The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

swerve

Super Moderator
Slight issue, the RN already had Buccaneer? Which already carried a decent ground attack radar. Jaguar M isn't an F4 replacement, and if you take a look at the nose, you'll notice it's barely got room for a laser range finder.

Ian
The Indians modified the Jaguar nose (but only on a small batch) to fit a radar, but it was just an Agave for anti-shipping strike. AFAIK nobody's tried to fit anything bigger, though it's been reported the Indian Jaguar IMs have had the Agave replaced by something newer from Elta.

Agreed in general, though. France considered the Jaguar M purely as an Etendard IV replacement. It was never thought of as suitable for AD. We didn't need a new carrier strike aircraft.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Slight issue, the RN already had Buccaneer? Which already carried a decent ground attack radar. Jaguar M isn't an F4 replacement, and if you take a look at the nose, you'll notice it's barely got room for a laser range finder.

Why on earth would you pass over F4 for an imaginary version of the Jaguar with no air to air capability over and above Harrier? It's just another airframe on the carrier deck and brings nothing new to the fray.

Ian
Nothing imaginary, the Jaguar M flew in 1969 and Jaguars equiped with Agave radar are still flying with the Indian Airforce today. I would hazzard that a number of other radars avaialable in the 60s and 70s could have been comparatively easily integrated with the Jaguar. Ferranti Airpass comes to mind, Blue Fox, (with later retrofit of Blue Vixen), APG-65 was fitted to the AV-8B+ and APG-66 to Skyhawks and Hawk 200s, NASARR R-21G/H as used on the F-104S; all could have been fitted to the Jaguar.

Jaguar M could have flown from any of the RNs five carriers the RN had in the 1960s, the Phantom could not be flown from any of them. Eagle required a new cat to conduct trials of the Phantom but could not operate them, Ark required a three to four year refit and modernisation to be able to take 14 Phantoms to sea.

So lets compare options, 14 Phantoms with Ark, plus another 14 if Eagle was modernised, vs upto 40 Jags on each of Eagle, Ark, Victorious and say 30 on Hermes and Centaur.

I am not arguing that the Jag was a better aircraft than the Phantom, rather that once CVA-01 was axed that something like the Jaguar M could have made the existing carriers viable for longer. Ark could have served into the 80s if she had other ships to share the load.

Now on reflection, would there have been a Falklands War had the RN possessed three to five carriers with 30 to 40 Jaguars each?

Had the RN gone for the Seaharrier on existing hulls Albion and Bulwark could be added to the equassion aswell, more potential platforms but also more likely that Argentina would under estimate the capability of as they did in reallity and gone ahead with the invassion anyway. With the Jaguar option they likely would not have been so sure.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Agave is a very small, light radar, .& didn't exist at the time the decision would have had to be taken. BTW, it could only track a fighter at maybe 15km. The Ferranti Airpass was larger & heavier. The APG-65 also didn't exist at the time, & is twice the weight & size of the Agave, or the EL/M-2032 which Indians say has replaced it in the Jaguar IM.

You see? Apart from the F-104S radar & AI-23, you're proposing technology which didn't exist at the time, & mostly wouldn't fit without a major rebuild of the front of the aircraft - an aircraft which, even without those modifications was, when evaluated, decided to be a poor carrier aircraft. Its landing speed was a problem, for a start, as was thrust for recovering after a bolter. It was a fair bit heavier than the land-based version. Adding a longer nose & radar would have made that worse.

It would also have required a decision to abandon F-4K & adapt Jaguar very early in Jaguar development. It would rightly have been seen as a very high risk decision.

BTW, the landing speed of Jaguar might have been a problem on small carriers.
 

Hambo

New Member
I seriously doubt a 30000t carrier could have successfully operated Phantoms or Buccaneers let alone useful numbers of both.

On the other hand such a ship could have operated 40 or 50 Seaharriers, or Jaguar M. More to the point these aircraft could have operated from the RNs existing carriers in these sort of numbers (less on Hernes of course).

The Jaguar was also more manuvaerable than the Phantom so would have been more useful at low level while Sea Dart was at its best engaging high level targets. Fit an appropriate radar to the Jaguar and Sparrow or Sky Flash would not be out of the question.
30,000 would seem light, though DK Brown mentions 1953 discussions of a cheap 20,000 carrier, but studies showed it was difficult to get below 24,000 tonnes. A 28,000 tonnes ship similar in size to Hermes was proposed but judged a bit too small before a larger 35,000 tonne ship was looked at in 1956, carrying 12 Scimitars, 12 Vixens, 8 Gannets and 9 Buccaneers. The ships then seem to evolve upwards in tonnage. bearing in mind the Arks airgroup was 12 Phantoms and 14 buccaneers, you might be able to squeeze that number on a very basic 30,000 plus ship, depends how bog standard you go.

If the aim is a simple platform to put that airgroup in range of the soviet arctic bases, then perhaps you dont need long endurance and range, you might get away with just rudimentary facilities for the aircraft , carry the helos on the RFA's. Not ideal but if you cant afford the full monty, cheap and cheerful may have worked and kept a modest sized air-group afloat, with no need to develop new aircraft. CVA01 was too ambitious bearing in mind the finances of the time, rather than stubbornly demanding such an expensive ship up there with the USN, the Navy would have been wiser to ask for more modest ones. There would have been a fair chance of getting that home, just enough to operate Phantom, not too big to scare the accountants.
 

1805

New Member
30,000 would seem light, though DK Brown mentions 1953 discussions of a cheap 20,000 carrier, but studies showed it was difficult to get below 24,000 tonnes. A 28,000 tonnes ship similar in size to Hermes was proposed but judged a bit too small before a larger 35,000 tonne ship was looked at in 1956, carrying 12 Scimitars, 12 Vixens, 8 Gannets and 9 Buccaneers. The ships then seem to evolve upwards in tonnage. bearing in mind the Arks airgroup was 12 Phantoms and 14 buccaneers, you might be able to squeeze that number on a very basic 30,000 plus ship, depends how bog standard you go.

If the aim is a simple platform to put that airgroup in range of the soviet arctic bases, then perhaps you dont need long endurance and range, you might get away with just rudimentary facilities for the aircraft , carry the helos on the RFA's. Not ideal but if you cant afford the full monty, cheap and cheerful may have worked and kept a modest sized air-group afloat, with no need to develop new aircraft. CVA01 was too ambitious bearing in mind the finances of the time, rather than stubbornly demanding such an expensive ship up there with the USN, the Navy would have been wiser to ask for more modest ones. There would have been a fair chance of getting that home, just enough to operate Phantom, not too big to scare the accountants.
Which all seems rather to give the game away when the RN was claiming we need 65,000t carriers to have an effective air group of 36-40. It is such a pity no Politicain was clever enough to look up on Wiki the air groups of the CDG or last conventional one for Hermes; they might then have told them to go back and think again at 45,000t.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Which all seems rather to give the game away when the RN was claiming we need 65,000t carriers to have an effective air group of 36-40. It is such a pity no Politicain was clever enough to look up on Wiki the air groups of the CDG or last conventional one for Hermes; they might then have told them to go back and think again at 45,000t.
Oddly, operators of both arrived at figures of 65-70Kt for their replacements.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Oddly, operators of both arrived at figures of 65-70Kt for their replacements.
The French have already concluded CDG is not big enough, hence PA2 is a completely new and larger design notably different from either QE & CDG.

Illustrious is now working up with Apache, I suspect in preparation for replacing Ocean off Libya. Looks like the military is digging in fro the long haul.
 

1805

New Member
Oddly, operators of both arrived at figures of 65-70Kt for their replacements.
Hardly surpising, if you ask a child how much cake it wants it's likely not to be small. The issue is how much is needed and can be afforded.

A few posts ago people were saying a 30,000 tonner was viable, the evidence indicates it was.

The issue is a balance between: operational numbers of hull, hanger/deck capacity and the safely margin for flying operations.

I think on balance that period 1972 - 2007 was better served with 3 x 20,000t and Harriers than it would have been with F4 struggling to operate of elderly carriers. Even if later we had been able to get a few F18 & a single 50,000t ship.

For the present it might have been better to have developed the Harrier a bit further and maintained decent numbers and gone with new build for the next 20 years flying from say 3 x 35-45,000 ships.
 

kev 99

Member
Hardly surpising, if you ask a child how much cake it wants it's likely not to be small. The issue is how much is needed and can be afforded.

A few posts ago people were saying a 30,000 tonner was viable, the evidence indicates it was.

The issue is a balance between: operational numbers of hull, hanger/deck capacity and the safely margin for flying operations.
Even to the point that the child gets no cake? Because that's what happened when the French turned down a second CDG on the basis that it was too small, oddly the design they tried to replace it with would be been larger and cheaper. Interestingly the design that they want for PA2 now is both larger and more expensive.

I think it's fairly obvious that a 30,000 carrier definitely is not viable for an airgroup of 40, the RNs 1970s carriers were all considered deeply unsatisfactory, too small, too cramped and probably extremely unsafe, certainly pretty much every body agrees that CDG isn't big enough and the airgroup of 40 for it only really exists in Wikipedia (especially since the Marine Nationale switched to Rafales).
 

vivtho

New Member
Agave is a very small, light radar, .& didn't exist at the time the decision would have had to be taken. BTW, it could only track a fighter at maybe 15km. The Ferranti Airpass was larger & heavier. The APG-65 also didn't exist at the time, & is twice the weight & size of the Agave, or the EL/M-2032 which Indians say has replaced it in the Jaguar IM.

You see? Apart from the F-104S radar & AI-23, you're proposing technology which didn't exist at the time, & mostly wouldn't fit without a major rebuild of the front of the aircraft - an aircraft which, even without those modifications was, when evaluated, decided to be a poor carrier aircraft. Its landing speed was a problem, for a start, as was thrust for recovering after a bolter. It was a fair bit heavier than the land-based version. Adding a longer nose & radar would have made that worse.

It would also have required a decision to abandon F-4K & adapt Jaguar very early in Jaguar development. It would rightly have been seen as a very high risk decision.

BTW, the landing speed of Jaguar might have been a problem on small carriers.
Do you have any sources about the Jaguar's TO/Landing speeds? I find it surprising that it would be rated worse than Phantoms, which when loaded had the reputation of ground lovers. I'd have thought that with all the wing lift devices the Jag would be better than the Phantom.
 

1805

New Member
Even to the point that the child gets no cake? Because that's what happened when the French turned down a second CDG on the basis that it was too small, oddly the design they tried to replace it with would be been larger and cheaper. Interestingly the design that they want for PA2 now is both larger and more expensive.

I think it's fairly obvious that a 30,000 carrier definitely is not viable for an airgroup of 40, the RNs 1970s carriers were all considered deeply unsatisfactory, too small, too cramped and probably extremely unsafe, certainly pretty much every body agrees that CDG isn't big enough and the airgroup of 40 for it only really exists in Wikipedia (especially since the Marine Nationale switched to Rafales).
Actually I think 30,000t would be to small with cat & traps, how Hermes operated Vixen/Buccs has always amazed me. I actually think Harriers on invincibles/or Centaur class ships would be more effective than F4 on a single Ark to operate in the South Atlantic. The area of superiority of the Ark/F4 is access to AEW & Sparrows, both of which could have been overcome (as they later were). Even the basic FRS1 capability could have been achieved in time to replace the Sea Vixen by 1972-74, if the RAF could get the GR1 in by 1969, saving on the F4 and the need to build 3 Invincibles so close together (the mistake we have paid a very heavy price for with CVF). Additionally it would have been a boost for the UK industry rather than the kick it got from the F4.

But you're quite right the greed of the child has meant we now have two massive cake stands and can afford no cake. The lesson is politicans must have a greater knowledge of the subject matter to control service chiefs, and equally service chiefs need to be incentivised and trained to be more commercial.
 

kev 99

Member
But you're quite right the greed of the child has meant we now have two massive cake stands and can afford no cake. The lesson is politicans must have a greater knowledge of the subject matter to control service chiefs, and equally service chiefs need to be incentivised and trained to be more commercial.
You appear to be agreeing with something I have not said.

In case we're in any doubt about who means what here; I believe 65k tonnes is probably about right for a carrier with an airgroup based around 36 fast jets plus AEW and helos, particularly when it has to find space for hundreds of marines when it's being used as an amphib as well.
 

1805

New Member
You appear to be agreeing with something I have not said.

In case we're in any doubt about who means what here; I believe 65k tonnes is probably about right for a carrier with an airgroup based around 36 fast jets plus AEW and helos, particularly when it has to find space for hundreds of marines when it's being used as an amphib as well.
I was agreeing with your statement about ending up with no cake at all.

I don't have a particular issue with 65k as I think they could have been affordable, if purchase in nearly any other way than we have actually done. I would however see that being a total air group of c60-65. I would not see that air group if it had to take hundreds of marines for a mission, that said if you look at what Hermes had in 1982?

I would rather have 3 carriers of 45-50,000t (still 20% over the CDG). There are many issues with the CDG but mainly they are design and not size issues.
 

kev 99

Member
I was agreeing with your statement about ending up with no cake at all.

I don't have a particular issue with 65k as I think they could have been affordable, if purchase in nearly any other way than we have actually done. I would however see that being a total air group of c60-65. I would not see that air group if it had to take hundreds of marines for a mission, that said if you look at what Hermes had in 1982?

I would rather have 3 carriers of 45-50,000t (still 20% over the CDG). There are many issues with the CDG but mainly they are design and not size issues.
No they are very definitely size issues as well, you cannot get a 40 strong airgroup on that hull now that they have moved over to Rafales, there are reasons that the proposed PA2 is 20k tonnes bigger and has the same (mythical) size airgroup as the CdG.

My comment about cake was that the ship the Marine Navale turned down was the more expensive option than the CVF PA2 which also got canned. They didn't want a second CdG because it wasn't good enough, they choose to go a more sensible and cheaper option, it turned out bad for them in the long run because if they had of opted for a second CdG it would probably be under construction by now.

You're 65 strong airgroup on that hull isn't realistic now even if it has been done before, nobody seems to even consider it an option now, even the USN CVNs are only carrying about 60 aircraft on 90k tonnes.
 

Hambo

New Member
Actually I think 30,000t would be to small with cat & traps, how Hermes operated Vixen/Buccs has always amazed me. I actually think Harriers on invincibles/or Centaur class ships would be more effective than F4 on a single Ark to operate in the South Atlantic. The area of superiority of the Ark/F4 is access to AEW & Sparrows, both of which could have been overcome (as they later were). Even the basic FRS1 capability could have been achieved in time to replace the Sea Vixen by 1972-74, if the RAF could get the GR1 in by 1969, saving on the F4 and the need to build 3 Invincibles so close together (the mistake we have paid a very heavy price for with CVF). Additionally it would have been a boost for the UK industry rather than the kick it got from the F4.

But you're quite right the greed of the child has meant we now have two massive cake stands and can afford no cake. The lesson is politicans must have a greater knowledge of the subject matter to control service chiefs, and equally service chiefs need to be incentivised and trained to be more commercial.
By basic FRS1, I assume you mean no Blue Fox? There isnt much definitive info about that sets history online other than it was a requirement set out in 1975, and trialled in Hunters in 1977 derived from the seaspray . I understand the Pegasus 104 took a while to develop as well. There seems little scope to turbo charge the Shars development bearing in mind it relied on modest development of existing programmes.

Can you demonstrate a clear cost benefit for not building both CVF in the way they are, I assume you mean end to end, dragging out the build? Is that cheaper?
 

1805

New Member
By basic FRS1, I assume you mean no Blue Fox? There isnt much definitive info about that sets history online other than it was a requirement set out in 1975, and trialled in Hunters in 1977 derived from the seaspray . I understand the Pegasus 104 took a while to develop as well. There seems little scope to turbo charge the Shars development bearing in mind it relied on modest development of existing programmes.

Can you demonstrate a clear cost benefit for not building both CVF in the way they are, I assume you mean end to end, dragging out the build? Is that cheaper?
They didn't start the FRS1 until the RAF had GR1 in service, had they started earlier it is probable the Harrier in RN service would likely have had a different radar weapons combination.

Re carrier construction:

1, The USN practice is to build one after the other.
2, This will spread the work out creating a move even flow for the yards
3, You de risk the project by reducing the overal size of the contract
4, You further de risk by creating greater commerical leverage if there are delays
5, You enable opportunities for improvements in the design to be incorporated into later builds
6, But most important you spread the available budget creating head room to make delays in the build programme less likely.
7, You reduce the need to replace at the end of their lives with a mass build programme.

Against:

Some loss of agregation when buying material. In truth as everyone points out the commodity items such as steel are actually cheap. The hi tech kit, engines/radars, when UK manufactured, the biggest issues is continuity of work. This is often not a considerations of the short term sales teams who engage at a senior level of the MOD.
 

Hambo

New Member
They didn't start the FRS1 until the RAF had GR1 in service, had they started earlier it is probable the Harrier in RN service would likely have had a different radar weapons combination.

Re carrier construction:

1, The USN practice is to build one after the other.
2, This will spread the work out creating a move even flow for the yards
3, You de risk the project by reducing the overal size of the contract
4, You further de risk by creating greater commerical leverage if there are delays
5, You enable opportunities for improvements in the design to be incorporated into later builds
6, But most important you spread the available budget creating head room to make delays in the build programme less likely.
7, You reduce the need to replace at the end of their lives with a mass build programme.

Against:

Some loss of agregation when buying material. In truth as everyone points out the commodity items such as steel are actually cheap. The hi tech kit, engines/radars, when UK manufactured, the biggest issues is continuity of work. This is often not a considerations of the short term sales teams who engage at a senior level of the MOD.
Saying FRS1 would likely have a different radar and weapons combo is one thing, but to seriously make the point that Sea Harrier was viable in that period, you need to be able to suggest one that would be suitable. Nothing used in our current fighter would do eg Lightning, Sea Vixen. The US sets were designed for far bigger airframes and the one for the F16 was also into service at the end of the seventies. The RN therefore only had an option to keep the Phantom going , that is as long as it wanted a radar equipped fighter.

The USN of Cold war era had around 13 carriers, more at stages, aren't they down to 10 now? They have a fleet of ships that will end the service life at regular intervals, so of course they will want, and more importantly can afford to build carriers in a different manner than us. I cant see how you can compare the two.

We will have 2 carriers, even had the RN chosen smaller ships, no more than 3. There aren't enough to justify a production line, by the time the second and final ship was finished the first would only be 16 years old, even if you took 8 years to build them, which is painfully slow. The CVF should last 40 years plus.

X number of workers employed for 8 years building 2 carriers will be cheaper in wages alone than keeping the same number of workers in wages for 2 ships over 12 years or longer. It was slowing down the build process that added to the cost of CVF.
 

1805

New Member
Saying FRS1 would likely have a different radar and weapons combo is one thing, but to seriously make the point that Sea Harrier was viable in that period, you need to be able to suggest one that would be suitable. Nothing used in our current fighter would do eg Lightning, Sea Vixen. The US sets were designed for far bigger airframes and the one for the F16 was also into service at the end of the seventies. The RN therefore only had an option to keep the Phantom going , that is as long as it wanted a radar equipped fighter.

The USN of Cold war era had around 13 carriers, more at stages, aren't they down to 10 now? They have a fleet of ships that will end the service life at regular intervals, so of course they will want, and more importantly can afford to build carriers in a different manner than us. I cant see how you can compare the two.

We will have 2 carriers, even had the RN chosen smaller ships, no more than 3. There aren't enough to justify a production line, by the time the second and final ship was finished the first would only be 16 years old, even if you took 8 years to build them, which is painfully slow. The CVF should last 40 years plus.

X number of workers employed for 8 years building 2 carriers will be cheaper in wages alone than keeping the same number of workers in wages for 2 ships over 12 years or longer. It was slowing down the build process that added to the cost of CVF.
I just don't know how you can continue to defend a position against logic and in the back drop of a £10bn bill for 2 carriers we face, which should have cost c£4bn?. You ignore all the other points about budgets/risk mitigation.

I don't see why build in series will require more man hours on construction and even if it did it would be marginal, actually it would be more expensive recruiting up and then making redundant after complete.

3 carriers over say 24 years, followed by or in between 3 Mistral sized ships. All focused on one yard no shipping block about adding to the cost. Keep the other yards busy with a steady flow of frigates/destroyers/subs.

The heavy cost of F4s and the carrier rebuilds would have gone a long way to developing a radar for the Harrier and for that matter an AEW Sea King.

BTW the Spanish also operated 1st generation harriers from 1976 in attack and fighter roles but I think without a radar?
 
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