Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[icelord]

A lot of the incompetence is political. I was on a flight a while back with one of the eval team members, they knew what they wanted, but govt was faffing about with whether AIR7000 should pick up the entire role, plus BPC were not entirely acting in a military constrained environment where rules are tougher.

they need to sort out whether they want to be a civil agency or a military agency, and if the latter, then accept the fact that they are bound by different legislative and international obligations.

you can't have your cake and eat it....

Thats pretty much what i was refering to. no ones got the balls to step up, and they continue to refer to Radar and jindalee being our best protection. if thats true BCP and Maritime patrol would not have an air wing attached...

 

[Sea Toby]

Being a retired coastie its been my experience the best life rescue craft is a life boat. While a navy ship need not have one, if there are going to be any civilian evacuations with 80 year old grandmas and grandpas, I prefer a boat... Why settle for something less? Any additional landing craft of whatever type can be hung on additional davits if necessary...

 

[ngatimozart]

Being a retired coastie its been my experience the best life rescue craft is a life boat. While a navy ship need not have one, if there are going to be any civilian evacuations with 80 year old grandmas and grandpas, I prefer a boat... Why settle for something less? Any additional landing craft of whatever type can be hung on additional davits if necessary...

Your thinking as a coastie dealing with civvies for the most part. In a warship different rules and priorities. The Largs bay, sorry HMAS Choules, is first and foremost a warship. Humanitarian missions, whilst important, are a secondary mission. I am not knocking your experience because you blokes are very good seamen. I remember seeing video of your training establishment, on the east coast, and the tidal bore / bar you blokes train in. I had to have another tot of squirt (navy rum) after looking at it Different ships different cap tallies.

 

[alexsa]

Your thinking as a coastie dealing with civvies for the most part. In a warship different rules and priorities. The Largs bay, sorry HMAS Choules, is first and foremost a warship. Humanitarian missions, whilst important, are a secondary mission. I am not knocking your experience because you blokes are very good seamen. I remember seeing video of your training establishment, on the east coast, and the tidal bore / bar you blokes train in. I had to have another tot of squirt (navy rum) after looking at it Different ships different cap tallies.

You sound more than a little patronising. I am both ex navy and merchant navy and understand clearly what the requirements are.

As noted before warships do not need to comply with SOLAS. This does not alter the fact that lifeboats offer the best option for thos not seafarers OR those who are sick or injured. When a ship sinks or is hit in action, there tend to be a few of these ..... have a look at the round table class at Bluff Cove as an example.

As an alternative are MES (a good system not some to the fragile creatchers out there) and davit launch liferafts which allow dry shot evacualtion. After this it is throw over rafts and jump in the water or try to climb down a ladder. with a lot of people on a ship (such as troops) this can be a challenge. The reason such system are used is the PAX vessel are reuired to be capable of evacuating all on baord in 30 minutes. Without boats and/or MES this simply not possible.

http://www.iso.org/iso/safer_ships_lifesaving_and_fire_protection_at_sea.pdf

Even with with helo support and ships in the immediate vicinity abandonment in cold climates is high risk for those not specifically trained has a high potentail for an adverse outcome.... even if they get in the rafts. Being wet and untrained means you are going to struggle. The estonia is a good example

http://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/estonia/images/casew.jpg

Troops in a ship would be as prone to this problem as any other passenger where they have not been specifically trained. So in summary we are not "thinking as civies' but giving some information on why certain escpates systems are used and their advantages. If the navy chooses for operational reason to delete boats theya re cetainly entitled to.

 

[StoresBasher]

In other Choules related news...
Yesterday we formally took possession of Choules from the RFA, in a small ceremony held on the flight deck.
Nuship Choules, is now ADF Ship Choules until the official commissioning in Fremantle.

FOST next week

 

[t68]

In other Choules related news...
Yesterday we formally took possession of Choules from the RFA, in a small ceremony held on the flight deck.
Nuship Choules, is now ADF Ship Choules until the official commissioning in Fremantle.

FOST next week

Have you been told when you will be sailing to FBW yet and when is the official ceremony?

 

[icelord]

In other Choules related news...
Yesterday we formally took possession of Choules from the RFA, in a small ceremony held on the flight deck.
Nuship Choules, is now ADF Ship Choules until the official commissioning in Fremantle.

FOST next week

Fremantle? They in that much of a hurry to get her into service?

Enjoy the FIST from FOST

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Fremantle? They in that much of a hurry to get her into service?

Its the whole Choules name thing. Some media operator in the Government seems to think that naming this ship after a sandgroper is somehow going to result in a 20 point poll turn around for Labor in WA.

 

[icelord]

Its the whole Choules name thing. Some media operator in the Government seems to think that naming this ship after a sandgroper is somehow going to result in a 20 point poll turn around for Labor in WA.

And yet 12,000 sailors think that guy is an idiot...

We've had the naming argument, and my mind is still saying yeah no, you dont name a flagship after someone. Hell our collins fleet is full of heroes of the RAN, and im sorry this guy doesnt match up to what they did...
Pity

 

[Abraham Gubler]

And yet 12,000 sailors think that guy is an idiot...

We've had the naming argument, and my mind is still saying yeah no, you dont name a flagship after someone. Hell our collins fleet is full of heroes of the RAN, and im sorry this guy doesnt match up to what they did...
Pity

The name is stupid. If you wanted to try and flatter WA there is the names 'Westralia', 'Swan' or 'Fremantle'. Naming the ship after a well meaning but non-descript person who's only claim to fame is he was long lived is just crazy. More govt. policy by media spin doctors with no idea.

 

[ngatimozart]

You sound more than a little patronising.

My apologies Alexsa. I did not mean to be patronising. No offence intended.
NM.

 

[alexsa]

You sound more than a little patronising.

My apologies Alexsa. I did not mean to be patronising. No offence intended.
NM.

No harm done

 

[John Newman]

The name is stupid. If you wanted to try and flatter WA there is the names 'Westralia', 'Swan' or 'Fremantle'. Naming the ship after a well meaning but non-descript person who's only claim to fame is he was long lived is just crazy. More govt. policy by media spin doctors with no idea.

Yes, the wrong name, thats for sure.

And yes this is a stupid government with stupid advisers and stupid spin doctors, what will they plan next??

If I was one of those spin doctors, I be saying to Julia:

"Lets rush Choules to Fremantle, get her commissioned, sail her up the coast, park her mid way between Indonesia and Oz, put all the lights on 24/7 with a big "welcome to Australia" sign!!

"So when the next big rush of illegal boats come from Indonesia as they will in droves now that we dont have a policy, we can load them direct on to Choules and them, we can run a helicopter shuttle service to the mainland from that nice big landing deck!!"

Opps, maybe I shouldn't have said that, might give them ideas!


On a more serious note, now that it appears that the Sea Kings are definately heading for retirement in December, is there any word yet on when the navy's new MRH90's will be fit for service on Choules in the event of another natural disaster, etc??

 

[John Newman]

SEA1180 - Aviation capabilities

I know it is still a way out till a final decision is made on the final design and layout of the SEA1180 ships, but it seems to be reasonably clear they will be fitted with a hangar and landing deck to carry/operate a helicopter and/or UAV.

Of the current 4 classes (and 26 hulls to be replaced) by the 20 SEA 1180 ships, only two, Leeuwin and Melville, have aviation capabilities, so it seems to me there will be a signficant increase in helicopter capable ships in the fleet.

My question, (and yes I know its not currently in the DCP), is there a plan, idea, etc, in train somewhere in navy and defence for additional helicopters when these 20 additional helicopter capable ships are in service?

Somewhere towards the end of the 2020's and early 2030's the amount of ships in the fleet with an aviation capability will be more than doubled, in fact there will probably be very few ships that dont have an aviation capability in the fleet.

I assume (yes I know you shouldn't assume) that the 24 MH-60R's and the 6 MRH-90's will be pretty busy supporting the 3 AWD's, 8 Anzacs, 2 LHD's, Choules and the 2 Oilers.

Are Seahawks and MRH90's too large and too complex to be carried, supported and deployed on the SEA 1180 ships?

If the Navy and Government decides to purchase a squadron of helicopters to support this class of ship with their increased capability, would they be a smaller and ligher utility aircraft?

Any thoughts on what aircraft might be suitable? and what about UAV's too?

 

[ADMk2]

I know it is still a way out till a final decision is made on the final design and layout of the SEA1180 ships, but it seems to be reasonably clear they will be fitted with a hangar and landing deck to carry/operate a helicopter and/or UAV.

Of the current 4 classes (and 26 hulls to be replaced) by the 20 SEA 1180 ships, only two, Leeuwin and Melville, have aviation capabilities, so it seems to me there will be a signficant increase in helicopter capable ships in the fleet.

My question, (and yes I know its not currently in the DCP), is there a plan, idea, etc, in train somewhere in navy and defence for additional helicopters when these 20 additional helicopter capable ships are in service?

Somewhere towards the end of the 2020's and early 2030's the amount of ships in the fleet with an aviation capability will be more than doubled, in fact there will probably be very few ships that dont have an aviation capability in the fleet.

I assume (yes I know you shouldn't assume) that the 24 MH-60R's and the 6 MRH-90's will be pretty busy supporting the 3 AWD's, 8 Anzacs, 2 LHD's, Choules and the 2 Oilers.

Are Seahawks and MRH90's too large and too complex to be carried, supported and deployed on the SEA 1180 ships?

If the Navy and Government decides to purchase a squadron of helicopters to support this class of ship with their increased capability, would they be a smaller and ligher utility aircraft?

Any thoughts on what aircraft might be suitable? and what about UAV's too?

There has been some talk about a light utility helicopter of the same type as the future training helicopter to undertake utility roles that Kiowa and Squirrels currently undertake but as you've already mentioned, there isn't anything in DCP or any other planning document that has been publicly released (to the best of my recollection) to indicate if this will actually happen...

 

[icelord]

I know it is still a way out till a final decision is made on the final design and layout of the SEA1180 ships, but it seems to be reasonably clear they will be fitted with a hangar and landing deck to carry/operate a helicopter and/or UAV.

Of the current 4 classes (and 26 hulls to be replaced) by the 20 SEA 1180 ships, only two, Leeuwin and Melville, have aviation capabilities, so it seems to me there will be a signficant increase in helicopter capable ships in the fleet.

My question, (and yes I know its not currently in the DCP), is there a plan, idea, etc, in train somewhere in navy and defence for additional helicopters when these 20 additional helicopter capable ships are in service?

Somewhere towards the end of the 2020's and early 2030's the amount of ships in the fleet with an aviation capability will be more than doubled, in fact there will probably be very few ships that dont have an aviation capability in the fleet.

I assume (yes I know you shouldn't assume) that the 24 MH-60R's and the 6 MRH-90's will be pretty busy supporting the 3 AWD's, 8 Anzacs, 2 LHD's, Choules and the 2 Oilers.

Are Seahawks and MRH90's too large and too complex to be carried, supported and deployed on the SEA 1180 ships?

If the Navy and Government decides to purchase a squadron of helicopters to support this class of ship with their increased capability, would they be a smaller and ligher utility aircraft?

Any thoughts on what aircraft might be suitable? and what about UAV's too?

It will most likely be as it currently is.

There are 12 surface combatants(10 operating) but only 4 have a helo embarked. When a ship sails for MEAO they embark a flight, while 1 returned, 1 preparing for deployment and another frigate heading either SEAD or USA, so they take a flight with them. When we had the LPAs running, they only took a flight when heading overseas or on excercise, and these we mostly Sea king in any case. Success hasnt carried a flight for a while and with what im hearing, wont be going anywhere to require one. And sirius of course can not carry one.

With 24 MH60s these will be spread across the 8ANZACs as 4 with helos, 1 AWD will have a flight unless fleet places a greater emphasis on ASW so maybe 2(its a lot better without a flight as more room onboard and less egos...) and the LHDs will carry maybe one seahawk for S&R as the rest will be MH90, with the majority coming out of Army Air wings.

Theres also the future training helo to be worked out, whether or not we stay with the A109 or something else, and these would be alot better operating off from the minor war vessels as theres less flight team required and will provide a greater range and survellance for patrols up north as well as S&R for the boats and any other emergenices which may arrive.

 

[StoresBasher]

Have you been told when you will be sailing to FBW yet and when is the official ceremony?

We are not going to FBW, Fremantle it is, the date is confirmed, but I am not sure it's in the public record yet.
I believe their will be the official commissioning, and an open day for the public to come onboard.

We also have the hanger on the container deck, it's actually quite solid and bigger than it looks.

 

[ThePuss]

There has been some talk about a light utility helicopter of the same type as the future training helicopter to undertake utility roles that Kiowa and Squirrels currently undertake but as you've already mentioned, there isn't anything in DCP or any other planning document that has been publicly released (to the best of my recollection) to indicate if this will actually happen...

The Kiowas got transferred to the Army years ago and it is rare for a Squirrel to deploy onboard a ship.

We do lease 3 A109 for advanced pilot training and liaison. I don't believe they are cleared for shipborne operation but they do winch on winch off.

We also recently leased 3 Bell 429's as well as the A109's Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence Materiel – Contract for Navy helicopters signed to develop aircrew skills which I suspect are being replaced. This is not mentioned in the media release and the A109's are still listed as an active type on the navy web site but I can imagine the navy would operate two types in the advanced training role

 

[ngatimozart]

It will most likely be as it currently is.

There are 12 surface combatants(10 operating) but only 4 have a helo embarked. When a ship sails for MEAO they embark a flight, while 1 returned, 1 preparing for deployment and another frigate heading either SEAD or USA, so they take a flight with them. When we had the LPAs running, they only took a flight when heading overseas or on excercise, and these we mostly Sea king in any case. Success hasnt carried a flight for a while and with what im hearing, wont be going anywhere to require one. And sirius of course can not carry one.

With 24 MH60s these will be spread across the 8ANZACs as 4 with helos, 1 AWD will have a flight unless fleet places a greater emphasis on ASW so maybe 2(its a lot better without a flight as more room onboard and less egos...) and the LHDs will carry maybe one seahawk for S&R as the rest will be MH90, with the majority coming out of Army Air wings.

Theres also the future training helo to be worked out, whether or not we stay with the A109 or something else, and these would be alot better operating off from the minor war vessels as theres less flight team required and will provide a greater range and survellance for patrols up north as well as S&R for the boats and any other emergenices which may arrive.

I have a few questions regarding the A109s. Have the RAN had the afloat? If so, have they had any issues with salt water corrosion? And would it take much to marinise the A109 if need? Why I ask, is that the RNZAF have acquired them and I wonder if they would be suitable for some tasks where ASW i.e., Seasprite at moment is not needed, say on Canterbury and OPVs.

 

[Volkodav]

There has been some talk about a light utility helicopter of the same type as the future training helicopter to undertake utility roles that Kiowa and Squirrels currently undertake but as you've already mentioned, there isn't anything in DCP or any other planning document that has been publicly released (to the best of my recollection) to indicate if this will actually happen...

Sounds like the perfect job for the Lynx Wildcat.

It would be a laugh if we bought the Lynx for the OCVs (yes I know its highly unlikely). It is a type that has been almost ordered for the RAN FAA three times already, first time for the cancelled DDLs in the 70s, second time for the FFGs during the 80s, then for the ANZACs and cancelled corvettes in the 90s.

It would be a very handy type for the ADF in general not just the OCVs. The Army could make good use of them in a variety of roles and they would be very useful on the LHDs.