The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Bonza]

I had the impression there'd have to be quite a lot of changes to upgun to 155mm for RN warships, as the existing arty ammunition is charge and projectile loaded separately while 4.5 inch ammunition is fixed - wouldn't this mean substantial changes to ammunition handling procedures and equipment onboard? Perhaps it's not seen as particularly attractive given the development potential of expanded capability ammunition for more conventional naval guns.

I'm not really sure of what the work would involve or how much it would cost, I'm just wondering how much of a factor such a consideration could be.

 

[StevoJH]

I wonder if they could accomodate 2 Merlin. The are c21m beam and the RCN Tribals are 15m and can carry 2 Sea King.

The Iroquois class have a full width Hanger, the Daring doesnt, fairly sure the bays for the RHIB's cut into the hanger width.

 

[riksavage]

Wouldn't MICA with an IR seeker be more effective?



I always wondered why the Daring class didn't have a CIWS for insurance, but know it does. Curious as to which would be more effective in dealing with supersonic missiles, Phalanx or RAM?

With Aster 15 & 30, why fit RAM, better off having a CIWS gun system, more economical way of dealing with littoral threats (fast attack boats etc.). Mix and match missiles with good old fashioned guns, bullets are cheap.

Daring fitted with Phalanx probably means she is due for her first operational deployment once firing trials are complete - South Atlantic, Libya, Gulf? Or maybe an East of Suez fly the flag look at me tour?

There should be enough upgraded Phalanx around to install aboard the other two.

 

[kev 99]

With Aster 15 & 30, why fit RAM, better off having a CIWS gun system, more economical way of dealing with littoral threats (fast attack boats etc.). Mix and match missiles with good old fashioned guns, bullets are cheap.

Daring fitted with Phalanx probably means she is due for her first operational deployment once firing trials are complete - South Atlantic, Libya, Gulf? Or maybe an East of Suez fly the flag look at me tour?

There should be enough upgraded Phalanx around to install aboard the other two.

The article System Addict linked to includes this tidbit:

Once FRUKUS is completed, Dauntless will move on to carry out hot weather trials – particularly pertinent as the first Type 45 is due to deploy east of Suez in the near future.

 

[riksavage]

The article System Addict linked to includes this tidbit:

Dauntless must be scheduled for a Phalanx fit-out before she deploys East of Suez. I've yet to see or hear of a single RN surface combatant or RFA (bar MCM), which has deployed East of Suez without CIWS.

 

[kev 99]

Dauntless must be scheduled for a Phalanx fit-out before she deploys East of Suez. I've yet to see or hear of a single RN surface combatant or RFA (bar MCM), which has deployed East of Suez without CIWS.

It doesn't say that it's Dauntless deploying, I think it's referring to Dairing.

 

[Systems Adict]

It doesn't say that it's Dauntless deploying, I think it's referring to Daring.

I think it's referring to Daring too. After all she did her trip to the US /warm-ish weather trials last year & as you say, no ship goes east of Suez without it.

...But, I could be wrong....

SA

 

[Anixtu]

I've yet to see or hear of a single RN surface combatant or RFA (bar MCM), which has deployed East of Suez without CIWS.

This year, RFA Argus.

Over what timescale? It's only been fitted to any of the RFA units apart from new Forts since last year.

 

[Systems Adict]

I had the impression there'd have to be quite a lot of changes to upgun to 155mm for RN warships, as the existing arty ammunition is charge and projectile loaded separately while 4.5 inch ammunition is fixed - wouldn't this mean substantial changes to ammunition handling procedures and equipment onboard? Perhaps it's not seen as particularly attractive given the development potential of expanded capability ammunition for more conventional naval guns.

I'm not really sure of what the work would involve or how much it would cost, I'm just wondering how much of a factor such a consideration could be.

Hmmm....

I know that I work in the industry at the 'coalface', but I would say that from my trawlling of 't'internet', THAT job is a 'Mid-life update' sorta task. To up-gun a ship, or even change from something like a 57mm to a 76mm pretty much means a complete strip/gut & rebuild of the internals of the ship, forward of any silo / bridge screen.

As a 'rough-list', you'd need to add in additional deck strengthening, & the support ribs down the side of the hull would probably be replaced. All your power supplies would have to be uprated, along with all the pipework for things like Spray systems / fire fighting / cooling, etc. Ventilation would have to be uprated. A new hoist for transfer of ammo & shells, new storage racks & ancillary equipment to move shells about, would all have to be sourced, fitted & tested.

Work like that probably needs the ship dry docked & could take up to a year / 18 months (like most refits), & to qualify that it would take that long, because of all the OTHER work that would be getting done in paralell. Then on the back of it, your ship is going to be heavier, so it'll go slower & once the work is completed, you will also have to undertake a batch of sea-trials for testing, to work out all the niggles. Rough order of cost is gonna come in at something like 100 - 150M per ship for something like a T-45 (Note: These 'ideas' are all from MY thoughts/opinions, nothing else...... I don't think anyone has done a proper feasibility study on it !!)

The 155mm / 5" / 6" guns that are available are all AFAIK, 'double-stroke' (i.e. separate ammo & shell). Shells & propellant have to be stored separately & in comparrison to 4.5" only have about 1/2 to 2/3rds the fire rate. Also being a bigger shell mean things like additional heat is generated, which in turn slows the rate of fire, so over time you may get 'X' RPM for the 1st minute, but then you may have to slow to 'X' minus 1/4 or 'X' minus 1/2, so that the rounds go off when you want them to & not as soon as they enter the breech, due to 'hot-gun' symptoms !

But we digress....

SA

 

[Bonza]

SA,

Thanks very much for the response, I appreciate the detail and the estimate as to the effort involved. Cheers.

 

[STURM]

With Aster 15 & 30, why fit RAM, better off having a CIWS gun system, more economical way of dealing with littoral threats (fast attack boats etc.). Mix and match missiles with good old fashioned guns, bullets are cheap.

The Darings already have 2 30mm guns which would be more useful than Phalanx in dealing with littoral threats. The Phalanx is probably for use against threats like missiles and aircraft.

The Korean KDXs, Bundesmarine Sachsens and Brandenburgs, and USN Burkes all have a VLS but still have a RAM to deal with leakers. I suppose it all boils down to affordability.

 

[riksavage]

The Darings already have 2 30mm guns which would be more useful than Phalanx in dealing with littoral threats. The Phalanx is probably for use against threats like missiles and aircraft.

The Korean KDXs, Bundesmarine Sachsens and Brandenburgs, and USN Burkes all have a VLS but still have a RAM to deal with leakers. I suppose it all boils down to affordability.

If you have spare Phalanx use it, it was designed to deal with 'leakers', which considering PAAMS technology should hopefully be few and far between. Why then waste money on yet another new system when the RN has other priorities, unless that is the latest Phalanx upgrade is considered obsolete, which last time I read it wasn't.

Also you advocate having three types of missile aboard a T45 to deal with a threat, which hasn't materialised (sea skimmers) in I don't know how long (1991?) and yet leave a twin set of 30mms to deal with swarm attacks by fast attack boats, a scenario already advocated by the likes of Iran and other less sophisticated foes operating out of Yemen and Somalia.

What would you recommend in an environment such as Libya where you vessel could be in harbour supporting ground operations and suffer an attack by land based RPG's or mortar fire, wouldn't Phalanx offer a better solution that RAM? Plus Phalanx can be dismounted and used to protect ground installations (when the vessel is in extended refit) as witnessed in Afghanistan.

With CAMM in the pipeline RAM is not an option for the RN

 

[Seaforth]

If you have spare Phalanx use it, it was designed to deal with 'leakers', which considering PAAMS technology should hopefully be few and far between. Why waste money on yet another new system when the RN has other priorities, unless that is Phalanx is considered obsolete, which last time I read it wasn't.

Phalanx is probably more durable a design than a missile system. The mechanical half of Phalanx - the mounting, cannons and shells - could endure as a practical design for many decades.

 

[mrgeorgeallison]

Found this little gem regarding aircraft operating from the QE class. Looks like COD aircraft are a possibility.

--------------------------------------------------------

Angus Robertson (Moray, Scottish National Party)
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers are designed to allow for the operation of fixed-wing carrier on-board delivery aircraft.

Peter Luff (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Defence Equipment, Support and Technology), Defence; Mid Worcestershire, Conservative)
The Queen Elizabeth (QE) class aircraft carriers are optimised around an air group consisting of the Joint Strike Fighter and Merlin helicopter, with a number of other aircraft designated as ‘secondary aircraft’ which could be operated from the carrier—but with varying degrees of operational limitation.
Following the decision to convert at least one of the carriers to carry the more capable carrier variant of the Joint Strike Fighter, the list of secondary aircraft is being updated to reflect the change in aircraft launch and recovery equipment. While some fixed-wing aircraft are included within this list, we have not yet made any decisions as to whether there is a requirement for a specific onboard delivery aircraft, and if so, which aircraft or helicopter would undertake such a role.

 

[riksavage]

Found this little gem regarding aircraft operating from the QE class. Looks like COD aircraft are a possibility.

--------------------------------------------------------

Angus Robertson (Moray, Scottish National Party)
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers are designed to allow for the operation of fixed-wing carrier on-board delivery aircraft.

Peter Luff (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Defence Equipment, Support and Technology), Defence; Mid Worcestershire, Conservative)
The Queen Elizabeth (QE) class aircraft carriers are optimised around an air group consisting of the Joint Strike Fighter and Merlin helicopter, with a number of other aircraft designated as ‘secondary aircraft’ which could be operated from the carrier—but with varying degrees of operational limitation.
Following the decision to convert at least one of the carriers to carry the more capable carrier variant of the Joint Strike Fighter, the list of secondary aircraft is being updated to reflect the change in aircraft launch and recovery equipment. While some fixed-wing aircraft are included within this list, we have not yet made any decisions as to whether there is a requirement for a specific onboard delivery aircraft, and if so, which aircraft or helicopter would undertake such a role.

What do the French use? I can't see the RN buying a specifc airframe, couldn't they make use of a Chinook fitted with the larger fuel tanks and a refueling probe? Spend any spare cash on MASC, specialised COD is a luxuary the RN can't afford.

Wost case scenario over long distances, do what they did with the replacement CO of 2 Para in 82, make him jump into the sea and pick him up by rib. For mail drops you could water proof the bundle and airdrop the package or have it delivered to the nearest friendly port by air for pick-up via Merlin.

 

[STURM]

With CAMM in the pipeline RAM is not an option for the RN

I wasn't suggesting the RN fit RAM on its Darings. As the RN already has Phalanx, it makes perfect sense to use it. I was merely suggesting that RAM, Phalanx and the 30mm guns, all have their merits against different kinds of threats.

 

[swerve]

Wouldn't MICA with an IR seeker be more effective?

Perhaps. But I think MICA would need modified fins to quad pack in a Sylver, & that would take money & time. MBDA might well be able to deliver quad packed CAMM sooner & cheaper. I suspect MICA quad pack has missed its chance.

VT1 is fast, which is good for anti-missile defence, & relatively cheap per round, not having an expensive guidance system. But command guidance means the launching ship has to do all the work, so it's limited in the number of targets it can engage by the number the ship can guide at once, & it has a pretty short range, like Sea Wolf. I don't know how much future it has.

 

[Bonza]

Does anyone know if the RN has seriously considered fitting Harpoons to the Merlin. I believe it is possible as Spain I understand do it from their helicopters. Would allow a significant strike capability to be moved easily between platforms.

Just to come back to this for a moment, could you possibly have been thinking of the Super Puma helo armed with Exocet? Volkodav mentioned this briefly in his post and in some unrelated AShM googling I happened across some information on a Super Puma variant capable of hefting a pair of Exocets, and I believe Spain operates or operated this type. You can see a Super Puma firing the Exocet in the following video, from 0:24 to 0:30:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYDartUAar4"]YouTube - ‪MBDA Exocet Missile‬‏[/nomedia]

Bit off-topic, apologies all, just thought I should mention it for the sake of clarification.

 

[riksavage]

Defence Industry Daily has publshed updates ref the Phalanx insert on Daring. Assuming trials are successful the rest (Dauntless & Diamond) should receive similar upgraded units taken from the retiring T42's. They will then hopefully be allowed to deploy operationally.

Babcock International Group announces the pending qualification and testing of Raytheon’s MK.15 Phalanx 1B 20mm close-in weapon system on HMS Daring. The Type 45s were not delivered with secondary defensive systems for use against UAVs, small boats, and incoming missiles, so the pending qualification will help to patch the gaps in their defenses. Babcock will supervise the installation of 2 systems in HMS Daring at Portsmouth Naval Base, as a lead-in to Naval Weapon Sea Trials (NWST), including a towed target firing.

DDG Type 45: Britain’s Shrinking Air Defense Fleet

 

[swerve]

Does anyone know if the RN has seriously considered fitting Harpoons to the Merlin. I believe it is possible as Spain I understand do it from their helicopters. Would allow a significant strike capability to be moved easily between platforms.....

I think EH101 could carry a missile of that size, but I've never heard of Harpoon being carried by helicopters. Exocet is, & has been for many years. It used to be fitted to the Super Frelon.