Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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rossfrb_1

Member
AWD torpedo launchers

Really? I was aware that the MU90 had been tested and certified for use aboard the Anzac-class FFH and that they had been ordered as replacements for the Mk 46 LWT currently in use. I had not been aware that they had already been chosen as the LWT for use aboard the Hobart-class AWD. I had thought a decision on that was still pending.

Out of curiousity, does anyone know what the Spanish navy uses aboard their F-100's as a LWT?

-Cheers
ADM: Babcock assembling AWD torpedo launchers

Looks like another Australianised (ie unique) system for our 'off the shelf 'F-100's
regards
rb
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
ADM: Babcock assembling AWD torpedo launchers

Looks like another Australianised (ie unique) system for our 'off the shelf 'F-100's
regards
rb
That is peculiar. I had assumed that the AWD would just re-use some of the triple barrel Mk 32 launchers already in RAN service, after they had been removed from some of the FFG's and perhaps receive some updating.

Is there a particular reason behind going with a twin barrel configuration? On the surface at least, it would seem to make more sense to use the same launcher type across the entire RAN... Or is the need for just a twin barrel due to the max height of the gunport?

-Cheers
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
That is peculiar. I had assumed that the AWD would just re-use some of the triple barrel Mk 32 launchers already in RAN service, after they had been removed from some of the FFG's and perhaps receive some updating.

Is there a particular reason behind going with a twin barrel configuration? On the surface at least, it would seem to make more sense to use the same launcher type across the entire RAN... Or is the need for just a twin barrel due to the max height of the gunport?
The F100 is designed for the fixed launcher you can't just pull it out and replace it with a the Mk 32 launcher. The launcher is fixed in a magazine with thick steel walls and there is no exterior deck space nearby for an external Mk 32.

I don't seem to recall the G&C AWD even having a LWT launcher...
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The F100 is designed for the fixed launcher you can't just pull it out and replace it with a the Mk 32 launcher. The launcher is fixed in a magazine with thick steel walls and there is no exterior deck space nearby for an external Mk 32.

I don't seem to recall the G&C AWD even having a LWT launcher...
I think you misunderstand my question. I know that the twin-tube Mk 32 launcher planned for the Hobart-class is in a fixed location, and I admit when I first looked over the drawings, I could not figure out where the tubes were, since they are mounted to fire broadside.

My question really is, why are they going with a twin-tube Mk 32 in the magazine, instead of re-using some of the triple-tube Mk 32's in the magazine, which the RAN has been using for years albeit on external mountings.

-Cheers
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There will be difficulty on a AWD if we end up with a mix of torpedoes. The F100 has two magazines / torpedo tube rooms. One either side of the fwd end of the hanger. (Similar to the set up on a Halifax, if you ever had a chance to check one of those Grayhounds out).


I don't think it will be as easy as dedicating one mag to MK 46/54 and the other to the MU-90s as both launchers need to be easily loaded from their racks.I'm not saying this is not the solution but having two sets of torpedoes on one ship will cause a measure of "Piss-Farting" about.


As two why don't we use old Mk32, Well these launchers have been bouncing between DE's/DDG's/FFG's/FFH's so some are as old as 40 odd years...and well they are old. Also I don't think a low tech SVTT is a very expensive item in the grand scheme.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I think you misunderstand my question. I know that the twin-tube Mk 32 launcher planned for the Hobart-class is in a fixed location, and I admit when I first looked over the drawings, I could not figure out where the tubes were, since they are mounted to fire broadside.

My question really is, why are they going with a twin-tube Mk 32 in the magazine, instead of re-using some of the triple-tube Mk 32's in the magazine, which the RAN has been using for years albeit on external mountings.
I understood what you were asking and thought I responded to it. The F100's torpedo bays are also magazines so have very thick steel walls to contain fires and explosions. So you can't just go make a bigger cutout to fit in a different type of launcher without redesigning the whole rear of the ship. This is a much bigger job than just buying some two tube launchers that fit the bay design.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
This is a much bigger job than just buying some two tube launchers that fit the bay design.
Okay, this was what I was after and still was not sure of from the prior answer. The new tubes are designed to fit within the bay, as opposed to designing the bay around the tubes.

Part of why I still was not sure is that from the pictures I have seen of triple-tube Mk 32 launchers, they appear to have the same width as the twin-tube Mk 32 Mod 9's planned for the AWD. Where they visually appear to differ is the height, since the older Mk 32's have a third tube (IIRC usually topside). There of course would be some differences between the launchers since a triple-tube would have the additional weight associated with a third torp, tube and launching kit. However, I could not tell from the diagrams and photos I currently have seen whether that would make a difference or not, as it apparently does. Thanks for the clarification.

-Cheers
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Okay, this was what I was after and still was not sure of from the prior answer. The new tubes are designed to fit within the bay, as opposed to designing the bay around the tubes.

Part of why I still was not sure is that from the pictures I have seen of triple-tube Mk 32 launchers, they appear to have the same width as the twin-tube Mk 32 Mod 9's planned for the AWD. Where they visually appear to differ is the height, since the older Mk 32's have a third tube (IIRC usually topside). There of course would be some differences between the launchers since a triple-tube would have the additional weight associated with a third torp, tube and launching kit. However, I could not tell from the diagrams and photos I currently have seen whether that would make a difference or not, as it apparently does. Thanks for the clarification.

-Cheers
I have seen a photo taken inside a F100 mag and the tubes where mounted vertically.

As a maintainer ...... well as a supervisor these days :whip , I really like the idea of internal SVTT's. Ships husbandry requirements would be much less and at least on ANZAC' the TUBES get damaged a lot from RHIB launching and recovery (They are fiber glass after all).
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I have seen a photo taken inside a F100 mag and the tubes where mounted vertically.

As a maintainer ...... well as a supervisor these days :whip , I really like the idea of internal SVTT's. Ships husbandry requirements would be much less and at least on ANZAC' the TUBES get damaged a lot from RHIB launching and recovery (They are fiber glass after all).
The F-100s have a passage way connecting the two torpedo magazines but I believe this has been deleted on the Hobarts to increase hanger volume as both the NFH90 and SH60R are longer than the SH60B the F-100 hanger was designed around.

It needs to remembered that the AWD solution is meant to be the existing design option, i.e. minimum change from the F104 with only changes required by operational, legal obligations, or obsolesance incorporated into the RAN ships.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Interesting! Are they taking a run at in-service support for LHD/AWD? Maybe they'll buy the Williamstown yard.
AFAIK BAE Australia owns the Williamstown yard. If Navantia is interested in it, BAE would need to be willing to sell it. And honestly, if BAE were willing to sell it, I suspect the reasoning would be that BAE could get more money from doing so, than they could by upgrading the yards sufficiently to allow it to compete for future RAN warship programmes.

The ASC site in SA for the AWD programme is IIRC a new, expanded greenfield site. The Williamstown dockyard however has had docks in the vicinity of the site since the reign of HM Queen Victoria. Between the age of some of the facilities (pre-WWII or perhaps WWI) and the fact that Williamstown has been built up substantially since the initial graving dock and slipway were built c. 1858, the Williamstown facility is smaller and older, with less space to expand or room available to update facilities.

-Cheers
 
Interesting! Are they taking a run at in-service support for LHD/AWD? Maybe they'll buy the Williamstown yard.
I wonder what they are thinking as it seems like a rather small capital investment to really make a splash in the australian ship building industry as US$5.24 million is not going to buy them williamstown docks, would barely buy them a building for a small office let alone all the other start up expenses. I wonder if its a more symbolic move to place themselves seemingly closer to the action here. :confused:
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I wonder what they are thinking as it seems like a rather small capital investment to really make a splash in the australian ship building industry as US$5.24 million is not going to buy them williamstown docks, would barely buy them a building for a small office let alone all the other start up expenses. I wonder if its a more symbolic move to place themselves seemingly closer to the action here. :confused:
I will make this first part VERY CLEAR !!
I do not want to start the Spanish taking over the world stuff again !
A $5 mil investment is more than likely an optomistic attempt at posturing for up-coming Anzac II's, OCV's and subs. When you look at the potential outcome of just one of these contract's and the fact that they will be built in Australia, and not Spain or anywhere else for that matter, the investment is just a drop in the ocean for the ROI
 
Just two simple comments.

The initial equity capital is normally calculated to take the company through one full cycle (normally one year) and is rarely representative of the level of business activity that such a business would have. Initial equity capital is just to form the company and should not be confused with capital investment.

As a matter of curiosity, if anyone is interested check the initial equity capital some of the companies you think important were form with.

The Spanish taking over the world......... you are funny, it was just a bit of news, I thought it would be interested but no intention of offending anyone... back to my cave.


Regards
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
$5m would pay for 5 consultants and support staff plus a 2 year lease on Northbourne Ave.

Its symbolic and is just to have presence.
 

Kirkzzy

New Member
I will make this first part VERY CLEAR !!
I do not want to start the Spanish taking over the world stuff again !
A $5 mil investment is more than likely an optomistic attempt at posturing for up-coming Anzac II's, OCV's and subs. When you look at the potential outcome of just one of these contract's and the fact that they will be built in Australia, and not Spain or anywhere else for that matter, the investment is just a drop in the ocean for the ROI
In relation to the OCV, and I guess the Spaniards in a way (not recent events e.g Navantia), does anyone think the Spanish Meteoro class would be a good idea?
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Spanish taking over the world......... you are funny, it was just a bit of news, I thought it would be interested but no intention of offending anyone... back to my cave.


Regards
:D I knew you would see the funny side of it, some previous members would not though :( and take it as an oportunity to flare up.
RIP those members no longer with us :flame

GF, do you see this as a potential move for them to put out the feelers, or purely symbolic with the LHD/AWD's ?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
GF, do you see this as a potential move for them to put out the feelers, or purely symbolic with the LHD/AWD's ?
A degree of symbolism as they need to have a presence to deal with extant projects, and they'll be hoping like crazy that the media get to make the future sub decision so that the S80 derivative has a chance.

Plus both AWD and the phats have issues, so being present is kind of critical....

I can name 10-12 companies that don't have major sales but invested that kind of money to be visible.

Defence industry is a small community in Oz, everyone knows everyone, so if you aren't visible then you aren't remembered...
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
After signing billion dollar deals they are setting up offices now?

I think the only weird thing is they haven't set up earlier.

The logistics of the LHD's is huge. Build the hulls in spain, ship them over, build the rest here and fit out. Add to that the awds. Working some fairly imfamous contractors and industry managment that would quiet easily let the whole project fall apart.

I would imagine Natavia would need an office they can keep an eye out on the project, offer channels of communication for contractors, etc.

With other projects comming on line, it would be useful to hire some people on the ground to get a peice of the action.
 
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