Brimstone

[wormhole]

Somehow, I still have my doubts that Brimstone would actually have the capability to operate in LOAL mode ie. being launched at a specified geographic area then letting it seek out and attack a valid target. If anyone can find a credible source confirming this, I'd appreciate it (no Wiki pls.)

My understanding is the FCS aboard the launching platform would locate, identify and prioritize multiple targets and cue the Brimstones to specific targets in LOBL mode. Its the human operator who has the final say on which target is attacked.

 

[Todjaeger]

Somehow, I still have my doubts that Brimstone would actually have the capability to operate in LOAL mode ie. being launched at a specified geographic area then letting it seek out and attack a valid target. If anyone can find a credible source confirming this, I'd appreciate it (no Wiki pls.)

My understanding is the FCS aboard the launching platform would locate, identify and prioritize multiple targets and cue the Brimstones to specific targets in LOBL mode. Its the human operator who has the final say on which target is attacked.

The Brimstone is capable of LOAL and has an onboard MMW radar which it allows it to distinguish between valid and non-valid targets. As for a 'valid' source, how does the RAF Brimstone page sound?

-Cheers

 

[Gremlin29]

The Brimstone doesn't operate any differently than the RF Hellfire. Neither of these missiles can actually distinguish friend from foe. Once the missile leaves the launch rail, it is on it's own to do as it sees fit. It is neither guided nor controlled by the launch vehicle. That's why it has a radar transceiver. It can be launched LOAL or LOBL however, it is going to try to LOBL unless it is being fired remotely ie target data is received by another source, presumably a sister ship. LOBL is the optimal launch mode, however LOAL on some systems can provide greater maximum range.

 

[swerve]

Do you have a detailed knowledge of the seekers of both Hellfire & Brimstone? Does Hellfire do what the RAF says Brimstone does?? Everything I've read says that Hellfire uses its radar for guiding itself to preselected targets, not free hunting, & can't reject targets as not valid - i.e.

Hellfire -

The FCR contains an integrated RF interferometer, which locates and classifies any emitter targets and then cues the FCR to the emitter. If it is a moving target or a short-range stationary one, the missile radar acquires the target and Locks On Before Launch (LOBL). In this mode, once launched, the missile's radar updates the missile's guidance system up to target impact. If the target is a long-range stationary one, the missile is launched in the Lock On After Launch (LOAL) mode. In this mode, the missile's inertial guidance steers it in the direction of the target. Once the missile's scanning radar beam acquires the target, the missile locks on and the radar updates the guidance system up to target impact.

Brimstone -

The weapon locks onto a target after launch and is designed for the attack and destruction of armoured targets. Steerable fins guide the missile towards the target with final impact causing a tandem charge warhead to detonate. The first, smaller warhead nullifies reactive armour, allowing the follow-through charge to penetrate the main armour. It is designed to be carried by the Tornado GR4 and Typhoon F2. The weapon can be used in Indirect and Direct modes. For Indirect attack weapons are launched when the targets and their position are not visible to the attacking aircraft. In Direct mode the pilot can use an onboard sighting system to select the target, which can lie off the aircraft's track, so that pilots do not need to manoeuvre to release weapons. The weapon flies at low level, using its onboard navigation systems to head for the target and searching, using its radar, to distinguish between valid and non-valid targets. Brimstone can be programmed to start searching only in target areas, limiting risks to friendly forces.

(Source: RAF)

The RAF info is (perhaps deliberately) incomplete. It doesn't mention, for example, the 'convoy attack' mode, in which several Brimstones will LOAL onto separate vehicles in a group. I think it may work by the missiles only attacking the nth valid target found, where n is their number in the launch sequence, but that's speculation: I'm not aware of any published information.

 

[Gremlin29]

I'm a Longbow pilot.

You can remove the word Brimstone and insert the word Hellfire with the sole exception that as far as I know, Hellfires are not being loaded onto fast movers.

The Hellfire article posted is inaccurate at best. The RFI (is a sensor only) has NO control over the FCR (is a sight and a sensor), it is a seperate and distinctly different system. In fact the Dutch opted out of equipping their AH-64D's with the FCR but chose to keep the RFI (IIRC their RFI is unique to them). The FCR updating the missile after launch is totally wrong. I believe the layman that wrote the article misread the truth. During LOBL the missile will receive continuously updated target data until...... it is launched. In LOAL the missile is given a location to search for a target. That location can be seconds, minutes or even hours old. "Latency" is a buzz word when discussing RF missiles fired in the LOAL mode.

This is why I said earlier that RF missiles are indiscriminate killers. If there's a target in the location they were sent to, it doesnt' distinguish between friend or foe unless of course you LOBL but even then, they can deviate. The sole advantage this system over laser guidance is their ability to cut through obscurations however that said, if you only 3 or 4k visibility your not getting much work done anyway. Just a thought.

 

[Todjaeger]

I'm a Longbow pilot.

You can remove the word Brimstone and insert the word Hellfire with the sole exception that as far as I know, Hellfires are not being loaded onto fast movers.

The Hellfire article posted is inaccurate at best. The RFI (is a sensor only) has NO control over the FCR (is a sight and a sensor), it is a seperate and distinctly different system. In fact the Dutch opted out of equipping their AH-64D's with the FCR but chose to keep the RFI (IIRC their RFI is unique to them). The FCR updating the missile after launch is totally wrong. I believe the layman that wrote the article misread the truth. During LOBL the missile will receive continuously updated target data until...... it is launched. In LOAL the missile is given a location to search for a target. That location can be seconds, minutes or even hours old. "Latency" is a buzz word when discussing RF missiles fired in the LOAL mode.

This is why I said earlier that RF missiles are indiscriminate killers. If there's a target in the location they were sent to, it doesnt' distinguish between friend or foe unless of course you LOBL but even then, they can deviate. The sole advantage this system over laser guidance is their ability to cut through obscurations however that said, if you only 3 or 4k visibility your not getting much work done anyway. Just a thought.

I could be mistaken, but my impression was that the major difference between the Brimstone and Hellfire was the seeker and missile electronics. Can Hellfires be fired in the direction of a vehicle convoy, self-illuminate the convoy to pick out the armoured targets, and then attack them while ignoring 'soft' targets?

I ask because while I am aware of laser and MMW-radar guided Hellfires, none of those I am aware of have their own radar transceiver, nor am I aware of any Hellfire able to independently search and distinguish between different types of targets. As I understood it, a Hellfire could be fired into the vicinity of a target, which could then be illuminated/lased, with the Hellfire then detecting which target is illuminated/lased and engaging it.

A Brimstone OTOH could be fired into the vicinity of a target(s) and require no further outside illumination since the onboard missile systems can scan the vicinity for targets, determine which one(s) is valid, and then illuminate it until the Brimstone strikes.

If the Hellfire seeker already does everything which the Brimstone seeker does, it would not have made any sense for the Brimstone seeker to be developed, unless the Hellfire seeker which has that capability was developed after the Brimstone. Otherwise the two missiles are basically the same, with Brimstone using a casing and motor developed from the Hellfire, and a Hellfire HEAT warhead instead of some of the newer blast-frag warheads.

-Cheers

 

[swerve]

I'm a Longbow pilot.

You can remove the word Brimstone and insert the word Hellfire with the sole exception that as far as I know, Hellfires are not being loaded onto fast movers.

The Hellfire article posted is inaccurate at best. The RFI (is a sensor only) has NO control over the FCR (is a sight and a sensor), it is a seperate and distinctly different system. In fact the Dutch opted out of equipping their AH-64D's with the FCR but chose to keep the RFI (IIRC their RFI is unique to them). The FCR updating the missile after launch is totally wrong. I believe the layman that wrote the article misread the truth. During LOBL the missile will receive continuously updated target data until...... it is launched. In LOAL the missile is given a location to search for a target. That location can be seconds, minutes or even hours old. "Latency" is a buzz word when discussing RF missiles fired in the LOAL mode.

This is why I said earlier that RF missiles are indiscriminate killers. If there's a target in the location they were sent to, it doesnt' distinguish between friend or foe unless of course you LOBL but even then, they can deviate. The sole advantage this system over laser guidance is their ability to cut through obscurations however that said, if you only 3 or 4k visibility your not getting much work done anyway. Just a thought.

Thank you for the correction re Hellfire LOBL.

I see that everything you say refers to Hellfire, not Brimstone. Clearly you know exactly what Hellfire does, but you've not said anything to suggest that you have any special knowledge about Brimstone. You've been presented with characteristics of Brimstone which differ from what you've described, but have not responded to them, e.g the valid/not valid target selection, the restricted target area, the convoy attack mode. Would you please comment on whether Hellfire has those abilities? Also, does it self-destruct if it does not find a valid target?

BTW, I understood that the externally similar but structurally different Brimstone airframe (as offered by Boeing for the JAGM) was developed because Hellfire is "not being loaded onto fast movers" due to its airframe being unsuitable. As with the seeker, why go to the trouble & expense of developing it, if Hellfire could already do exactly the same?

 

[Gremlin29]

Todjaeger, the RF Hellfire has always had it's own transceiver, and has never been guided by the FCR post launch phase. Once it leaves the rail, it is on its own.

Swerve, the valid/not valid, restricted target area etc "can be programmed into the missile" and that's straight from Boeing's website. The missile is programmed by the fire control system, the programming is not in the missile itself. And yes, Hellfire does all of these things when launched from the Longbow, albeit different terminology is used. I was incorrect in my earlier statement saying the Hellfire did everything you had listed, it does not have an autodestruction sequence, other than hitting terra firma at a very high speed.

Brimstone was developed to be put on fast movers because the Hellfire can't be. As for my actual knowledge about this missile, it is limited by what the Boeing armament tech rep was able to tell me yesterday. That's as close to "from the horses mouth" I can actually get.

 

[JWCook]

As I understand it to say Brimestone is a Hellfire is stretching a point.

One of the design team mentions about the only thing the same were some screws. (I know there would be more than screws but it does point to a more radical redisgn of the missile than one would think.)

Interesting Brimstome pdf here..
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006psa_apr/mulholland.pdf

Interesting Hellfire text here..

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/docs/1helfire.pdf
Cheers

 

[Gremlin29]

JWCook, we are comparing the RF Hellfire (which has a radar guided seeker versus the SAL Hellfire which is a laser guided seeker) to the Brimstone. The Hellfire article you posted is specific to the SAL missile and doesn't even mention the RF missile which has been in use since Longbows were fielded. The Hellfire is a Lock/Mart product, the Brimstone is Boeings. I'm not saying they are the same, but they do work virtually the same way.

 

[Todjaeger]

Todjaeger, the RF Hellfire has always had it's own transceiver, and has never been guided by the FCR post launch phase. Once it leaves the rail, it is on its own.

I double checked Boeing's Brimstone page to confirm, and the Brimstone is described as...

an autonomous air-to-surface missile that independently locates, tracks and engages fixed and moving targets day or night in any weather.

Which is where I have a question regarding the Hellfire... I was under the impression that even the RF/MMW-guided Hellfires were not/are not autonomous and the the RF-Hellfire was only able to receive MMW radar returns, but not emit them from the missile. From what you seem to be saying, the RF-Hellfires both emit and receive radar signals from the missiles themselves, as opposed to MMW radar emissions from coming from the mast-mounted radar of something like an Apache. Hence my confusion.

-Cheers

 

[SpudmanWP]

If it needed to have returns from the FCR, then it would not be classified as a"fire and forget" missile, which it is.

 

[Todjaeger]

If it needed to have returns from the FCR, then it would not be classified as a"fire and forget" missile, which it is.

Which missile are you referring to, Brimstone or Hellfire?

 

[StobieWan]

Which missile are you referring to, Brimstone or Hellfire?

Both are available with an active MMR seeker as far as I understand it.

Ian

 

[JWCook]

JWCook, we are comparing the RF Hellfire (which has a radar guided seeker versus the SAL Hellfire which is a laser guided seeker) to the Brimstone. The Hellfire article you posted is specific to the SAL missile and doesn't even mention the RF missile which has been in use since Longbows were fielded. The Hellfire is a Lock/Mart product, the Brimstone is Boeings. I'm not saying they are the same, but they do work virtually the same way.

Oops OK no worries, From what I heard the dual mode brimstone is a good peice of kit, the future varients proposed include small watercraft thats pretty good discrimination in the clutter.

cheers

 

[swerve]

...
Swerve, the valid/not valid, restricted target area etc "can be programmed into the missile" and that's straight from Boeing's website. The missile is programmed by the fire control system, the programming is not in the missile itself. And yes, Hellfire does all of these things when launched from the Longbow, albeit different terminology is used.....

I'm afraid that you're now contradicting your earlier argument that RF missiles are indiscriminate. You're now claiming that Hellfire can be limited to particular types of target, targets within a specified area, & targets selected so as not to hit the same target with more than one missile. That's not indiscriminate.

Having spent most of the last 30 years working in software development, I'm very aware of the difference between 'programmed in', as in given a set of parameters, & 'programmed in', as in having the ability to perform certain types of processing.

AFAIK nobody installs new software (the second type of 'programmed in') on missiles in the air. I think that's done on the ground, with the missile disarmed, & tests are run to check that the software is operating correctly before anyone thinks about loading it onto an aircraft & taking off with it.

What is referred to in this case is the fire control system of an aircraft giving Brimstone a set of parameters, e.g. the definition of a target area, or a set of valid target types. In order to be able to use these parameters, the missile needs to have the right hardware & software permanently installed. It's a bit like you 'programming in' a URL to your phone: the phone has to have the ability to connect to the web to use it.

The argument here is that Brimstone has the necessary hardware & software. You are now saying that apart from the self-destruct mode, Hellfire has hardware & software with the same abilities, despite previously describing it in terms which suggested it does not. There's also a lack of any mention in any of the public information of such abilities.

Let us consider one of these cases, the valid target set. For Brimstone, we're not talking about an Apache with a Longbow radar identifying a target as valid & giving the missile the coordinates of the target, we're talking of the missile, on its own, comparing the signature of a target (which the launch aircraft may never have seen, let alone identified) with a list of valid targets it was given before launch ('programmed in') & deciding whether it matches any of them. Is that what Hellfire does? Or does it rely on the Apache to decide whether a specific target is valid?

 

[Waylander]

I still don't get how a laser guided Brimstone is going to enable the fast mover to attack the same number of targets in a single attack run like a dozen+ MMW Brimstones. As I understand it, and please correct me on this, an Apache riple fires it's Hellfire Is and then switches fast from one target to the next with his laser designator so that every missile hit's another target.

Is this even possible with a fast mover? I would think this is rather hard to manage with a Sniper/Litening-Pod, apart from the fast mover not having the luxury of using tree lines and such for cover.

And that's were a MMW Brimstone should excell. For example in a Korean War gone hot scenario South Korean recce assets track an armoured NK Armour BN on the way to the frontlines. A flight of F-15/16 is directed to them for interdiction. They make one attack run each with 12+ Brimstones. By doing this they are less exposed to enemy AA-assets and are faster done with their mission ie sooner ready for a new sortie.

You wouldn't do this while both sides are in an infight with armoured vehicles but for most interdiction missions it should work just fine.

And somebody who expects alot of enemy vehicles to kill needs many missiles. Thus a cheaper MMW only Brimstone may come in handy for budget reasons.

 

[Gremlin29]

Waylander, very well said.

Swerve: It is indiscriminite because you can't guarantee non targets wont present the same return as the target. Furthermore, if this missile could differentiate between a Challenger and a T-72, Boeing would be bragging about it big time. The missile is going to search for a tank for example. In reallity, it is searching for a radar return that it thinks is a tank. It doesn't care if it is a tank, or whom the tank belongs to. That is indiscriminte as far as a trigger puller is concerned. In a deep strike mission this ambiguouty isn't such a problem and the prorverbial ripple fire on massed enemy formations is a practical application. As far programning the Brimstone, I don't know for certainty how this is accomplished however many components on my aircraft have a user data module that provides particular parameters for said component and I wont say more than this. So yeah I used improper verbiage, the pilots selections would be "handed off" to the launcher and then, to the missile.

Regarding safe zones: It's only a safe zone in so far as missiles will avoid it. Unfortunately the troops on the ground dont know there's a safe zone, nor are they constrained to say inside of it, been there done that.

The main difference (besides one marketed for fast movers) between the 2 systems is how they are employed. The Brimstone is using it's seeker as an aqcuistion and sigting system, and it's launcher to provide targeting data interface to the pilot who then makes final selections which are then processed through the launcher and handed to the missile. The RF Hellfire can do the same thing. If it couldn't, I wouldn't be able to fire them from a non-FCR equipped aircraft autonomously which is not only possible, it is a required gunnery task. And yes, this includes up to 8 safe zones which can be created by the pilot in a matter of seconds. Why bother with the FCR? It does much more than provide target date to a missile, provides and provides a much wider search area.

 

[wormhole]

The Brimstone is capable of LOAL and has an onboard MMW radar which it allows it to distinguish between valid and non-valid targets. As for a 'valid' source, how does the RAF Brimstone page sound?

-Cheers

Thanks for the reference..