StevoJH
The Bunker Group
I thought CB90 was additional to the LCM's, not in replacement of.
This is probably a silly question, but how high is the space forward of the dock? Could you mount the CB90's on trailers and run them down the beach?
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This is probably a silly question, but how high is the space forward of the dock? Could you mount the CB90's on trailers and run them down the beach?
It is conceivable that a number of SEA 1180s could be part of any task force centred on the LHDs. They would be there primarily to provide hydrographic and MCM but CD or other SOF support would not be out of the question. If these ships are in the task force, and they have the facility to stow their water craft in the mission deck providing the ability to carry a variety of craft at any given time, they could be used to each carry a CB-90 or two in addition to their specialised mission craft. The LHD wouldn't need to carry the CB90s as their escorts could do it for them.
As noted by Abe lifeboats are required to comply with commercial requirements. These requirements are contained in chapter III of SOLAS which applies to all commercial ships world wide and are enforced by all signatoty states (which is just about everybody).
For cargo vessels there must be 100 percent capcity each side unless the vessel has a free fall boat. For pasenger vesel the capacity is split between boats and rafts provided a proportion of rafts are serviced by a launching appliance to allow dry shod evactuation. For teh RFA troops wouel be passengers or "special purpose personnel" if the ship is certified under the SPS code.
As the lLargs willbe a warship the RAN can vary this at their discretion as the SOLAS convention does not apply (it is applied on a voluntary basis wiht significant modification).
Same with RNZN. We only carried life rafts. Ideally if you had to abandon you got into one that was only filled to half capacity, because that gave you 6 days water instead of 3. Mind you ,you were not supposed to drink for the first 24 hours. The guy that took us through DC we nicknamed Dr Death because he was fairly morbid. He knew what he was talking about, because he was sunk in the South Atlantic, IIRC on Sheffield. That was according to our Chief GI. Not a lot of room on warships for fancy things like life boats. But a more important point that Abe has not touched on, is that lifeboats can be fuel for fire, and on warships anything inflammable, is usually kept to a minimum, especially on the upper deck. Poms learned the hard way about aluminium upper works in 1982.
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kev 99
Member
That's a popular misconception, the only RN warships that had any sort of significant amounts of aluminimum that took part in the Falklands war were the Type 21s and nothing that happened to them (Ardent or Antelope) could of been prevented by using steel instead, by the way the RN already knew about the issues in 1977 after a fire aboard Amazon, which caused Aluminium laders to distort.
Trackmaster
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The mythology is very strong about aluminium and the Falklands. There were even claims the aluminium alloys used in shipbuilding actually burned. Aluminium does not burn. It weakens and melts. Structural strength is lost around 300c and aluminium melts around 600-650c
The definitive quote was from the Falklands Defence White Paper, published in December 1982. "There is no evidence that aluminium has contributed to the loss of any vessel"
CB90's have been tested hanging off davits, so why not go down that route and leave the dock for LCM's.
Don't the Kiwi's have "Leaving Ship Stations" like everyone else ? So unless half the crew has been blown up there is an equal split of people in every raft and you assemble at your designated station, also an even split between the rafts of different ranks and rates. EG: Every raft (depending on crew numbers etc) will have at least one communicator on it to operate radio, and more importantly read morse code if needed, you cant trust the officers to do that
Another important reason warships have the modern life rafts is that if you have taken a lot of damage and sinking fast, it is not always possible to launch life boats. The life rafts on warships have a release mechanism which if not manually released will release once they have reached a certain depth in the water (set by water pressure) this will allow it to float to the surface, they are also tethered to the ship by a special lanyard so as it accends the lanyard toggles the infaltion of the raft and they pop to the surface, in which case you try and get the one with the most room
The TLC (Tactical Littoral Craft) will replace the LCM8 in 10FSB because the ship to shore cargo role of the LCM8 will have already been replaced by RAN owned and crewed LCM1Es. The coastal cargo capability will also be replaced in the heavy end by the RAN owned JP 2048/5 Independent Watercraft that will replace the LCHs.
The CB90 has for a 20 tonne boat a very high air draft. The hangar decks are only two decks high (~6m) and the CB90 is 3.8m from keel to roof top, then even with a folded mast you will need around half a meter of clearance for the roof top fittings. That only leaves 1.5m for your trailer and squeeze space for the pivot on the edge of the ramp.
It could be possible but would have to be modelled and proven. It would also only need to be done once because the CB90s will stay in the water throughout the deployment. It also makes sense as it allows all of the dock space to be used by longer LCMs (like the British FLC) and also no need to have the TLCs being first out and last in during all the admin movements during loading and before the assault.
Also most potential TLCs including the CB90 do not have flat hulls making for easy grounding on the pumped dry well dock floor. The CB90 for example needs special cradles welded to its side to provide a stable sitting when used in well docks.
The Canberra class LHD does not have additional davit spaces designed for the CB90. The LHD does have space for four 11-13m boats in addition to four LCM8/LCM1E in the well dock.
Yep and you hope it surfaces the right way up. If it doesn't the you need a couple of prop forwardsDon't the Kiwi's have "Leaving Ship Stations" like everyone else ? So unless half the crew has been blown up there is an equal split of people in every raft and you assemble at your designated station, also an even split between the rafts of different ranks and rates. EG: Every raft (depending on crew numbers etc) will have at least one communicator on it to operate radio, and more importantly read morse code if needed, you cant trust the officers to do that
Another important reason warships have the modern life rafts is that if you have taken a lot of damage and sinking fast, it is not always possible to launch life boats. The life rafts on warships have a release mechanism which if not manually released will release once they have reached a certain depth in the water (set by water pressure) this will allow it to float to the surface, they are also tethered to the ship by a special lanyard so as it accends the lanyard toggles the infaltion of the raft and they pop to the surface, in which case you try and get the one with the most room
I was on the old IPCs. We had 18 crew with 2 life rafts, one port one starboard. IIRC one was a 20 man and the other a 25 man. We had the extras because higher ups figured that we would occasionally be carrying army around and so extra room in rafts. The old IPCs were mongrels, rolled on wet grass, 12 knots flat out and that was down hill with a tail wind Mind you we did get the old Kiwi up to 19 knots (according to the log) one night surfing big north east swells down the east coast of the upper South Island.The "FHOT's" or F'ing Hideous Orange Things (Davit launched life boats) are a great idea for Civy Merchies but they do not belong on a naval vessel due to their huge size and lack of redundancy.
A 25 man life raft is much less likely to be damaged than a whopping big life boat by enemy damage, plus there is so many more of them.
I also remember a rather serious incident around 6 or 7 years ago that left several Kiwi pussers seriously F'ed up after one of their "FHOT" fell of it's davit along side GI during a LSS practice. A couple of kiwis were only saved after passing Aussie Pussies jumped in the piss to rescue them.
Me I like the idea of jumping off my sinking ship and waiting for the lift rafts to float up rather than them getting in FHOT and trying to launch the thing whilst my ship rapidly sinking and the "Baddies" are shooting at me.
A 25 man life raft is much less likely to be damaged than a whopping big life boat by enemy damage, plus there is so many more of them.
I also remember a rather serious incident around 6 or 7 years ago that left several Kiwi pussers seriously F'ed up after one of their "FHOT" fell of it's davit along side GI during a LSS practice. A couple of kiwis were only saved after passing Aussie Pussies jumped in the piss to rescue them.
Me I like the idea of jumping off my sinking ship and waiting for the lift rafts to float up rather than them getting in FHOT and trying to launch the thing whilst my ship rapidly sinking and the "Baddies" are shooting at me.
kev 99
Member
It's astonishing that it keeps popping up, I would of thought that everyone with an interest in defence matters would know it was rubbish by now.
It's the myth that won't go away.
The davit must be suit the boat. If the falls are not aligned with the lift point of the boat and/or the davit does not fit or cannot lif the boat this is all semantics.
It is not that simple and different boat may involve substancial modification.
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
So it is an additional capability rather then a replacement capability since the craft it is "replacing" has already been replaced in its primary role?
Whether or not there is room probably depends on how much ground clearance (and end clearance to the roof at an angle) is required in order to pass the top of the dock, though with a short "dolly" style trailer that doesnt run the full length of the boat I assume it could be doable?
Useful.
Has anything like the Protector USV's been considered?
Ship to shore is not the primary role of the LCM8s. The TLC is replacing or more accurately evolving the LCM8’s mission. The coastal bulk logistics role is redundant (primary mission) so it can focus more on the tactical and brown water logistics.
It’s a completely different role and capability.
Anixtu
New Member
Passengers. Bay class have Passenger Ship Safety Certificates and operate as either Class I or Class II passenger ships depending on the number of troops embarked. For Class II operations the passengers (and potentially crew) evacuate using the 2 x 307 man, 3-raft MES.
RAN could remove the lifeboats, just use the MES/liferafts, and still have sufficient survival craft capacity for all onboard.
Seriously with a lot of people on board who are not trained in survival a chute feed MES is a very good option. Look a the Estonia, untrained individuals got in the rafts and died overnight due to exposure as they did not know how to right th raft.
A couple of other misconceptions......
Not all davit launch are hugh. If you fit a bohemoth that is a gear selection issue. In many cases 25 man units are commonly used with a number under one davit. It allows the evacuation of the old, the sick, the very young or the injured without resorting to nets or ladders or jumping over the side.
Fnally boats do not burn that readilly. They are required to be fire resistant in there structral material.......... particularly on tankers and gas carriers.
Aluminium fails tructurallly sooner that steel (by quate a margin). this,and the dificulty in insulating the material to either A-30 or A-60 (resistance to heat transfer) is a problem. If this cannot be achived then fire spread is more rapid due to heat transfer as opposed to the matrial burning. Only powdered aluminium burns and only where it is aerated (not compacted).
http://www.alfed.org.uk/downloads/documents/U8SV52R0HI_Fire.pdf
They can do what thye like as they are not subject to SOLAS. Removal of the lifeboat cpacity without some replacement capacity of some type means you wouel not meet the civilian redundancy requirements (which is quite low on a pax vessel).
I hatte to hark on this point but boats are very useful in removing those untrained or sick or injured. MES are a good second option followed by davit lauch rafts.
If you are on a tanker and it is burning boats are likley to be you ONLY option........ if you have them. Such boats are fire protected with spinklers. Enclosed boats perform better in fire situations than rafts for obvious reasons but flame spread on water is not a percieved threat on anything but a tanks ship of gas carrier. An accomodation fire is a differnet issue.
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We can not even get our hands on UAV for border protection up north, i highly doubt USV would even be a thought. The techs there, but the project keeps getting shelved due to incompetance in certain areas
A lot of the incompetence is political. I was on a flight a while back with one of the eval team members, they knew what they wanted, but govt was faffing about with whether AIR7000 should pick up the entire role, plus BPC were not entirely acting in a military constrained environment where rules are tougher.
they need to sort out whether they want to be a civil agency or a military agency, and if the latter, then accept the fact that they are bound by different legislative and international obligations.
you can't have your cake and eat it....
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