Is Pakistan really strategically that important?

[legoboy]

I read a couple of weeks/months ago that China was going to provide Pakistan with 50 JF-17 fighters for no cost at all @#!$!!.

This must be close to a billion dollars worth of jets if my calculations are right ( Approx 20 million each X 50 of them)

I had no idea Pakistan was important enough to China for them to give away 1 billion dollars worth of jets to.

Pakistans economy is also fairly weak so I don't see any economic benefits from this deal either.

Hopefully some of you "military experts" here can give me some insight into these matters =)

 

[Tango1992]

well basically...
if we will talk about china....china had been in support of pakistan since the independence.
the other fact is to maintain strategic hold over india since we know india had make a useless attempt to attack china but failed..china knows it very well that in times of need against india...if someone can tackle back india with something great...its Pakistan.

secondly the news you read is true...china supplying pakistan with 50 jf-17 thunders...but not free of cost..
PAC and CAC planned that first prototypes will be made in CHINA then the rest 150 thunders will be made in Pakistan.
uptil now Pakistan made 2 squadrons of thunder birds means 26 jets operational..
in order to cover the 150 target quickly they make agreement with china that we will make 100 in Pakistan ....china will make the rest 50 and pakistan will pay for it as they are spending it in PAC for making thunders.
its a need for Pakistan to replace their ageing mirages...A-5...F-7pg with new advanced thunders as soon as possible.
PAC and CAC are alos working together on JF-17 thunder BLOCK-2(stelath variant) and recently PAC aeronautical engineers approved the design for Pakistan's first stealth jet J-2X to be made as a joint venture between PAK-CHINA.
Pakistan is truly important strategically
for China
for USA
for ALL ARAB COUNTRIES
Regards!
TANGO:gun

 

[T.C.P]

I read a couple of weeks/months ago that China was going to provide Pakistan with 50 JF-17 fighters for no cost at all @#!$!!.

This must be close to a billion dollars worth of jets if my calculations are right ( Approx 20 million each X 50 of them)

I had no idea Pakistan was important enough to China for them to give away 1 billion dollars worth of jets to.

Pakistans economy is also fairly weak so I don't see any economic benefits from this deal either.

Hopefully some of you "military experts" here can give me some insight into these matters =)

I think the report said J-10s and not JF-17s.

Pakistan is China's counterbalance to India and their most important ally in the region.

 

[STURM]

Hopefully some of you "military experts" here can give me some insight into these matters =)

I'm no expert but I can tell you this - in many ways the PRC is a more important strategic partner than the U.S. and from a Pakistani perspective, is seen as a more reliable long term partner than the U.S.

Pakistan hasn't forgotten how it was 'abandoned' after the Soviet pullout from Afghanistan and when it was hit by an arms embargo, the PRC was able to fill in the void by being a source of military items that are cheaper with practically no strings attached and with transfers of technology that Pakistan would not get from the West. The PN has 3 Lynxs that have been placed in storage as buying spares from Britain was more expensive than buying 6 helicopters from the PRC! The PRC also provide Pakistan with a security umbrella against India with Indian defence planners being fully aware than in the event of a future war with Pakistan, an outright victory that threatens Pakistan's very survival or sovereignty, will draw the PRC into the conflict.

 

[Tango1992]

Pakistan had payed a great amount for 36 J-10B
Pakistan also getting 4 qing class submarines and 2 0542A ffga frigates from china plus more Z-9 harbins and the projects for jf-17 thunders block-1,block-2,J-2x,J-10B...
indeed pak-china strategic partner ship is an example.
they provide themselves with great support just like on osama raid...
beijing said "if united states is messing with pakistan...then its messing with beijing"
and for India...pak-china are always a threat:daz

 

[Twinblade]

Pakistan had payed a great amount for 36 J-10B

Care to post a link instead of standard "google it, its all over the internet" reply ?Please don't bother to post links that talk of rumors and conjectures, they have been all over the internet since the day J-10 made it first public appearance.

Pakistan also getting 4 qing class submarines and 2 0542A ffga frigates from china plus more Z-9 harbins and the projects for jf-17 thunders block-1,block-2,J-2x,J-10B..

Links.. links.. links ? and most important question, where's the money ? 8 billion dollar defence budget with 2% annual GDP growth and higher expenditure on manpower compared to the neighbours, all these procurement plans seem to be wishful thinking.

indeed pak-china strategic partner ship is an example.
they provide themselves with great support just like on osama raid...
beijing said "if united states is messing with pakistan...then its messing with beijing"
and for India...pak-china are always a threat:daz

Strange way of twisting words..

 

[Tango1992]

my work is not to provide and feed you with links here...
you got your own hands for that.

twisting words?
thats the post from china.
you can see it on record anywhere..
IF YOU ARE MESSING WITH ISLAMABAD THEN YOU ARE MESSING WITH BEIJING

better be carefull while commenting at me..first make a research then talk

pakistan aquiring J-10B is something at the show...no need to provide you with links...
chengdu have confirmed it as a variant of J-10A especially made on the given estimation of Pakistan.
4 qing class submarines and 2 054A ffg frigets contract was signed in december last year

better make a research then speak here
:duel

 

[Bonza]

Actually it's pretty reasonable for people to ask for links if you're going to make a statement on these forums. You also might want to look at your posting style in future - giving attitude to other posters isn't encouraged here. Take it as friendly advice. Cheers mate.

 

[webmaster]

my work is not to provide and feed you with links here...
you got your own hands for that.

twisting words?
thats the post from china.
you can see it on record anywhere..
IF YOU ARE MESSING WITH ISLAMABAD THEN YOU ARE MESSING WITH BEIJING

better be carefull while commenting at me..first make a research then talk

pakistan aquiring J-10B is something at the show...no need to provide you with links...
chengdu have confirmed it as a variant of J-10A especially made on the given estimation of Pakistan.
4 qing class submarines and 2 054A ffg frigets contract was signed in december last year

better make a research then speak here
:duel

Can you watch your tone, no need to attack other members. When someone makes a claim, it obviously, originated from somewhere, didn't it? What is that source?

Also, watch your spelling as there are a lot of errors in your post. If you are going to show an attitude, at least do it with correct spelling so people take you with some seriousness?
Do read the rules:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php

you can see it on record anywhere..
IF YOU ARE MESSING WITH ISLAMABAD THEN YOU ARE MESSING WITH BEIJING

WHERE did you see it?

 

[riksavage]

my work is not to provide and feed you with links here...
you got your own hands for that.

twisting words?
thats the post from china.
you can see it on record anywhere..
IF YOU ARE MESSING WITH ISLAMABAD THEN YOU ARE MESSING WITH BEIJING

better be carefull while commenting at me..first make a research then talk

pakistan aquiring J-10B is something at the show...no need to provide you with links...
chengdu have confirmed it as a variant of J-10A especially made on the given estimation of Pakistan.
4 qing class submarines and 2 054A ffg frigets contract was signed in december last year

better make a research then speak here
:duel

I seriously doubt Beijing would go to war on behalf of Pakistan against India. Supplying weapons is one thing shedding blood on a grand scale is a totally different proposition.

China's much advertised foreign policy is not to get involved in another nations affairs, so what concrete evidence (written pact of formal declaration) do you have that China would immediately mobilise and join Pakistan hand in glove should another India/Pak war breakout?

 

[legoboy]

"This year, China agreed to provide Pakistan with 50 JF-17s without cost and dozens of J-10 fighter jets under a loan with generous terms. ". As quoted from multiple websites.

Also, Yes Pakistan bought J-10's from China but 36 J-10's cost around the same as 50 JF-17's so essentially China gave Pakistan for free one billion dollars worth of fighter jets.

I also agree with riksavage. I doubt Beijing would intervene in a conflict between Pakistan and India. Depending on who initiated the conflict China MAY provide Pakistan some weapons but thats about all I think it would do.


P.S - Does anybody know how the joint development of the JF-17 would have worked ? I would have thought China would have had far superior aerial technology compared to the Pakistanis. I can't see how the Pakistan could even contribute anything to the development of the JF-17 that the Chinese don't already know.

 

[Tango1992]

J-10B:-
China plans to market the Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 and J-10 fighters aggressively as part of its plan to become a major player in the global aerospace industry.

"While AVIC's main job is to manufacture aircraft, the company also fulfils a national agenda by producing military aircraft for China's political allies around the world," says a source close to Chengdu's state-owned parent company. "There are also countries that would like to buy a good fighter, but not at the cost of a Western fighter.

"While China's military aircraft have been exported for many years, this is the first time that there is a concerted effort to properly market them and establish a support network," the source adds.

In the past few months, senior company officials have been identifying the military products that will be given the most attention for the export market. In the fighter segment, the JF-17 and the J-10 are the two most important aircraft, says the source.

"Given that the JF-17 has been in service in China and Pakistan for a number of years and is a mature programme, it is being given first priority," the source adds.

Islamabad, which helped to develop the JF-17, has committed to buying 150 aircraft produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. This figure could rise to 300 aircraft to replace the country's air force fleets of Nanchang A-5s, Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirage III and Mirage Vs.

The JF-17 will be able to carry a variety of conventional and precision-guided bombs, and air-to-air and air-to-sea missiles from short- to beyond-visual-range. The type is already being marketed to countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America and South-East Asia.

"The J-10 is not ready for export yet, as AVIC is still finalising upgrades for the fighter," the source says. "But there has been interest from several countries."

AVIC is likely to begin exports of the new type - which entered Chinese air force service in early 2007 - after it has finished developing an upgraded J-10B version. Enhancements are to include a modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, redesigned engine inlet, a new radar and an infrared search and track sensor.
Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer, having begun negotiations to buy 36 aircraft several years ago. To be designated locally as FC-20s, deliveries are likely to begin from 2014-15.
Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2009, a long-rumored deal was announced for China’s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.

The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the project’s early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF in July 2004.

China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.

 

[Tango1992]

JF-17 THUNDER BLOCK-2(STEALTH VARIANT)
Pakistan and China have recently concluded a final agreement for the manufacture of a second batch of JF-17s. According to well-vetted sources from Pakdef (Eagle Hannan), these 50 jets are the final form of the JF-17s. The aircraft will be manufactured at Kamra, Pakistan, but will be flown to China for additional work. This work is said to relate to a new generation of avionics and sensor suite.

The Block II JF-17 is believed to have AESA radars similar to those observed on the J-10B. The integrated avionics, sensors and EW suite is entirely Chinese and is believed to be at the level of Europes best planes. The AESA radar is a slightly smaller version of the one being utilized for the J-10B. The radar is highly sophisticated and its installation is beyond the present capacity at PAC Kamra and will thus require the aircraft to take a trip to Nanjing, China.

The Block II will be the standard version to be used in the PAF with the older Block Is to be retired after the end of production for the first 150 aircraft. This suggests that the structural changes needed to convert the Block Is to Block II standard are significant, suggesting considerable changes to the revised edition. The following are believed to be some of the key changes:

1. AESA radar

2. Comprehensive upgrades for low RCS profile including cockpit glass, RAM paint, refined structure, completely new nose structure for AESA, significant increase in the use of composites and retractable refueling probe.

3. Awaited integration of A-Darter missiles from Brazil / South Africa with HOBS capability and Brazilian HMS.

4. The BVR missile is the SD-10B which has been found more than a match for the AMRAAM-120 C5s. An unknown Meteor class missile is in the works beyond the SD-10Bs.
A significant export order has been secured and an entire squadron is being dedicated for training and familiarization of foreign pilots (Source: Eagle Hannan, Pakdef).

Contrary to conflicting reports in the media, this writer believes that the order for the FC-20s were finalized and that this order has increased to 58 planes. Given the recent crisis post-Abbottabad, the PAF is being beefed up in a hurry and the FC-20s will play a critical role in the defence of the Western sector. Given the nature of the mountainous terrain and the inability to use the F-16s, these platforms along with the JF-17 will prove to be of significant deterrence value. China is believed to be sacrificing its own production requirements to meet PAF's needs in a hurry and unbelievable financial terms appear to have been extended.

These FC-20s are a highly lethal version of the original and incorporate AESA radars, a high degree of composite use, low observability features and an advanced integrated avionics suite. The wide HUD visible on the J-11s are also believed to have been utilized. In Eagle Hannan's recent update, he notes that the wings have been modified and include over 50% composite use. He also makes the surprising claim that the canard fore-planes have been modified. Both these factors indicate a significant structural and aerodynamic revamp that would require significant changes even in the FBW.Such a revamp was already suspected given the canted nose and the DSI bump.

The same source also indicates that the plane (FC-20) has been praised by pilots and capable of incredible maneuvers including the Cobra so famously performed by the FLANKERs. He notes that FC-20 not only performs this maneuver but also performs it better, recovering significantly faster. While this maneuver is not of great military importance, the maneuverability and Fly-By-Wire (FBW) maturity this indicates, suggest that the FC-20 is a well-evolved and lethal machine.

Eagle Hannan also indicates that the Pakistan Navy is interested in the J-11Bs with Russian engines. This appears to be counter-intuitive given the sensitive nature of Russia's copyright relations with China. However, it is possible that Pakistan may attempt to placate this sensitivity by buying Russian engines and paying royalties. It is also possible that Russia is smarting from India's recent rejection of Russian military gear and move towards Western sources. These all make for a great deal of controversy and are likely to keep arm-chair generals and military analysts busy in the foreseeable future.What is clear is that Pakistan and the PAF will get a significant boost, in fact a major leap in capabilities in the next 12-24 months.

 

[Twinblade]

well i got a lot of links but they are all related to HTML...
so kinda badluck i would'nt be able to show them
or if someone can show me how to post HTML files then do tell me i will post links and answer to every question

I think you are able to do it once you have crossed 10 posts or above. Btw j-2x or whatever its designation is looks like a neat do-able design, especially if ws-15 goes online, the question again is cost. This is the first design for a single engine stealthy chinese air frame I have come across, most of the other designs being the shenyang design for a heavy twin engine silent eagle type aircraft with a conventional layout. Also if we keep in mind the number of fan-art designs that have come out of chinese forums, I would rather consume it with a pinch of salt.

btw Pakistani cabinet approved j-10 purchase in 2006, but it has been officially offered only a couple of months back with deliveries stated 2014 and beyond, which given the development state and the requirements of PLAAF, seems reasonable. However,

4 qing class submarines and 2 054A ffg frigets contract was signed in december last year

this is an info that can be traced back to a blog of dubious claims and pakistani forums that have thousands of posts without a single link, while no news agency bothers to report it.

Wednesday 4th may

China To USA: ‘If You Mess With Pakistan You Will Be Messing With China’
you can find its live video at you tube

@legoboy
you are underestimating PAF engineers
they have been working at Pac kamra making drones .. glided bombs...and reparing thier A-5's,mirages and f-7pg's
the J-6 was considered "disposable" and was intended to be operated for only 100 flight hours (or approximately 100 sorties) before being overhauled. The Pakistan Air Force was often able to extend this to 130 hours with diligent maintenance.

PAF engineers designed the software based on C language for thunder...the design of thunder was a PAF choice.
many things behind the show
PAC and CAC
are also working on SD-10B,THUNDER BLOCK-2,J-2X
regards

Not questioning the ability of Pakistani engineers and technicians, but where are the composites related research and production facilities, much less the sub vendors required for such a task ? Lets talk something more basic here, where is the ability to develop indigenous network-centric capabilities, absence of which forces them to network the link-16 of f-16's with datalinks of jf-17 via a ground based network exchange ? How about some sort of a modern indigenous radar development (even ground based shall do) ?
Jf-17 is a good start and going by its all metal design and cost effective materials. It seems primarily targeted towards airforces with least complicated maintenance regimes and a minimum technology intensive manufacturing. However 5-th generation aircrafts would require a massive jump in capabilities which, by default, cost a bomb. Hence my response included the economy aspect.

There you go sir, with my "research" to back up my posts.

 

[dragonfire]

The question should be "Is Pakistan Strategically Important to China" considering the question arose on the backdrop of the Combat Aircraft deal in question.

IMHO Pakistan is important to China in a Strategic Sense as a regional partner and customer of its defense industry as well as has a Strategic effect as a Counter Balance to Regional bi-Polarity vis-a-vis India. The Gwador port in Pakistan built by China is as a part of of it 'String of Pearls' encirclement strategy (there is a port being constructed in Sri Lanka as well)

However it is also important to understand that Sino-Indian relations are now at a much better level than it has been in decades. There is a large volume of trade, defence cooperations through Joint exercises etc happening.

Aside: One of the previous poster claimed that India attacked China, that is incorrect the armed hostilities were started by China and it was the Chinese who declared a ceasefire unilaterally.

 

[Tango1992]

completely agreed with dragon fire
that is what i was trying to say

@twin blade
i think i mentioned you the news that PAF recently sent a group of represenatives to CAC. They looked at a few designs for their 5th gen, and in general they were pretty satisfied.
it is confirmed by PAF falcons the official PAF news page.
there is no design onscreen for now for J-2x since they just confirmed it.
chinese maybe making the first single engine stealth fighter but not the first single engine jet...
i guess its more easy to make a single engine stealth jet rather than to make a J-20??
Pakistan's president Musharraf was introduced j-10 in 2006 but PAF ordered it in 2008 after sending a huge list of modifications which make china to make it under the name of F-10B or J-10B...

4 qing class submarines and 2 054a ffg frigates:-
In the past it Has been Reported that Pakistan is getting 039 class "Songs" or 041 class Yuan class From china But now reports emerge that it is the latest variant of 041 class named "QING" class submarines for which a deal was inked for 6.

The first Qing class built for Chinese Navy was launched last year and will be going through the sea trial this month 6/2011 which will include the firing of CJ-10K LACms with a range of 1,500 KM.

The deal was signed between Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) and Pakistani Government in April 2011 is for 6 Qing class submarine, These submarines will be double hulled with a submerged displacement of 3,600 tons. It will be equipped with the new Stirling-cycle AIP and will be able to carry upto 3 CJ-10K which could carry nuclear warheds, Other features include hull retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The AIP and the propulsion systems will be all electric and not the diesal electric propulsion system making the submarines very quiet. This propulsion system has already been tested on a number of heavier Chinese submarines.
And In the other development is Pakistan has also signed a deal for a 10 year leaso of 2 Type 054A FFGs. The two ships that Pakistan will receive are serial number 525 and 526 inducted in PLAN in 2005

Pakistan air force had always been conscious about maintenance cost effectiveness thats why they were not so happy to use the twin engine jets like even F-6 and A-5's...they always prefer single engines to make cost effect maintenance.
jf-17 thunder is even more cost effective then a f-16 and comparable to it n bvr engagements.
it can use SD-10A equivalent to aim-120C-5...though they are still working to make its radar better.
jf-17 air frame material is a aluminum alloy and not a very effective material but its just a start for them..
when we made P-59 we were also not perfect but the way now reach us to f-22 today

thunder will serve a very important purpose by giving Pakistan valuable experience in fighter aircraft manufacturing. It will help Pakistan rid itself of dependence on American weapons. It will give the flagging Pakistan Air Force a shot in the arm by beefing up numbers and providing it with decent beyond visual range combat capability. Dismissing it as “worthless” would be nothing short of stupid. My friend and aviation enthusiast Kartik sums it up beautifully: “If the Pakistanis integrate even a medium performance radar and use the SD-10 with it, it is a big threat to the Indian Air Force – just look at the MiG-21 Bison to see what an underestimated fighter can turn out to be. The Sukhoi Su-30K was also found to be a poor aircraft when the IAF first evaluated it, and then after all sweat and toil put into getting its avionics in place and the thrust vector controls, the Su-30MKI is a completely different beast! I somehow fear that the JF-17 shouldn’t prove to be a fighter that makes the Fulcrums, Mirages, Bisons almost on-par or just a little superior. Which is why the IAF needs a true fourth generation fighter to stay ahead – both airframe wise as well as avionics wise.”

being stable at the topic

Pakistan is strategically important for CHINA and you know the reason
and also for USA since we can't leave Afghanistan alone again
and also for ARAB countries because they look towards Pakistan as their only nuclear power arm.

hope that answer the question dear

 

[Beatmaster]

Sorry for the late reaction on a 2 weeks old topic, but after reading this i got a rather offtopic question.
Both pakistan and India aint exactly friends with eachother, granted the past 10 years several serious attempts have been made to increase and heal diplomatic ties but still both nations remain sort of rivals from eachother.
Now with China having a reasonable defense intrest in pakistan and therefor helping pakistan to replace and provide upgrades for their armed forces what does this do for india itself?
Because india is not a weak puppy in the region they have a reasonable good and average hightech army and alot of potential as one of the world economies.
Meaning if the would open the funds available to them then they would be very able to start a massive buildup themselfs.
Now i do understand that Pakistan needs to replace its aging airforces and overall military assets, but does this " buildup" not send a wrong signal to india?
Obviously if pakistan and india would end up in a armed conflict then india seem to have the better cards and if china would have come into play during this conflict then its my personal believe that both pakistan and china would have their hands full with india.
Now with all the new contracts and with all the new toys for pakistan does that not force india to follow suit and turn to their suppliers to match or surpass the pakistany buildup to maintain a status quo between the 2 nations?
And what effect would have it in long and short term relations and regional intrests to all 3 nations?
Another question is what kind of impact would these arms sales have to the relations between US and Paksitan knowing the loads of critical comments made about pakistan by US officals about their involvment in the afganistan war and their rebel problems?
As all the new arms and systems bought by pakistan would raise serious questions i assume.
Just asking and i hope someone could give me a solid reply to this.

Cheers

 

[Kalasag]

Pakistan is still strategically important not just as a political ally of China against to serve in securing the energy interests of China in Africa and the Middle East, also bypassing the sealanes along India, Diego Garcia and the ASEAN countries in case of a war.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Pakistan launches strategic port

 

[AtmacA]

The answer is yes.

The issue is about Afghanistan move,If US want to maintain succesfull operations against al-qeada they need alliance of local governments.Because Nato make air operations in border of Afghan-Pakhi border,Nato needs some formal permission from Pakhi government.

But a bigger question is what US aims in Afghanistan.What US plans the future of region?If the thing were only about hunt down some al-qeada leaders they would easily do it using CIA.A mass NATO operation and permanent bases mean there is a bigger pot in region,we still don't know much about yet.

If NATO is about to leave the area after bin laden has dead(main goal has achieved),pakhi and afghan governments will be primary targets of al-qeada. So pakhistan is not eager to help US to avoid becoming al-qeada target.

So they formed an alliance with China which make things more complicated.We'll see what future will bring to region,hope peace...

 

[Twinblade]

The answer is yes.

The issue is about Afghanistan move,If US want to maintain succesfull operations against al-qeada they need alliance of local governments.Because Nato make air operations in border of Afghan-Pak border,Nato needs some formal permission from Pakhi government.

But a bigger question is what US aims in Afghanistan.What US plans the future of region?If the thing were only about hunt down some al-qeada leaders they would easily do it using CIA.A mass NATO operation and permanent bases mean there is a bigger pot in region,we still don't know much about yet.

If NATO is about to leave the area after bin laden has dead(main goal has achieved),pak and afghan governments will be primary targets of al-qeada. So pakhistan is not eager to help US to avoid becoming al-qeada target.

So they formed an alliance with China which make things more complicated.We'll see what future will bring to region,hope peace...

If political situation with Iran were a little less complicated, Afghanistan might have been in a better state, but as of now they are more dependent on logistics through Russia and Turkmenistan (since Pakistan itself is in turmoil). Afghanistan has abundant mineral resources that it can export to stay alive, maybe with the right support export finished goods and it can be done without depending on Pakistan, albeit at a higher cost.