Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

swerve

Super Moderator
If I was in charge of the Malaysian military & expected a war with Singapore I'd invest in a significant number of the cheapest reasonably accurate (for what they are) artillery rockets with the range to hit Singapore'r airfields from my territory, & splatter every runway in Singapore long enough for a G550, plus all associated hard standings & hangars, as soon as hostilities began. Rinse & repeat.

Oh, & I'd turn the water off.

Singapore is extremely difficult to defend from anyone who holds Johore.

I'd forgotten about the Malaysian lack of any except low-altitude SAMs, though.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If I was in charge of the Malaysian military & expected a war with Singapore I'd invest in a significant number of the cheapest reasonably accurate (for what they are) artillery rockets with the range to hit Singapore'r airfields from my territory, & splatter every runway in Singapore long enough for a G550, plus all associated hard standings & hangars, as soon as hostilities began. Rinse & repeat.

Oh, & I'd turn the water off.

Singapore is extremely difficult to defend from anyone who holds Johore.

I'd forgotten about the Malaysian lack of any except low-altitude SAMs, though.
Thats exactly why the Malaysians bought themselves a brace of tactical battlefield rockets :)

Its also why the Sings invested in their desal plants to ease their dependancy on the Malaysians....
 

south

Well-Known Member
Certainly sounds easier than trying to take on an 80 fighter, Aim120, AEW, networked airforce with I-Hawk sams and 4 airfields to launch from..
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I'd forgotten about the Malaysian lack of any except low-altitude SAMs, though.
Malaysia has low altitude short range SAMs - the Starburst [operated by 3 services], Igla, FH-6, Anza and Jernas - but no medium range or long range SAMs. Early warning and target quieing is provided by Giraffe and TRS-3D radars, as well as 2 VERAs passive systems that are used to keep track of UAVs and aircraft.

Thats exactly why the Malaysians bought themselves a brace of tactical battlefield rockets :)
Given that ARTHUR CBRs are also operated by the ASTROS regiments, IMO the main role of the ASTROS would be in counter battery work, by sheer saturation. Living firings have also been done in the Melaka Straits suggesting that the ASTROS, though it does not have a precision guided capability like Singapore's HIMARS [Avibras is currently working on a GPS guided round for the ASTROS], can also be used for limited anti-maritime work if paired with a surface search radar.

Though the are very vulnerable to SEAD or DEAD missions it is often forgotten or not realised that military and civil aviation radars in the south provide Malaysia with full coverage over the whole of Singapore, all the way south to Indonesia's Riau islands. Malaysia's main security concerns at the moment however are over the Spratleys and with Indonesia over the Ambalat oil block, not Singapore.

Aren't we going off topic ? :p:
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Aren't we going off topic ? :p:
we are miles off topic :)

I have to say that its refreshing to engage in a theoretical where the opposing nationalities involved in the debate have not turned into rabid internet troglodytes
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If I was in charge of the Malaysian military & expected a war with Singapore I'd invest in a significant number of the cheapest reasonably accurate (for what they are) artillery rockets with the range to hit Singapore'r airfields from my territory, & splatter every runway in Singapore long enough for a G550, plus all associated hard standings & hangars, as soon as hostilities began. Rinse & repeat.

Oh, & I'd turn the water off.

Singapore is extremely difficult to defend from anyone who holds Johore.
If I were Singapore I'd probably invest in Iron Dome and something like Jumper attack missiles if I were threatened with rocket attack.

Oh wait, so would they...

;)
 

Kalasag

New Member
This platform centric discussion that is less than useful. It is also very un-informed discussion at 3 levels:

one, at a plaform level disussion (you've got to understand the weapons and radar of RAAF's Super Hornet before dismissing the way you have done without due consideration to their logistics, force structure and so on);

two, at a capabilities level discussion (the RAAF is a full spectrum, tertiary air force with unique capabilities that will not be replicated in ASEAN countries - take a look at this old thread on Ex Pitch Black); and

three, from a geo-political and realpolitik level (Australia is a true middle power with extensive economic and defence relations with different countries in ASEAN and this relationship is valued by many of Australia's partners).​

You need to read more before posting here otherwise you will not last long in this forum. You have been laughed at by two defence professionals, told by two to three senior members of the forum that your post is factually deficient and told as much by three Mods.

Australia is an external security partner with many ASEAN countries and in some cases they as a middle power, play a crucial facilitative role. And if you don't track the regional relationships, then you are too far away in basics in knowledge for me to be willing to go into greater detail (that you probably can't understand anyway).

Out of kindness, I have given you three broad headings/topics to read, please read up before posting further factually deficient gems in future.
I believe it to be true that the airframe of the SH is inadequate in a visual range engagement against SEA airframes, yet it makes up for it with BVR capability. I also acknowledge that the RAAF is beyond just the raw abilities of its planes. Like I said, SHs currently have excellent radar and I add are quite stealthy to a degree. And I also know that Australia has operated F-18s in the past, and therefore, the existing infrastructure would make it cheaper to operate. And I acknowledge that the RAAF is a world-class force with a structure most ASEAN countries, especially Indonesia (as a potential source of conflict), would take time to match.

What I see:
1) SH cannot replicate what F-111s can do as long range bombers.
2) SH is an overpriced plane with exaggerated abilities.
3) Australia had a good industry centered around the F-111, so even with the expenses, money was going back to the Australian people.
4) Australia is technically proficient to keep F-111s up until they get the F-35s.

And in no way did I imply Australia going to war with any ASEAN member. I was only comparing platforms with other states surrounding it. Platform abilities may not matter much at the strategic level, but at the tactical level it does. SHs will have a hard time in VR combat.

Anyways apologies with my past post. Didn't take time to read the 100+ pages before my post thus the result.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
What I see:
1) SH cannot replicate what F-111s can do as long range bombers.
2) SH is an overpriced plane with exaggerated abilities.
3) Australia had a good industry centered around the F-111, so even with the expenses, money was going back to the Australian people.
4) Australia is technically proficient to keep F-111s up until they get the F-35s.
Okay, here come some answers...

1) Wrong
2) Wrong
3) Wrong (see #1)
4) Wrong (see #1 again)

Now to expand on this, and really have it understood, one needs to understand that package delivered is both conducted and opposed at a system level, not a platform level. Unfortunately, the continued interest in the F-111 is only looking at some raw performance specs of the platform, and not where or how it performs as part of the overall system.

Now, here are some brief specs for the F-111, and then their irrelevance will be demonstrated.

Crew: 2 (pilot and weapons system operator)
Maximum speed: Mach 2.5 (1,650 mph, 2,655 km/h) at altitude
Combat radius: 1,330 mi (1,160 nmi, 2,140 km)
Capacity of 31,500 lb (14,300 kg) to carry combinations of bombs and stores

These are the metrics most platform fanbois tend to focus on, without any examination or understanding of the relevance.

Now, a high max speed of Mach 2.5 is good, but most modern air to air and even many air to surface missiles have speeds of Mach 3+. Which means that the F-111 needs to be able to evade detection, either by not being picked up by hostile sensors, and/or being able to deploy ordnance from outside a hosile's engagement range.

A combat radius of 2,000+ km is a good, long-legged aircraft. However, in order for that capability to be useful, there has to be (1) potential targets within that range, and (2) the aircraft needs to be capable of penetrating the airspace to get close enough to engage the target(s). Which puts one back to the point above about hostile SAMs and air to air missiles.

Now the third point, 31,000 lbs of ordnance is a great deal of ordnance. More than current roughly fighter-sized aircraft can deploy. However, the F-111 at the time of retirement was only able to employ 'dumb' and laser-guided gravity bombs as well Harpoon Block I AShM's IIRC and CBU's. Which means to carry out non-maritime, strike missions the F-111 would need to be able to get close enough to be essentially 'over' the target. Which in turn points back to the two previous points.

As things stand now, the F-111 which was designed about 50 years ago to penetrate enemy air defences with a high speed, low altitude, terrain following flight profile. Such a profile is now no longer sufficient to safely and reliably penetrate current air defences. Through to development of IADS, and the associated sensor networks, a low altitude flight path is not going to guarantee radar avoidance. More radar systems exist now to provide better coverage, and there has been a marked growth in the employment of airborne radar surveillance. Further, GBAD systems are much more advanced than they were in the early 1960's, and with the development of MANPADS which could result in multiple Mach 3+ missiles being sent inbound on an F-111, a terrain following flight profile is no longer a safe option.

This means that to conduct a strike mission, an F-111 would need to fly at altitude (~20,000+ ft) to avoid ground/trashfire. This puts the F-111 well within the normal detection and interception area of hostile fighters. Given that the F-111 was designed as a strike aircraft, not a fighter, the best it can mount vs. aircraft IIRC was a pair of AIM-9M Sidewinders and a 30 mm cannon. All of these are only useful WVR, and the F-111 needs to be nose-on to the target aircraft. Given that modern fighter aircraft have BVR missiles and nose-mounted FCR, the F-111 would not be in a position to defend itself against hostile fighters, thus requiring a fighter escort to penetrate hostile or contested airspace, and limited the F-111 engagement range to the combat range of the fighter escort.

Further, the ~31,000 lbs of ordnance as mentioned is basically stuck to being at best, LGBs. The newer and more advanced PGMs and stand-off munitions are not available for the F-111, as the avionics and wiring harness is too old to be compatible. While it is technically possible to develope a modern avionics package (including self-defence systems) for the F-111, such an endeavour would be risky, costly, and time consuming. Once such a package was developed (if it could be done successfully...) in order to install it in all the F-111's in RAAF service would essentially entail dismantling the F-111's to remove the old avionics and wiring, installing the new equipment, and then reassembling the aircraft. Again, all risky, costly, and time consuming. One also must remember, all this work would be done on an aircraft of which the RAAF has been the sole operator of since the F-111 was retired from USAF service in ~1998, and which had been out of production since ~1976, when the F-111F, the last production model, ceased manufacture. In other words, parts are scarce and if available are decades old. Otherwise parts need to be custom ordered for new production, and tooling does not exist to make the needed parts. Not to mention that the materials and metallurgy usable now is not necessarily the same as what was used in the F-111 when first produced.

So, do you really think it worthwhile for Australia to run a crash upgrade programme to extend the lifespan of a nearly 50 year-old bomb truck, which likely would not result in operational returns from the F-111 until the F-35 was itself already entering service, and would cost a great deal of money and trigger further stretching of the legacy Hornet fleet?

OTOH the F/A-18F SHornets which the RAAF will be receiving are advanced fighter/attack aircraft. They are capable of self-escort, able to engage and defend themselves against hostile aircraft. Due to the advances made in their avionics, they can provide better information on the battlespace than the legacy Hornets are capable of, and due to the level of sensor integration, gives the RAAF an idea of what is coming with the F-35, which means that there are paths to explore what the RAAF will be able to due to the F-35's avionics. Due to the greater range of the SHornets vs. legacy Hornets, plus the SHornet's ability to use standoff PGM's, the RAAF is regaining some of the strike 'reach' it used to have with the F-111, which was lost when the F-111 stopped being survivable in a modern battlespace without the legacy Hornets acting as escorts.

So, this is not just about Australia's ability to maintain the F-111, though the risk, cost and time involved did become the final nails in the coffin of the F-111, it was just the fact that the F-111 could no longer realistically escape detection or evade hostile aircraft in a modern battlespace.

-Cheers
 
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Milne Bay

Active Member
I believe it to be true that the airframe of the SH is inadequate in a visual range engagement against SEA airframes, yet it makes up for it with BVR capability. I also acknowledge that the RAAF is beyond just the raw abilities of its planes. Like I said, SHs currently have excellent radar and I add are quite stealthy to a degree. And I also know that Australia has operated F-18s in the past, and therefore, the existing infrastructure would make it cheaper to operate. And I acknowledge that the RAAF is a world-class force with a structure most ASEAN countries, especially Indonesia (as a potential source of conflict), would take time to match.

What I see:
1) SH cannot replicate what F-111s can do as long range bombers.
2) SH is an overpriced plane with exaggerated abilities.
3) Australia had a good industry centered around the F-111, so even with the expenses, money was going back to the Australian people.
4) Australia is technically proficient to keep F-111s up until they get the F-35s.
Last F-111 to Point Cook

Item by australianaviation.com.au at 5:05 pm, Friday May 27 2011

(Peter Giafis - ABC News)

The RAAF’s last F-111 made its final journey from Amberley to Point Cook this week, marking an official end to the long-serving fighter’s 37-year presence in Queensland’s south-east.

F-111 A8-125 was dismantled and loaded onto a semi-trailer at RAAF Amberley on May 23, and left the base in the early hours of May 24 to begin a three day road trip to Victoria’s RAAF Point Cook Museum. Now safely at its fomal resting place, the aircraft will be reassembled by personnel of 82 wing, where it will be put on permanent display. Once reassembled, A8-125 will join F-111G A8-272 The Boneyard Wrangler on display at Point Cook’s new strike hanger.

One of eight F-111s to be preserved by the ADF, A8-125 holds a special place in the history of the Australia’s F-111 fleet, having been the first ‘C’ variant produced for the RAAF and also the first to touch down in Australia on June 1, 1973. Fittingly, A8-125 was also the last F-111 to land following the type’s farewell flight, touching down at RAAF Amberley on December 3 last year.

Last F-111 to Point Cook | Australian Aviation Magazine
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Todd has deftly dealt with the 'pig' issue. I just have one point of contention.

I believe it to be true that the airframe of the SH is inadequate in a visual range engagement against SEA airframes, yet it makes up for it with BVR capability......

SHs will have a hard time in VR combat.
A few questions regarding this.

How exactly is the F/A-18F at a disadvantage regionally post merge? What 'airframes' in the region are superior? Why do you consider the airframe to be the determining factor in the post merge environment?

Before you answer those consider this. How is an aircraft with easy low speed handling characteristics and excellent high alpha performance (thanks to its wing and LERX design) equipped with the AIM-9X - with its TVC and FPA seeker - and two JHMCS (on the pilot and WSO) a poor WVR performer? What regional air-forces can field something as well equipped for a knife fight?

Indonesia? The only contenders there are the AIM-9L equipped F-16's and the Su-27SKM/Su-30MK2. Lack of a HOBS heater rules the vipers out. So what about the Flankers? R-73 is has a analogue seeker and is generally inferior to the AIM-9X in seeker, missile and HOBS performance. JHMCS is also superior to the Flankers HMS. So that only leaves the aircraft itself. The Su-30MK2 has a better power to weight ratio which is an advantage, it may also have a better sustained turn rate at higher speeds. However at low speeds the SH is superior. So we have a better sensor/missile combo on the F/A-18F and a split game on airframe performance. Obviously all of the above assumes Indonesia can actually field and arm its Flankers.

Singapore? Again they have F-16's which are very capable WVR performers and are equipped with the Python-4 (not sure where the AIM-9X's are used). Python-4 is a HOBS missile but again lacks a digital, FPA seeker. RSAF AIM-9X is obviously the same as the RAAF's AIM-9X. The viper has a better sustained (& instantaneous I believe) turn rate at speed but cant match the F/A-18F in high alpha maneuver. Plus the SH has another JHMCS finding targets for its missiles. F-15SG is equipped with a similar sensor/missile combo as the F/A-18F and has a better T/W ratio but is inferior at low speed (see where this is going?). I'd call that parity at the least.

Malaysia? MiG-29S? Not superior in any metric. Su-30MKM? Same as the MK2 except the addition of canards and TVC improve the Flankers nose pointing ability. This allows it to employ weapons faster but those weapons are still inferior to the F/A-18F's.

Who else is there?
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What I see:
I don’t know where you get your info but its clearly all wrong.

I believe it to be true that the airframe of the SH is inadequate in a visual range engagement against SEA airframes
The Super Hornet is one of the best dogfighters in the world with unmatched high alpha capability and nose authority. Combined with a proven off bore sight missile capability with HMDs and AIM-9X. Which aircraft in the SEA theatre can match it? Overweight F-16s? Lightweight F-16s with 1970s Sidewinders? MiG-29s that the regular Hornets have basically bested in training at a ratio of X wins to 0 losses? Su-27s that the pilots aren’t fully qualified on? The only fighters that could give them a go are RSAF F-5s and F-15s and the VNAF Su-27s.

1) SH cannot replicate what F-111s can do as long range bombers.
The Super Hornet can put precise ordnance on the same targets as the F-111. As to the radius of action the F-111 is fundamentally limited to the range of its air to air escort when up against a threat that includes look-down-shoot-down radar equipped fighters. Since any pre 2010 RAAF alone strike package would be made up of un IFR F-111s and IFRed F/A-18As the radius of action would be limited to about ~640 NM, of which 40 NM is the stand off flight of Popeye bomb. The Super Hornet flying by itself and using IFR can reach a bit further or ~660 NM thanks to longer standoff range of its JSOW bomb which defrays the slightly lower range of a Super Hornet carrying bombs compared to a regular Hornet carrying only ATA missiles.

2) SH is an overpriced plane with exaggerated abilities.
It’s the cheapest fighter in production in the west at the moment which is rated by experts at about 60% of the combat capability of a F-35 and about 2-3 times the combat capability of a classic Hornet.

3) Australia had a good industry centered around the F-111, so even with the expenses, money was going back to the Australian people.
A handful of techs all of which were needed on more important projects like putting together the Boeing Wedgetail AEW&C aircraft. No one who worked on the F-111 is starving without a job these days, there is more need for aerospace workers than Australia has at the moment and for some time into the future.

4) Australia is technically proficient to keep F-111s up until they get the F-35s.
That is odd considering the aircraft hardly even made it through to 2010. Launch abort rates of 50% were not uncommon during the 2000s decade. While the airframe could be kept from falling apart all the little widgets that the thing work could not. It was old technology, for old capability that just wasn’t worth it.

The RAAF is far more capable with the Super Hornet than with the F-111. The only bad thing about this modernisation is why didn’t it happen 10 years ago.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
How exactly is the F/A-18F at a disadvantage regionally post merge? What 'airframes' in the region are superior? Why do you consider the airframe to be the determining factor in the post merge environment?

Before you answer those consider this. How is an aircraft with easy low speed handling characteristics and excellent high alpha performance (thanks to its wing and LERX design) equipped with the AIM-9X - with its TVC and FPA seeker - and two JHMCS (on the pilot and WSO) a poor WVR performer? What regional air-forces can field something as well equipped for a knife fight?
There is also the little matter of the planned role for the F/A-18F SHornets, namely taking over the strike role of the F-111, without requiring a fighter escort.

To really do a proper before & after platform comparison, one should compare the RAAF F-111 fitout for a strike mission, with planned RAAF F/A-18F strike mission fitout... Which of those two would 'better' in a knife fight? Hmm, hard to tell, that one...:rolleyes:
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
There is also the little matter of the planned role for the F/A-18F SHornets, namely taking over the strike role of the F-111, without requiring a fighter escort.

To really do a proper before & after platform comparison, one should compare the RAAF F-111 fitout for a strike mission, with planned RAAF F/A-18F strike mission fitout... Which of those two would 'better' in a knife fight? Hmm, hard to tell, that one...:rolleyes:
Indeed. Even in a strike scenario the F-111's actual payload would be inferior to the F/A-18F's. The bay would be taken up with the Pave Tack gear, the outermost underwing hardpoints would be taken up with an ECM pod and an AIM-9M. That leaves two stations with a couple of Mark 84 Paveways. That's 4,000 (count it, 4,000) lbs of munitions placed on target. All at a range determined by the F-111's escorting F/A-18C's.

In the real world the F/A-18F's range of action is superior, its weapons are superior, its sensors are superior, its payload is superior, its A2A and A2G lethality is superior, its EWSP suite is superior, its communications are superior, its supportability is superior and its upgrade path is superior.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
1) SH cannot replicate what F-111s can do as long range bombers.

You could also extended the range of a Super Hornets as they have "buddy store" (ARS) refuelling capability, self escorting but limited to refuelling one aircraft at a time.
 
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Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
To really do a proper before & after platform comparison, one should compare the RAAF F-111 fitout for a strike mission, with planned RAAF F/A-18F strike mission fitout... Which of those two would 'better' in a knife fight? Hmm, hard to tell, that one...:rolleyes:
The F/A-18F has two people on board. So the chances that the pilot has fallen asleep and failed to reconfigure the fighter for a furball are pretty low. If a F/A-18F is bounced en route to the target. - An act considerably harder to do than compared to an F-111 thanks to the tactically significant RCS of a Super Hornet (less than 50% detection range than a F-111) and its much better situational awareness including that very sensitive air search radar in the nose (no such thing in the F-111), plus world’s best fighter ESM, etc, etc – So assuming the F/A-18F wasn’t able to evade interception en route to the target it then engages the interceptors at long range with AMRAAM (no AMRAAMs on F-111s anywhere outside Koppberg capital city of Goonia).

Now if the interceptor actually gets to a merge then the F/A-18F pilot – who is woken up by the back seater – just ejects all tanks and air to ground ordnance. He can even eject the pylons if he really want to clean the plane up. HQ might be pretty pissed if he ejects the ATFLIR so got to keep that onboard.

Now a near clean F/A-18F is going to be a much better dogfighter than an F-111. Not that any F-111 pilot would dog fight, they would just turn and run and leave the interceptor to eat their fumes.

BTW I’ve done some pretty extreme ATA manoeuvres in an F/a-18F with six AMRAAMS hanging from four pylons under the wings. That’s 2,000 lbs in addition to the normal brace of AIM-9X and AIM-120. Or the equivalent in weight and a fair bit more drag than keeping a pair of JSOWs onboard and just blowing off the drop tanks. Burnt a full tank of gas in 60 minutes and really cranked it including up to 7.2 Gs.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Anymore halfbaked F-111 posts are getting deleted.

We've dealt with this idiocy before and no one wants this kind of hair brained posting to pollute this thread again.

If anyone wants to genuflect before the mighty pig then start another thread topic.

I'd ask all the long termers and senior members to avoid responding to this idiocy so it doesn't do another Lazarus
 

Kirkzzy

New Member
Admin: text deleted, See my prev about euthenasing F-111 responses.

How exactly is the F/A-18F at a disadvantage regionally post merge? What 'airframes' in the region are superior? Why do you consider the airframe to be the determining factor in the post merge environment?
I think he means the Sukhoi users that can't afford to put weapons on the aircraft.
 

Kirkzzy

New Member
Admin: text deleted, See my prev about euthenasing F-111 responses.



I think he means the Sukhoi users that can't afford to put weapons on the aircraft.
Sorry about that, I saw the previous post. I was trying to refer to the Super Hornet vs other aircraft in the region, nothing to do with the F-111.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry about that, I saw the previous post. I was trying to refer to the Super Hornet vs other aircraft in the region, nothing to do with the F-111.
feel free to edit it back if its not F-111 related.

I hope you appreciate my position on this, but I've got no desire to see this thread deteriorate into an uber pig et al diversion.
 
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