US Navy News and updates

[StobieWan]

Didnt know that... then this glorified OPV is going to cost almost the same as an F-100 frigate!!! Thanks for the info

It's not -- the base ship is about $350 - 400 million and the modules are about $150-200 a shot. I posted a link to the DID free to read article earlier.

It's still too expensive and you could quite easily get a FREMM or Type 26 for the same amount but LCS is not $700 million for a bare ship.

 

[colay]

The LCS is an interesting approach to the different challenges facing the Navy. They have to address the growing prominence of littoral operations while trying to reverse the shrinking fleet syndrome with finite resources. A lot of thought has gone into the concept of a platform that can change its personality by simply swapping out Mission Modules depending on the task at hand.. a pretty radical concept that those who are rooted in the old paradigm naturally resist. The success or failure of the LCS program will depend on the success the Navy will have in implementing its overall operating strategy for the future. The LCS is just one cog in the gizmo.

 

[swerve]

Mission modules aren't radical to anyone who's noticed what the Danes have been doing for the last couple of decades. Stanflex has been in service since the 1980s.

 

[colay]

Mission modules aren't radical to anyone who's noticed what the Danes have been doing for the last couple of decades. Stanflex has been in service since the 1980s.

Yup, that's what helped sway USN's decision.. radical for the USN though.

 

[Belesari]

U.S. GAO - Littoral Combat Ship: Actions Needed to Improve Operating Cost Estimates and Mitigate Risks in Implementing New Concepts

Last i heard after everything is truely counted the cost would be between 600-700 mil per vessel.

Cost Estimates Rise for First LCS Ships - Defense News

"The estimated cost of the first of the U.S. Navy's Littoral Combat Ships (LCS) rose a modest $6 million over the past year, but the price tag to complete the second LCS jumped $68 million, putting the ship over the $700 million mark, Pentagon budget documents show."

Yes the price will drop as it gets built in greater numbers and is evened out. But half or more?

Me personaly i would love to see the Navy go for the Absolon. Try to get a contract to build it in American ship yards. The vessel seems to be everything the LCS is supposed to be.

The only thing it doesnt support is 50kt burst speed. Which to my knowledge neither vessel made. And even if they say they did i would like to know what kind of a load as far as fuel, weapons, stores etc was onboard.

It's not -- the base ship is about $350 - 400 million and the modules are about $150-200 a shot. I posted a link to the DID free to read article earlier.

It's still too expensive and you could quite easily get a FREMM or Type 26 for the same amount but LCS is not $700 million for a bare ship.

 

[Belesari]

My problem isnt in the technologies but the ways those technologies have been expected to work flawlessly. The over all vessel itself is the problem. Not the idea.

We need a cheap workhorse frigate. NOT a admirals toy.

Mission modules aren't radical to anyone who's noticed what the Danes have been doing for the last couple of decades. Stanflex has been in service since the 1980s.

 

[colay]

LCS1 and LCS2 were prototypes intended to explore the envelope in terms of their manufacture and basic capabilities. The lessons learned have been applied to the official prices in the contracts for the succeeding units that I linked previously.

-edit-


http://ww2.swonet.navy.mil/swonetweb2.0/live/SNAWC2011.aspx

I came across the following series of videos and of relevance to this threadis the presentation by RADM Frank Pandolfe on the Surface Force Combatant Update. It provides an update on a number of programs including LCS, DDG51, DDG 1000, etc.
Its dated June of this year so it better reflects where the respective status of the various programs.

 

[fretburner]

Some DDG1000-related news: U.S. Navy tests long-range projectile

So a magazine is supposed to hold 600 of these projectiles? Is that 600 per gun? Or combined for those 2 AGS in the Zumwalts? I think it's the latter. 1200 rounds seems to be a lot for a 155mm projectile.

Impressive if it does get into the 90-100 nautical miles range

 

[Belesari]

I believe for the Advanced long range rounds is less something like 150 per gun but the standard rounds it around 300 automated per gun. With another 300 in secondary magazine. I Have heard there are some issues with at sea replenishment and such.

OK here we go. Just from wikipedia but its generally a good site as long as its not a political subject.

"2 × 155 mm Advanced Gun System
920 × 155 mm rounds total; 600 in automated store + Auxiliary store room with up to 320 rounds (non-automatic) as of April 2005
70–100 LRLAP rounds planned as of 2005 of total"

Iook for other sources but for now here ya go.

So yea not that many LR rounds.

Some DDG1000-related news: U.S. Navy tests long-range projectile

So a magazine is supposed to hold 600 of these projectiles? Is that 600 per gun? Or combined for those 2 AGS in the Zumwalts? I think it's the latter. 1200 rounds seems to be a lot for a 155mm projectile.

Impressive if it does get into the 90-100 nautical miles range

 

[colay]

Those LRAP rounds are apparently GPS-guided and will hit within meters of their target. That should be plenty for most situations.

 

[fretburner]

I believe for the Advanced long range rounds is less something like 150 per gun but the standard rounds it around 300 automated per gun. With another 300 in secondary magazine. I Have heard there are some issues with at sea replenishment and such.

OK here we go. Just from wikipedia but its generally a good site as long as its not a political subject.

"2 × 155 mm Advanced Gun System
920 × 155 mm rounds total; 600 in automated store + Auxiliary store room with up to 320 rounds (non-automatic) as of April 2005
70–100 LRLAP rounds planned as of 2005 of total"

Iook for other sources but for now here ya go.

So yea not that many LR rounds.

Been googling a bit and found this very interesting study: AGS - DD988 Conversion

If you go to page 5, it says 600 rounds per magazine of the "regular" 155mm rounds, but no mention on how many LRAP rounds.

Fast forward to page 16 and it says 320 LRAP rounds.

I presume this is 320 LRAP or 600 "regular" 155mm rounds?

It's interesting because these study was done on a Spruance-class destroyer... a ship which was NOT designed with the AGS in mind. I guess for the Zumwalt which is designed for the AGS, then it should be able to carry no less than 320 LRAP rounds per gun? So if you have 2 AGS in each Zumwalt, you could probably have 1 gun will all LRAP and 1 gun with all regular rounds or a combination of either 1200 all "regular" rounds or 640 LRAP rounds.

That's a LOT of projectiles.

It's also very interesting that the Navy is working hard on getting as much commonality with the AGS rounds -- both "regular" and LRAP -- with the US Army 155mm rounds.

Pretty exciting stuff!

Now only if the USN can make this a reality

 

[fretburner]

New Destroyer Zumwalt Shaping Up

"...The 180-foot long, 60-foot high hull section of the Zumwalt (DDG 1000) contains both of the ship's 155mm advanced gun systems and weighs more than 4,000 tons - bigger than a guided-missile frigate. The mid-forebody section itself is made up of several smaller sections... "

I hope this Zumwalts -- or some variant of it -- will progress to becoming MORE than technology demonstrators. AGS sounds badass!

 

[Belesari]

New Destroyer Zumwalt Shaping Up

"...The 180-foot long, 60-foot high hull section of the Zumwalt (DDG 1000) contains both of the ship's 155mm advanced gun systems and weighs more than 4,000 tons - bigger than a guided-missile frigate. The mid-forebody section itself is made up of several smaller sections... "

I hope this Zumwalts -- or some variant of it -- will progress to becoming MORE than technology demonstrators. AGS sounds badass!

Don't think any more of the Zumwalts will be built just those 3. The Navy is focusing destroyers on BMD. The DDG-1000 was to replace the Burkes BUT the Zumwalts are more for Surface warfare. The New flight III burkes are ment to replace the Tico's and so are going to be air defense ships with BMD capabilities. Hopefully the Navy will look at making the flight III hull flexable enough to accomadate a second type ment for surface warfare. Anything will carry some of the technologies of the zumwalt forward.

 

[Belesari]

Been googling a bit and found this very interesting study: AGS - DD988 Conversion

If you go to page 5, it says 600 rounds per magazine of the "regular" 155mm rounds, but no mention on how many LRAP rounds.

Fast forward to page 16 and it says 320 LRAP rounds.

I presume this is 320 LRAP or 600 "regular" 155mm rounds?

It's interesting because these study was done on a Spruance-class destroyer... a ship which was NOT designed with the AGS in mind. I guess for the Zumwalt which is designed for the AGS, then it should be able to carry no less than 320 LRAP rounds per gun? So if you have 2 AGS in each Zumwalt, you could probably have 1 gun will all LRAP and 1 gun with all regular rounds or a combination of either 1200 all "regular" rounds or 640 LRAP rounds.

That's a LOT of projectiles.

It's also very interesting that the Navy is working hard on getting as much commonality with the AGS rounds -- both "regular" and LRAP -- with the US Army 155mm rounds.

Pretty exciting stuff!

Now only if the USN can make this a reality

The spruance were great ships. The Navy made a bad decission when it scrapped or sunk them all. From what i've heard the spruance was built with the idea od haveing the MK-71 8in naval gun this was later changed to the 5in.

So it should be good for it.

Would rather see the 8in anyways. Higher rate of fire, bigger warhead, could be made guided if the smaller 6.5 is.

 

[SteelTiger 177]

Given a choice.

If I had to choose between buying additional Zumwalt-class DDGs or more LCSs I would preferr more Zumwalts given the fact that China,Iran and a few other "Nasties" out there are building up their blue water capabilities and the LCS program has been problematic and gone way over budget.My hope is that more Zumwalts will be built after Obama is gone the Burkes have done well but it's time for somthing better.

 

[Kalasag]

Don't think any more of the Zumwalts will be built just those 3. The Navy is focusing destroyers on BMD. The DDG-1000 was to replace the Burkes BUT the Zumwalts are more for Surface warfare. The New flight III burkes are ment to replace the Tico's and so are going to be air defense ships with BMD capabilities. Hopefully the Navy will look at making the flight III hull flexable enough to accomadate a second type ment for surface warfare. Anything will carry some of the technologies of the zumwalt forward.

Just to add to the discussion, just how effective would the 2x AGSs on the Zumwalt be for Naval Gunfire Support operations? No doubt it has a relatively high rate of firing and is meant for precision targeting, but what about other capabilities like wide area suppression gunfire? How would (or wouldn't) 3 Zumwalts replace the capabilities of the Iowa-class battleships given its arsenal of weapons?

 

[Belesari]

Just to add to the discussion, just how effective would the 2x AGSs on the Zumwalt be for Naval Gunfire Support operations? No doubt it has a relatively high rate of firing and is meant for precision targeting, but what about other capabilities like wide area suppression gunfire? How would (or wouldn't) 3 Zumwalts replace the capabilities of the Iowa-class battleships given its arsenal of weapons?

Ok first off AGS looks pretty good. But the main reasons they are going to the 6.1 inch gun is it actucally is a 155mm which is the standard for the army and marines. This means rounds would be cheaper and comonality between services means sharing the cost for certain things like new technologies etc. Add to that the range and it beats out any current 5in flat.

While it will be fine for Giving fire support its not ment really to provide saturation for long. Not atleast to the degree a BS could.

The problem with the Battleships was the price. It took thousands of men to man them and rivers of money. Now while i'm sure modern technology could make the manning go way down (around half of that crew was needed to man the AA guns) the ships would still be expensive.

Nothing can replace the Iowa's as far as firepower or survivability. However even with the ability to obliterate everything in a football field sized area per shot selling the navy on a complete refit is a tall order.

As with most things now its simply Cost and how it effects some plans. I would rather see them all recommissoned and upgraded and refit. Pretty sure with todays technology you could get the guns to fling a round out to atleast 80 if not 100 mi. However that would take RAP rounds like on the AGS and a new round probably brought to a 8in.

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However i think something like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAP_Almirante_Grau_(CLM-81)

Would work well. She really isn't that much bigger than the Zumwalts. Actucally Displaces alot less at 12,000t full.

Always wondered if the AGS could be mounted in a twin turret. Could always use the MK-71 i guess........hmmm.

 

[Belesari]

If I had to choose between buying additional Zumwalt-class DDGs or more LCSs I would preferr more Zumwalts given the fact that China,Iran and a few other "Nasties" out there are building up their blue water capabilities and the LCS program has been problematic and gone way over budget.My hope is that more Zumwalts will be built after Obama is gone the Burkes have done well but it's time for somthing better.

The problem with the Zumwalts has been said above. The Flight III burkes will be burkes in name and form only really. Basicly ALot of new tech just built along the same design.

 

[Sea Toby]

What about the new Coast Guard ships?

I just noticed on the ship list for Bath Iron Works that there is a Burke Class Destroyer called the John S McCain, so if the old boy is elected will he be the first serving President with a ship in active service named after him?

That ship is named after his admiral daddy, a Vietnam era commander of all naval forces in the Pacific...

 

[AegisFC]

That ship is named after his admiral daddy, a Vietnam era commander of all naval forces in the Pacific...

Actually it is named after both his father and grandfather who were both WW2 commanders. There are a ffew DDG-51's named after multiple people such as The Sullivan's.