acquiring the capability exercises its sovereign right throughout their decision making process.

acquisition of a "widget" is the combined decision of the air force and the govt (exercising final carriage of the decision)

US sub contractors views only have influence if the host govt allows it.

 

[swerve]

the US vendor has no say about what can be sold offshore, it's the US State Dept.
the country acquiring the capability exercises its sovereign right throughout their decision making process.

acquisition of a "widget" is the combined decision of the air force and the govt (exercising final carriage of the decision)

US sub contractors views only have influence if the host govt allows it.

IIRC Lockheed Martin has a say in what can be fitted to the T-50 & its derivatives under the terms of its contract with the Korean government, & it vetoed the Vixen 500E.

I've read reports that selection of the EL/M-2032 was a compromise, not the first choice of either the Koreans or LM but acceptable to both.

After that experience, I expect the Koreans will be very wary of letting foreign co-developers impose any similar conditions on KF-X. They seem to have been very naive in negotiations with the USA several times, but are learning. E.g. the minister in charge of telecoms said some years ago that his ministry deeply regretted having forced mobile phone operators to adopt a US standard, on US advice, & in future they'd never seek only US advice on any similar decision.

 

[Ananda]

Nice article on KF-S and KAI sttategy to make the projects feasible:IN FOCUS: South Korea outlines strategy for indigenous fighter

In short South Korean DAPA very understand the challanges they facing. They facing the problem with Engine, Sensors Software, and Radar absorbant materials. That's why they need F-X III to potential Transfer of Technology.

Just wandering if Turkey already agree to become the third partner (thus the second junior partner) as this article claims. It's still debated isssue.

 

[gf0012-aust]

IIRC Lockheed Martin has a say in what can be fitted to the T-50 & its derivatives under the terms of its contract with the Korean government, & it vetoed the Vixen 500E.

they can only offer what State allow them to do. the vendor has no authority to onsell any US developed systems without release.

FLIR as an example worked out how to get around this with some of their business acquisitions last year, but any US gear deliverable under FMS requires States blessing in advance of the "pitch"

interoperable or integration issues might trigger advice (and everyone does that speech), but the vendor cannot dictate anything to the host without the hosts willingess to abandon sovereign rights in decision making. I've seen some countries throw the "pressure" excuse out to protect internal political involvement, but thats rare and requires the successful vendors willingness to stay mum and get dragged into local politics. After LM's disaster with the Czachs a few years back, most vendors know that its a dumb card to try and leverage. LM certainlty learnt their lesson and have stayed out of the fray where poss. (JSF and F-22 being a good example)

 

[swerve]

they can only offer what State allow them to do. the vendor has no authority to onsell any US developed systems withour release.

Of course. Nobody has suggested otherwise. But that doesn't affect the question of clauses in LM's contract with S. Korea allowing it to veto the installation of some types of equipment on the T-50.

We're talking about a contract written some time ago, & if the press reports are true LM didn't get its way completely, since the Koreans refused to accept the radar LM was pushing (presumably with release to sell), & LM had to back off or face the clause being overthrown.

The Vixen 500E is British-developed & marketed as ITAR-free, BTW, & KAI was apparently keen to get it fitted. They put it on their stand at shows, alongside the T-50.