Philippines,Vietnam Receives Warships

[ManilaBoy]

Amid rising tensions with China, the 2 nations recently received warships to boost their respective naval capability with an Ex-USCGC Hamilton class for the PN and a brand new Gepard class from Russia for the VPN...

http://navaltoday.com/2011/08/23/philippines-vietnam-receive-warships-amid-china-tension/

PN BRP Gregorio Del Pilar PF-15, the Largest and new Flagship for the PN being welcome upon it's arrival inside Manila Bay on tuesday by PN ships PS-35,PS-70 and other smaller gunboats together with 5 PN Islander planes passing above as seen from my 30th floor condo unit ...

VPN Brand New Gepard Class Frigate...

 

[wormhole]

First order of business is to paint over her CG white to navy gray.. she looks like an interisland passenger liner.
There were reports that the government would be negotiating for up to 7 additional Hamilton-class cutters.. hope they materialize.

 

[ManilaBoy]

First order of business is to paint over her CG white to navy gray.. she looks like an interisland passenger liner.
There were reports that the government would be negotiating for up to 7 additional Hamilton-class cutters.. hope they materialize.

The contract has already been awarded to Keppel shipyard in Batangas in the amount of $1.2 Million for a brief 30 day drydock period for her repainting to hazegray and installations of other minor equiptments/armaments prior to being deployed in the disputed SCS areas...

http://www.keppelphilippinesmarineinc.com/batangas.htm

 

[ManilaBoy]

First order of business is to paint over her CG white to navy gray.. she looks like an interisland passenger liner.
There were reports that the government would be negotiating for up to 7 additional Hamilton-class cutters.. hope they materialize.

So far the only confirrmed reports from high ranking PN naval officials are that 2 more additional ships of the Hamilton class is due to be delivered to the PN in FY-2012 under the FMS/EDA program...

 

[Kalasag]

Vietnam buys modern Gepard class frigates from Russia, with the possibility of them building a few ships of the same class in their homeland while the Philippines buys a considerable amount of nearly half-century old ex-USCG Hamilton class cutters, with the US scavenging most of their combat and radar systems, replacing them with watered-down versions. The PN fit it with guns and cannons. I am not impressed. Unless it is upgraded to be an effective submarine-killer and have overwhelming AA capabilities, these ships will be just mere decorations. They also have to fit these ships with attack helicopters designed especially against submarines and upgrade the existing PAF if they don't want these ships to become sitting ducks.

Looking at it positively, at least the Philippines has something.

 

[ManilaBoy]

The 3 naval helicopters that will be acquired by the PN will have an ASW capability as originally planned while the 4(+4) Sokol helicopters that are due for delivery in November from Poland to the PAF can also be fitted with a sonar dipping device, a brand new long range air search radar is also being plan to be installed on PF-15...

 

[STURM]

Vietnam buys modern Gepard class frigates from Russia, with the possibility of them building a few ships of the same class in their homeland while the Philippines buys a considerable amount of nearly half-century old ex-USCG Hamilton class cutters, with the US scavenging most of their combat and radar systems, replacing them with watered-down versions.

Vietnam currently has a much faster moving economy than the Philippines so its able to allocate resources for new gear.
As the Philippine economy improves we can expect orders for new gear.

Looking at it positively, at least the Philippines has something.

True, the ex-USCG provides the PN with an excellent patrol capability and has better sea keeping and endurance than other PN ships.

 

[wormhole]

The 3 naval helicopters that will be acquired by the PN will have an ASW capability as originally planned while the 4(+4) Sokol helicopters that are due for delivery in November from Poland to the PAF can also be fitted with a sonar dipping device, a brand new long range air search radar is also being plan to be installed on PF-15...

Any idea what model for the 3 naval helos? New or refurbished?

 

[Belesari]

Could the PN afford the upkeep for the US radar and combat systems?

Me i would have given them the things. And a perry or 3 for them to have some real bite.

But the PN isnt going to be challenging china anytime soon. Only the US and Japan could do that with any credibility.

So they need THOSE ships not crusiers or destroyers. They got what was needed. A ship that can hand well in severe weather has good flexability and range for patroling...........how many islands in the Philappines? Thousands i think? They also still have a insurgency problem so..........

Over all a good fit and a good choice.

Vietnam buys modern Gepard class frigates from Russia, with the possibility of them building a few ships of the same class in their homeland while the Philippines buys a considerable amount of nearly half-century old ex-USCG Hamilton class cutters, with the US scavenging most of their combat and radar systems, replacing them with watered-down versions. The PN fit it with guns and cannons. I am not impressed. Unless it is upgraded to be an effective submarine-killer and have overwhelming AA capabilities, these ships will be just mere decorations. They also have to fit these ships with attack helicopters designed especially against submarines and upgrade the existing PAF if they don't want these ships to become sitting ducks.

Looking at it positively, at least the Philippines has something.

 

[ManilaBoy]

The 3 helicopters that will be acquired by the PN will be brand new and will have ASW capability based on recent local news here, unless things change we are looking at 3 modern naval helos that will most likely be for dedicated operational use to the 3 (1+2 more) Ex-USCG Hamilton class cutters that are also scheduled to arrive next year...

 

[Kalasag]

Vietnam currently has a much faster moving economy than the Philippines so its able to allocate resources for new gear.
As the Philippine economy improves we can expect orders for new gear.



True, the ex-USCG provides the PN with an excellent patrol capability and has better sea keeping and endurance than other PN ships.

I am amazed it actually has better endurance then its Vietnamese counterparts. But then again, we won't be bombing Hainan anytime soon.

 

[Kalasag]

The 3 helicopters that will be acquired by the PN will be brand new and will have ASW capability based on recent local news here, unless things change we are looking at 3 modern naval helos that will most likely be for dedicated operational use to the 3 (1+2 more) Ex-USCG Hamilton class cutters that are also scheduled to arrive next year...

Can anyone confirm if the Philippines is truly buying a grand total of 7 Hamilton class ships or not? Good for the PN if they can detect and pose a threat to Chinese subs though I still have my reservations.

Well, aside from these frigates, the PN still has relatively modern ships: three former RN Peacock class ships and the former USN Cyclone class ship built in the 80's and 90's respectively. Not familiar with the combat systems of these ships, I could only say the Hamilton-class cutter combat systems are more advanced. But they have great potential to be fitted with modern upgrades.

Realistically speaking, the PN right now should:
1) Scrap or convert the WW2-era ships into having more of a role in logistics and supply for the AFP.
2) Have any form of AWACS capability.
3) Upgrade ships with increased defensive countermeasures.

If the PN is looking to be much more battle-worthy, they should look into buying ships similar to the Singaporean Formidable class frigate or the South African Valour class frigate and/or install Aegis Combat Systems on their capital ships. Likewise, investing in a significant number of fast attack craft (modern missile and torpedo boats) would be able to protect the sovereignty of the Philippines' long coastlines and provide a powerful brown-water navy capability within and around the archipelago, not to mention more economical then the former as the Philippines does not need a green-water navy capability (and the main cause of my reservation as to buying frigates) IMHO.

 

[colay]

Can anyone confirm if the Philippines is truly buying a grand total of 7 Hamilton class ships or not? Good for the PN if they can detect and pose a threat to Chinese subs though I still have my reservations.

Well, aside from these frigates, the PN still has relatively modern ships: three former RN Peacock class ships and the former USN Cyclone class ship built in the 80's and 90's respectively. Not familiar with the combat systems of these ships, I could only say the Hamilton-class cutter combat systems are more advanced. But they have great potential to be fitted with modern upgrades.

Realistically speaking, the PN right now should:
1) Scrap or convert the WW2-era ships into having more of a role in logistics and supply for the AFP.
2) Have any form of AWACS capability.
3) Upgrade ships with increased defensive countermeasures.

If the PN is looking to be much more battle-worthy, they should look into buying ships similar to the Singaporean Formidable class frigate or the South African Valour class frigate and/or install Aegis Combat Systems on their capital ships. Likewise, investing in a significant number of fast attack craft (modern missile and torpedo boats) would be able to protect the sovereignty of the Philippines' long coastlines and provide a powerful brown-water navy capability within and around the archipelago, not to mention more economical then the former as the Philippines does not need a green-water navy capability (and the main cause of my reservation as to buying frigates) IMHO.

That's what i'd read somewhere, that the PN hoped to build a fleet of 8 Hamilto-class cutters. The 2 additional ships MB mentioned earlier seem more certain and we can only hope they don't stop at 3 ships.

All the other capabilities you describe may be a bit out of reach for the moment. Nice to have though. What intrigues me is the report that the PN is planning on the possibility of acquiring one SSK. I really hope this materializes and priority is given to acquiring more in the future. Probably nothing scares the crew of warships more than the idea of a sub lurking in the area.

Colay (aka Wormhole}

 

[STURM]

I am amazed it actually has better endurance then its Vietnamese counterparts. But then again, we won't be bombing Hainan anytime soon.

They are much larger ships than anything the Vietnamese operate and were originally used by the USCG to patrol Alaskan waters.

 

[Kalasag]

That's what i'd read somewhere, that the PN hoped to build a fleet of 8 Hamilto-class cutters. The 2 additional ships MB mentioned earlier seem more certain and we can only hope they don't stop at 3 ships.

All the other capabilities you describe may be a bit out of reach for the moment. Nice to have though. What intrigues me is the report that the PN is planning on the possibility of acquiring one SSK. I really hope this materializes and priority is given to acquiring more in the future. Probably nothing scares the crew of warships more than the idea of a sub lurking in the area.

Colay (aka Wormhole}

What the hell is the Philippines going to do with a submarine? Yes, I did read it somewhere that the Philippines is looking to buy one by 2020. It still seems like an utter waste of funds to me.

 

[STURM]

What the hell is the Philippines going to do with a submarine? Yes, I did read it somewhere that the Philippines is looking to buy one by 2020. It still seems like an utter waste of funds to me.

I agree that given the state of the PN and the age of its ships, emphasis should be on getting replacements for the present surface fleet. On the other hand it's perfectly normal for any navy to have long term plans or a shopping list, what has happened is that PN planners have indentified a future need for subs. Off course when this happens is anybody's guess, it could be 5 years, it could be 10 years or more, as it depends on a lot of factors. In the case of the Royal Malaysian Navy [RMN], it first indentified a need for subs in the late 1970's, then almost got 2 ex-RN Oberons in 1988 only to have the deal cancelled, almost got 2 KockumsT-96s in 1996 only to have the deal canceled again and instead got 2 frigates and finally ordered 2 Scorpenes in 2002 - almost 20 odd years after asking for subs. A key lesson the Malaysian government has learnt, and one that the PN should take notice off and factor into consideration, is that operating subs is a very, very expensive business! In about a year or so, a company will be contracted to supply the RMN with a submatine rescue capability, and this will cost millions more!

In the case of the PN, what is urgently needed are patrol ships and MPA aircraft, for which there are a lot of affordable options, once the government provides funding.

 

[Kalasag]

I agree that given the state of the PN and the age of its ships, emphasis should be on getting replacements for the present surface fleet. On the other hand it's perfectly normal for any navy to have long term plans or a shopping list, what has happened is that PN planners have indentified a future need for subs. Off course when this happens is anybody's guess, it could be 5 years, it could be 10 years or more, as it depends on a lot of factors. In the case of the Royal Malaysian Navy [RMN], it first indentified a need for subs in the late 1970's, then almost got 2 ex-RN Oberons in 1988 only to have the deal cancelled, almost got 2 KockumsT-96s in 1996 only to have the deal canceled again and instead got 2 frigates and finally ordered 2 Scorpenes in 2002 - almost 20 odd years after asking for subs. A key lesson the Malaysian government has learnt, and one that the PN should take notice off and factor into consideration, is that operating subs is a very, very expensive business! In about a year or so, a company will be contracted to supply the RMN with a submatine rescue capability, and this will cost millions more!

In the case of the PN, what is urgently needed are patrol ships and MPA aircraft, for which there are a lot of affordable options, once the government provides funding.

It seems the Philippines (or its government officials) wants to buy shiny new toys instead of purchasing what's needed to maintain the integrity of the nation. While I do support modernization efforts of the PN, it's ability should at the least be able to hold out external aggressors for a time until international aid comes and one submarine cannot provide coverage against a multitude of air and seaborne threats. You are right, a submarine is very expensive, requires high upkeep, well-trained crews and proper maintenance. I do not underestimate the strategic value of a submarine in battle and I do agree it will give the Philippines some form of strike capability and therefore power projection but I don't think the cost is worth it and there is no need for it.

Another reason I support the Philippines buying more modern frigates is because it is more economical in the long run, as it will require less maintenance, less upkeep and less crew. The overhead maybe higher though, but the decision-makers should know these ships are in for a long time.

 

[ManilaBoy]

Once they have the 3 Ex-Hamilton Class cutters on their fleet as planned then it should all be upgraded with a more advanced weapons system under one contract to save the PN some money cause doing it one by one under different contracts will be a more costly project...

 

[colay]

A sub has many advantages. Its stealthy and is an ideal intelligence gathering platform. It is survivable, at least much more so than any surface asset the PN is likely to have. It is an effective A2/AD system and a threat to any surface vessel. There's a reason our neighbors are investing in subs.

You have to start somewhere and a single sub is an investment in the future. I'd say its an ideal capability for the PN funds allowing given all the other pressing needs. It is an investment in the future w/c will be increasingly more hostile to surface vessels.

Re arming the ex-USCG cutter fleet, one would have to examine the signed agreements governing their use to see what systems, particularly offensive, the US Government will approve.. yes, its not a purely commercial transaction and there are strings attached.

 

[ManilaBoy]

What kind of weapons systems and armaments are the US going to install?

What do you mean the US? I said once the PN has the 3 vessels in their fleet already is when the contract for a weapons upgrade should be sought and awarded which is more economical than doing it on a one at a time basis...