NZDF General discussion thread

[Cadredave]

Not a dream just a reality check to the government that having a capable defence force requires funding, a properly funded and equipped defence force gives the government options of how to respond to any given problem at the time be it humanitarian or a justification of taking up arms as part of contributing member of the United Nations.

The reality check is that the three services have put there own views or interests ahead of the NZDF as a whole, that has now changed with the three services chiefs appointed by CDF with a slight change to the Defence Act they are accountable to him all three must now decide what is the best way to spend our limited budget. All three are working to a plan called total defence where all capabilities must be locked in & be Joint asserts best used to support each other using the unique capabilities they offer.

That’s true military carriers are not for everyone, but I believe a well equipped and funded NZDF many Kiwis would think twice from crossing the pond and joining the ADF or even the UK forces. Would be interesting to find out just how many Kiwis join a foreign defence force, would they enlist in a larger better equipped defence force out of national pride.

NZDF is well equipped for a force of our size we may be deficient in some areas but we are working to be better. Now as for losing people to other Def Forces how can a Kiwi join the UK Armed Forces when they are going thru a process very similar to what NZDF is going thru but on a larger scale, a bit hard to join the UK Land Forces when there Army is going to slash another 3 Infantry Brigades. People are not leaving the NZDF to join other Nations Forces during a recession our rate of people leaving from all there Services has dropped to the point where recruiting is on hold, not saying its going to stay that way but that what happens during hard times.

RNZAF, unless the government reestablishes the ACF a minimal amount will be need for the Airforce (with extra helicopter’s needed for a LHD if approved) or about 2/300 would be need to reestablish an ACF everything from the pilots down to the aircraft handler’s maintainer’s refueler’s store and EO handlers.
Extra 300 Pers

ACF: Is dead in the water not a priority for the NZDF or Air Force, NZDF is concentrating on those platforms that it has left & its replacements in the very near future in line with the DWP.

RNZN, would need a vast increase in numbers one which I think is achievable, ANZAC class frigate has a crew of approx of a 170, a comparison with a Hobart AWD between 180 with accommodation of up to 234 with 1 extra Frigate you are looking at an extra 200, Endevour has a crew of about 50, Berlin class crew of 140 there an extra 100 or 250 with 2 ships, Canterbury replacement depending on its successor Endurance class LPD has a crew of 65, Canterbury crew of 70 with an enlarged Endurance clas with the same amount of automation let’s say a crew of 100,Dokdo class LHD has a crew of 300 (Canberra LHD 250) with 2 ships we are looking at a max of an extra 535 but with 3 times the capability over Canterbury.
Extra 1000 crew

Navy is the same consolidating what it has now replacing whats needs to be replaced and building capability for a Joint Amphibious manouevre doctrine.

Army RNZA no change just equipment type, Light Infantry Battalion.
Extra 500/600

Army has its plan to restructure from 1 x Cav, 1 x Lt into a 3 Bn Brigade 2 x Lt & 1 x Cav Bn Gp based around a Joint Amphibious manouevre force hand in hand with Navy, other key asserts are in the pipe line but new M777 are not one of them Logistics vehicle are the priority and the standing up of the High Readiness Company.

Overall the NZDF would require an increase of approx 1900 with 10% leeway bring it up to 2090 which would bring the NZDF from a manning level of 9100 to about a force of 11200 over a 10/15 year period, I think it is doable for New Zealand, but getting the government on side is another matter.

Now this is hard to fathom as NZDF has just reroled or axed 1000 members from its ranks, NZDF has to live within its current budget period there is no pot of gold under the rainbow. As a still serving member of the NZDF there is no way I would vote or support a Govt that takes funding from either Education/Health or Emergency Services to give it to NZDF. We have enough NZDF just has to get smarter on how it uses its budget and all three services working together to deliever what Govt asks of us in the purchase agreement.

 

[ADMk2]

Reason I ask is that with the development of various active protection systems coming out and a chinese one that I heard about from a friend in town about one specifically in mind of Javelin, it makes me wonder whats next and what we have to counter it?

I'm sure you blokes could come up with a few 100+ kg IED's if necessary. They haven't built a protection system yet that will stand up to such a huge amount of explosive yet can actually move...

 

[ngatimozart]

An interesting article on medieval armour in DT Heavy metal hardens battle | Army News at DefenseTalk Sure glad I didn't have to wear it. Realise it's way off topic but it does have a kiwi connection because the University of Auckland was involved in the research.

 

[t68]

Now this is hard to fathom as NZDF has just reroled or axed 1000 members from its ranks, NZDF has to live within its current budget period there is no pot of gold under the rainbow. As a still serving member of the NZDF there is no way I would vote or support a Govt that takes funding from either Education/Health or Emergency Services to give it to NZDF. We have enough NZDF just has to get smarter on how it uses its budget and all three services working together to deliever what Govt asks of us in the purchase agreement.

With the current rebuilding of NZ due to the quakes priority should be in the short term to reestablish people who have been left homeless and have to rebuild, as with Australia case we have the flood tax not happy with having to pay another tax but it is a short term solution to our problems, but I believe we should have cut foreign aid to a number of other countries that have larger defence budgets and nuclear weapons and are not as dissevering of aid that subsidies another’s defence force but that’s off topic and not for this forum.

I believe the government gets away the current defence budget is that NZ has no direct threat from anyone, but that does not mean it is not there, as with most people in society is that they have a perception on what is a threat, in most of the general public mind is nation against nation and who has directly threatened New Zealand sovereignty in the past 50 years. Before WW1 and possibly WW2 the mindset of most Australians generally regarded themselves as British with deep historical ties to the mother country, I would imagine this would also be the case in NZ both countries would have felt a deep pride in the military as part of the British Empire, but as society evolved after WW2 and during the cold war the threat of nuclear war kept defence at forefront of people’s minds. Since the fall of communism in 1989 in people minds there has been no direct threat against NZ interest or the thought of global warfare which confronted earlier generations, but NZ has made contribution above its weight over the years in such places in the Sinai, Yugoslavia, East Timor, Solomon’s, Tonga and now Afghanistan which has taken its toll on not only the equipment used by defence but budget

 

[Cadredave]

With the current rebuilding of NZ due to the quakes priority should be in the short term to reestablish people who have been left homeless and have to rebuild, as with Australia case we have the flood tax not happy with having to pay another tax but it is a short term solution to our problems, but I believe we should have cut foreign aid to a number of other countries that have larger defence budgets and nuclear weapons and are not as dissevering of aid that subsidies another’s defence force but that’s off topic and not for this forum.

I believe the government gets away the current defence budget is that NZ has no direct threat from anyone, but that does not mean it is not there, as with most people in society is that they have a perception on what is a threat, in most of the general public mind is nation against nation and who has directly threatened New Zealand sovereignty in the past 50 years. Before WW1 and possibly WW2 the mindset of most Australians generally regarded themselves as British with deep historical ties to the mother country, I would imagine this would also be the case in NZ both countries would have felt a deep pride in the military as part of the British Empire, but as society evolved after WW2 and during the cold war the threat of nuclear war kept defence at forefront of people’s minds. Since the fall of communism in 1989 in people minds there has been no direct threat against NZ interest or the thought of global warfare which confronted earlier generations, but NZ has made contribution above its weight over the years in such places in the Sinai, Yugoslavia, East Timor, Solomon’s, Tonga and now Afghanistan which has taken its toll on not only the equipment used by defence but budget

USMC and USCG have been invited back to NZ by John Key on the news at 6pm, USMC is to Commemorate 70 years ago when they helped to secure this country, hopefully we can exercise together after such along being in the sin bin, boy what a great time to be serving hopefully things are on the way up to full resumption of training activities.:soldier

 

[Hoffy]

Just curious , is this an invitation subject to the disclosure of any nuclear weapons being on board prior to any visit as a prerequisite first?
I assume that the policy is still in place in relation to visits from US warships?
Seems a bit difficult to make an invitation like this unless the policy has changed because the US policy is to never disclose the presence of nuclear weapons , so I'm not sure how this would ever work?

 

[Cadredave]

Just curious , is this an invitation subject to the disclosure of any nuclear weapons being on board prior to any visit as a prerequisite first?
I assume that the policy is still in place in relation to visits from US warships?
Seems a bit difficult to make an invitation like this unless the policy has changed because the US policy is to never disclose the presence of nuclear weapons , so I'm not sure how this would ever work?

That applies to USN only not USCG two different services, baby steps first for this NZ Gov

 

[t68]

I did not know that the USCG came this far south for a training EX or goodwill visit, how often did they come in the past before the bust up?

 

[Hoffy]

That applies to USN only not USCG two different services, baby steps first for this NZ Gov

That's fine , but I'm assuming the US Navy is involved with the transport & logistics side of things? ie; ships?? Sorry I'm referring to the USMC.

 

[ngatimozart]

Just curious , is this an invitation subject to the disclosure of any nuclear weapons being on board prior to any visit as a prerequisite first?
I assume that the policy is still in place in relation to visits from US warships?
Seems a bit difficult to make an invitation like this unless the policy has changed because the US policy is to never disclose the presence of nuclear weapons , so I'm not sure how this would ever work?

The legislation still applies but IIRC the US Navy no longer carries nukes aboard its non capital ships. You must also remember that throughout the 25 year history the US Navy VXE 6 until mid 90's and then US New York Air National Guard have been flying out of Christchurch every summer in support of the National Science Foundation Antarctic Program alongside the RNZAF and Antarctica NZ.

This particular USMC visit is a ceremonial one to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the 1942 arrival of US Marines in NZ during WWII. This is at the invitation of the NZG. We have been working alongside US forces in Afghan since 2001 or 2002, in the Red Sea plus other areas for quite a while. It would be foolish to think that security issues and information would have been completely curtailed between the US & NZ. The echelon facility ran and still is running even though the political climate between us cooled. Remember that it was really only defence and sometimes security related where the problems were. What is put out in the public forum is not what is necessarily always the case. Unfortunately for NZDF Helen Clarke became PM in 1999.

 

[ngatimozart]

That applies to USN only not USCG two different services, baby steps first for this NZ Gov

Actually CD, IIRC the legislation applies to any military service not just a navy & just to split hairs the USMC is part of the USN. By extension you could stretch it paramilitary services and units like the USCG and even civilian ships and aircraft. If some arse warmer in Wellington really wanted to get obnoxious they could ask the NY ANG to certify every time that one of their C17's or C130's flew in and out of ChCh that their was no nuclear weapons, power plants or materials onboard.

 

[recce.k1]

I did not know that the USCG came this far south for a training EX or goodwill visit, how often did they come in the past before the bust up?

Perhaps the likes of Lucasnz and SeaToby could elaborate better on how often in the past etc.

I simply recall USCG would pass thru (various) NZ ports before the "bust-up", to support US Antarctic ops. Don't they work from Hobart now?

Some interesting background reading:
nsf.gov - National Science Foundation (NSF) News - U.S. Antarctic Program - US National Science Foundation (NSF)
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Deep_Freeze"]Operation Deep Freeze - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Operation_Deep_Freeze_retreat_ceremony.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/23/Operation_Deep_Freeze_retreat_ceremony.jpg/220px-Operation_Deep_Freeze_retreat_ceremony.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/2/23/Operation_Deep_Freeze_retreat_ceremony.jpg/220px-Operation_Deep_Freeze_retreat_ceremony.jpg[/ame]

This interesting USCG blog mentions the NZ National Govt wishing to co-operate with USCG in South Pacific etc:
A Call for More Coast Guard in the Pacific - CGBlog.org

(Heh, a commentator there is spewing his guts about the possibility. I wonder if he realises the irony that NZSAS snipers were operating from US Blackhawks a couple of weeks ago taking out insurgents in Kabul (and were involved in another firefight a few days ago)? I'm sure the US Military are very particular about who gets onto their choppers in a war zone, so maybe relations aren't so black and white as he thinks)

Incidentally this local article mentions possible attempts by NZG and USCG to mend fences, but there's still a lot of water to pass under the Pentagon bridge with hardliner sensitivity there, so I wouldn't be suprised if today's announcement by the NZ PM actually comes to naught ..... but who knows. Note that US Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia and the Pacific, Kurt Campbell, alludes to these senstivities below ...
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10739838
Also for reference http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10707891

 

[ngatimozart]

Perhaps the likes of Lucasnz and SeaToby could elaborate better on how often in the past etc.

I simply recall USCG would pass thru (various) NZ ports before the "bust-up", to support US Antarctic ops. Don't they work from Hobart now?

Some interesting background reading:
nsf.gov - National Science Foundation (NSF) News - U.S. Antarctic Program - US National Science Foundation (NSF)
Operation Deep Freeze - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This interesting USCG blog mentions the NZ National Govt wishing to co-operate with USCG in South Pacific etc:
A Call for More Coast Guard in the Pacific - CGBlog.org

(Heh, a commentator there is spewing his guts about the possibility. I wonder if he realises the irony that NZSAS snipers were operating from US Blackhawks a couple of weeks ago taking out insurgents in Kabul (and were involved in another firefight a few days ago)? I'm sure the US Military are very particular about who gets onto their choppers in a war zone, so maybe relations aren't so black and white as he thinks)

Incidentally this local article mentions possible attempts by NZG and USCG to mend fences, but there's still a lot of water to pass under the Pentagon bridge with hardliner sensitivity there, so I wouldn't be suprised if today's announcement by the NZ PM actually comes to naught ..... but who knows. Note that US Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia and the Pacific, Kurt Campbell, alludes to these senstivities below ...
Audrey Young: Visit by US Coast Guard on agenda - Politics - NZ Herald News
Also for reference US extending eye on Pacific to help cut illegal fishing - National - NZ Herald News

According to TV3 news tonight the invite has been accepted. The PM said that no exercises will be undertaken whilst the Marines are in NZ this being a strictly ceremonial visit. He said little steps first.

NZ to thank US marines for WWII effort - Story - National - 3 News

US Marine visit could see Lambton Quay march - Story - Politics - 3 News

 

[recce.k1]

According to TV3 news tonight the invite has been accepted. The PM said that no exercises will be undertaken whilst the Marines are in NZ this being a strictly ceremonial visit. He said little steps first.

NZ to thank US marines for WWII effort - Story - National - 3 News

US Marine visit could see Lambton Quay march - Story - Politics - 3 News

Invite as in USMC (not USCG)? Although a ceremonial USMC visit may seem trivial to our overseas forum friends here, personally I welcome the PM publically stating that NZ wishes to thank the USMC for their WW2 efforts.

One of the ironies of the Clark administration (1999-2008) was she played up NZ identity and the result in terms of the military (history) was the emphasis on NZ's tie in with Europe (the battlefields of WW1 and WW2 etc). But for some reason there was zilch public awareness raised on the US relationship in WW2 (and the more important fact more than anything, the US saved ours (and many other countries) hides. Eat that national identity (in terms of being preserved)!

So better late than never, I'm glad it is being addressed. Small steps indeed, but in the right direction!

 

[Hoffy]

"Up to 45,000 marines based themselves north of Wellington during the war"

So NZ was strategically important during the WWII effort in the Pacific. What a surprise.

The best way of predicting the future is to examine the past.

 

[recce.k1]

"Up to 45,000 marines based themselves north of Wellington during the war"

So NZ was strategically important during the WWII effort in the Pacific. What a surprise.

The best way of predicting the future is to examine the past.

Hoffy, also was the fact that in WW2, 24 RNZAF fighter, bomber & ASW/reconnaisance squadrons saw service in the Pacific (and they fought). Now I suppose we only have one sqn (Orions). The answer to yours and my ruminations is a something beginning with "P" and we cannot go there on this forum - Politics. But feel free to PM me anytime you want to discuss.

Anyway rest assured, the Kapiti & Mana locals (north of Wellington) commemorate the USMC presence in WW2 periodically, their museums sometimes feature exhibitions, but as the passage of time continues the wider (NZ) population forgets.

But it seems this won't be an issue next year for one advantage of being a small country it is very easy to raise national consciousness over this issue (any issue really) and it will make people ponder the past. But whether those "P" people listen is another matter because the bean counters & advisors rule supreme. (Somewhere I have a book on a couple of NZ's top ranking civil servants in the post-war years and boy oh boy were they critical of RNZAF acquiring the Canberra bombers in the 60's ... despite having leased other RAF examples in the 50's and actually using them in anger in SE Asia). Similary the "P" people could have committed the RNZAF Canberras alongside their RAAF counterparts in Vietnam, or the replacement Skyhawks (with the appropriate ECM the Canberras lacked) & actually used them but no. Instead the RNZAF pilots served with the RAAF (and US) operational units but of course the people of NZ don't remember these things when they think of actual aircraft (not) deployed.

 

[ngatimozart]

"Up to 45,000 marines based themselves north of Wellington during the war"

So NZ was strategically important during the WWII effort in the Pacific. What a surprise.

The best way of predicting the future is to examine the past.

Don't be surprised by our seemingly innocuous spatial location nor our honour or bravery. We bled and died in great numbers (ratio of casualties to population) in wars alongside Aussies so remember what the NZ in ANZAC is. Yes the USMC were based on the Kapiti coast and they were our defence whilst the bulk of our army was in the desert fighting the Afrika Korp and Italians and didn't run back home because of the Japanese. We also had a division in the Pacific fighting the Japanese in the Solomons; the 3rd Division - the Forgotten Division. My uncle was in that one and he had a bloody terrible time. I had two uncles in the 2nd Armoured in the desert and Italy. Interestingly enough when some of the 2nd Armoured Division troops came home on leave they had a big fight with the USMC in Wellington. Think it was either Lambton Quay or Featherson St. Being wartime it was hushed up but our troops were not very impressed with the yanks taking our shelias. Those same yanks went onto fight and die in the Pacific at places like Guadalcanal so some of us do like to remember the sacrifice that young fullas from a place far away made. For those Marines it is kia kaha ake ake kia kaha.

 

[t68]

Yes the USMC were based on the Kapiti coast and they were our defence whilst the bulk of our army was in the desert fighting the Afrika Korp and Italians and didn't run back home because of the Japanese..

I am sure that wasn’t meant to be a back handed response to Australia’s situation at the commencement of hostilities in the Pacific, in regards to Churchill’s arrogance towards Australia/New Zealand and the defence of UK at all costs, at the time Australia only had 8 undermanned and under resourced divisions, RAAF had little aircraft capable of defending the north and the RAN had 3 cruisers and 2 destroyers in home waters. Not a force capable of to tackling the IJN sweeping through the Pacific after Pearl Harbour.

 

[Lucasnz]

Interestingly enough when some of the 2nd Armoured Division troops came home on leave they had a big fight with the USMC in Wellington. Think it was either Lambton Quay or Featherson St. Being wartime it was hushed up but our troops were not very impressed with the yanks taking our shelias. Those same yanks went onto fight and die in the Pacific at places like Guadalcanal so some of us do like to remember the sacrifice that young fullas from a place far away made. For those Marines it is kia kaha ake ake kia kaha.

There was a big punch up between the USMC and NZ Army Troops. Some elements have a degree of racism, with Troops from the Southern States apparently the cause, but there are a number of stories on it from what I've read. A good summary here


With regards to the ANZAC Breakup between NZ and the US. I think there is general agreement that of the three services the breakup had a greater operational impact on the navy. Because we will still running Leander class logistics and a lot of the training wasn't an issue because we still got a lot of support via the RN. The greatest impact, based on a Navy order that I saw, was the lost of integration with a USN task force. This resulted in it taking longer to qualify watchkeeping officers due to lack of station keeping time and lead to the introduction of Grade 1-3 qualifications. I think that also helps explain why the RNZN lost so many officers in the 1986-1987 period and as a result the Lake Class Subs (Opps I mean Patrol Craft). There was a USN officer in charge of the DC school in late 1985 but he left shortly afterwards (not sure of the exact date). Also around 86-87 the DC school changed its name from the NBCD school to the DC School.

On the equipment side I seem to recall that defence wanted Stinger missile and had to go for Mistral because we were not classified as Allies.

 

[ngatimozart]

I am sure that wasn’t meant to be a back handed response to Australia’s situation at the commencement of hostilities in the Pacific, in regards to Churchill’s arrogance towards Australia/New Zealand and the defence of UK at all costs, at the time Australia only had 8 undermanned and under resourced divisions, RAAF had little aircraft capable of defending the north and the RAN had 3 cruisers and 2 destroyers in home waters. Not a force capable of to tackling the IJN sweeping through the Pacific after Pearl Harbour.

No mate I didn't mean that as a back handed response. I should have worded it better. Hoffy's attitude just annoyed me. I have nothing but the greatest respect for Australia and Aussies except when it comes to sporting contests between us two.