justsomeaussie
Member
Are you questioning the requiredments to have a light armoured vehicle at all? Or that the Hawkei is just another flawed product propped up by the Australian governmentm, or maybe something else?
Well the Australian industry content (AIC) element of the PMV-L competition is a spend of a lot of money now and potentially a lot more if an “Australian” solution is acquired over a baseline for the capability entirely because of Government intervention. The original plan for the PMV-L was just to piggy back on the JLTV with the USA bearing most of the costs and the production in service vehicle being able to leverage the huge American scales for significantly lower sustainment cost. This low cost approach being brought about by the SRP – Government insisting Defence save money – and fears of lower revenues in the near/far future thanks to the ageing population, mining the last Pilbara megaton, etc.
Now despite all this and the then Minister of Defence (Fitzgibbon) being very happy with the JLTV low cost approach - and somewhat delusional about AIC being injected into JLTV a la JSF - other forces within the then Rudd Government insisted on an "Australian" alternative. To make it more ‘competitive’ a 50% AIC level was allowed and the Army insisted on JLTV levels of performance. All of which resulted in the only true AIC program, at 80%, the all steel monocoque hull PTS Protector 2 being ruled out at RFP. So we now have three international PMV-Ls (Swiss, British and Israeli) being developed at the expense of Australia for a unique, high cost solution, in competition with the mass production, low cost JLTV.
It’s all pretty ridiculous considering Project Overlander could have just ordered the Mowag Eagle for the protected light and lightweight vehicles back at the same time they ordered the Mercedes G-Wagen for the unprotected. They would be entering service now, be built in the main in Australia (in Adelaide by GDLS with steel armour work sub-contracted to Thales in Bendigo as per the ASLAV) and providing the kind of low cost, high protection everyone wants without stuffing around for 5-10 years before anything is delivered to the field Army.
Now despite all this and the then Minister of Defence (Fitzgibbon) being very happy with the JLTV low cost approach - and somewhat delusional about AIC being injected into JLTV a la JSF - other forces within the then Rudd Government insisted on an "Australian" alternative. To make it more ‘competitive’ a 50% AIC level was allowed and the Army insisted on JLTV levels of performance. All of which resulted in the only true AIC program, at 80%, the all steel monocoque hull PTS Protector 2 being ruled out at RFP. So we now have three international PMV-Ls (Swiss, British and Israeli) being developed at the expense of Australia for a unique, high cost solution, in competition with the mass production, low cost JLTV.
It’s all pretty ridiculous considering Project Overlander could have just ordered the Mowag Eagle for the protected light and lightweight vehicles back at the same time they ordered the Mercedes G-Wagen for the unprotected. They would be entering service now, be built in the main in Australia (in Adelaide by GDLS with steel armour work sub-contracted to Thales in Bendigo as per the ASLAV) and providing the kind of low cost, high protection everyone wants without stuffing around for 5-10 years before anything is delivered to the field Army.
I'm questioning the merits of that particular vehicle against what our requirements are.
also. its not propped up by Govt, its a private factory initiative. its come about under the same flawed philosophy that DSTO of old used to do, build what they think is a good idea and then try and flog it off to a customer - and without building and developing a proper set of requirements.
Come on Abe that would be common sense, just like using the old Mitsubishi site to assemble, then provide depot level maintenance, for all the LAND 400 vehicles. Existing work force, main transport hub and all the required supporting industries, perfect sense so no way on the face of the planet it will / could happen.
bulletproofvest
New Member
School project help 
Hey guys. I'm new here so don't go ape if I do anything wrong for now
I'm 'bulletproofvest'. First of all I'd like to say hi. Hi.
I'm an Australian army cadet in woodside.
I'm doing an assignment for school and just have a couple of questions. I worked out this would be the best place to ask as you people know all this. Before you ask, yes I have Googled all of this and it turned out with little or no information.
Anyway here goes:
1. When do soldiers get holidays?
2. How long does a soldier normally stay in Afghanistan for?
How would a civilian join the army? What are the steps? What is the training?
That's all. Thanks guys:
Hey guys. I'm new here so don't go ape if I do anything wrong for now
I'm 'bulletproofvest'. First of all I'd like to say hi. Hi.
I'm an Australian army cadet in woodside.
I'm doing an assignment for school and just have a couple of questions. I worked out this would be the best place to ask as you people know all this. Before you ask, yes I have Googled all of this and it turned out with little or no information.
Anyway here goes:
1. When do soldiers get holidays?
2. How long does a soldier normally stay in Afghanistan for?
How would a civilian join the army? What are the steps? What is the training?
That's all. Thanks guys
:1. Block recreational leave over the Christmas/New Year period.Hey guys. I'm new here so don't go ape if I do anything wrong for now
I'm 'bulletproofvest'. First of all I'd like to say hi. Hi.
I'm an Australian army cadet in woodside.
I'm doing an assignment for school and just have a couple of questions. I worked out this would be the best place to ask as you people know all this. Before you ask, yes I have Googled all of this and it turned out with little or no information.
Anyway here goes:
1. When do soldiers get holidays?
2. How long does a soldier normally stay in Afghanistan for?
How would a civilian join the army? What are the steps? What is the training?
That's all. Thanks guys
2. The entire deployment...
(8 months usually). A civilian joins the ADF through Defence Force recruiting, www.defencejobs.gov.au will show you the remainder of the steps.
As a quick heads up, you'll do basic training and then initial employment training (or it's service equivalent) before being posted to a unit.
Mod edit: merged for a bit of a thread clean-up...
bulletproofvest
New Member
Cheers mate
Actually, not too bad. From what I've seen and heard, one of the JLTV prototypes is absolute rubbish, and the Hawkei is competitive with the others. However, where the Hawkei can't compare is economies of scale. In that regard it can never be competitive.
justsomeaussie
Member
Is it correct that the yanks were using a lower level of STANAG for the JLTVs that the rest of the world were using? JLTV's seem to be turning into a never ending replica of the JSF.
From the Herald Sun..
"THE SAS Regiment will finally take delivery of 31 new $80 million Nary patrol vehicles, known as Jackals, this month - more than three years later than planned.
"Army is now considering how to use the vehicles," a well-placed source said.
The world's most expensive four-man army vehicle was named in honour of SAS Warrant Officer and vehicle specialist David Nary, who died in a training accident in Kuwait in 2005."
I doubt if they have got the price right.
"THE SAS Regiment will finally take delivery of 31 new $80 million Nary patrol vehicles, known as Jackals, this month - more than three years later than planned.
"Army is now considering how to use the vehicles," a well-placed source said.
The world's most expensive four-man army vehicle was named in honour of SAS Warrant Officer and vehicle specialist David Nary, who died in a training accident in Kuwait in 2005."
I doubt if they have got the price right.
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$2.5bn for 31 vehicles does seem somewhat excessive.....
I am guessing the $80m is the total cost, not the individual cost. That makes them a little over $2.5m each
Also aren't many tanks, self propelled artillery and air defence vehicles "four man Army vehicles"? In which case using the Herald Sun's program unit cost metric would make most of them far more expensive than the Nary. Like the Army's M1A1 AIM tanks which would come in at around $10 million each as a deliverables divided by gross program cost metric. Of course the actual cost of the Nary vehicle, its armour, engine, etc is a very, very small fraction of that $80m cost.
Its not excessive when you consider what they're fitted out with. they're certainly hooked up
most of the article is just inane rubbish.
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
Wait you're saying that a single Nary (Supacat right?) is worth as much as an F-18F and about the same as three ACPB's?
Or is that the cost of the Vehicles, plus support for x years, plus who knows how much equipment that the SASR may have had procured as part of the same program?
its through life support as well as the fitout.
Narys are more than gun buggies. the problem is that the other gear is not visible, not sexy and generally the least understood.
eg these things are way wired up more than a $1m bushmaster
No one is saying that. Just an idiot sub-editor of a newspaper cut a word or two out of an article so it looks as if they are saying each vehicle is worth $80m. The entire Land Mobility element of JP 2097 Phase 1B costs $80m which is supplying 30 or so Supacat HMT vehicles kitted out as SOVs with remote control weapon stations (each of which costs half a mil) and all sorts of SOF gear (CIED, CNR, etc). The entire JP 2097 project which also includes a seperate Networked Special Operations Capability (NSOC) which is three battalions (equiv) worth of gear comes in at under $300m including the Nary SOVs and more vehicles.
The Nary SOV has had its troubles that represent all that's wrong with Australian defence procurement but they don't cost an extra ordinary amount of dollars compared to their peers around the world. Also the kind of capability-cost they represent is a bargin.
Govt accused of interfering in Defence tender process - National News - National - General - The Canberra Times
If true, this sounds particularly shady. I'm always a little suspicious of reports like this in the press, but it does not sound good.
Another source:
Tender is the might as key Defence deal feels the heat | smh.com.au
So the Merc has an edge in quality, and MAN in price. Is the Bushmaster ute really as overpriced (and inferior) as these reports make it seem?
justsomeaussie
Member
I haven't heard of any significant issues with Bushmasters rolling over so it would amaze me how the ute variant could since it lacks the entire top half including cupolas and mounts.
I think this article is a bit of a beat up. Sure Thales do make expensive products but there something to be said about making and maintaining your own equipment. The BM has proven itself in Afghanistan can anyone enlighten me to the operational performance of the competitor bids?
Once you start factoring in the PICs and SICs having both the BM PMV and Ute maintained over the entire life span by the same company surely there must be some significant savings to be made.