The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

riksavage

Banned Member
This Perseus sounds good, it also sounds expensive and possibly like it could be classified as a cluster munition by some. I wonder about the real need for the sub-munitions, to me it looks like it would unecessarily add complexity and cost to the programme.
The three warhead configeration must greatly increase the potential damage area, plus a phalanx gun system will struggle to defeat one never mind three warheads. StarStreak uses a three dart system, why not something bigger?

A high/medium long range UCAV able to remain aloft for extended periods (24+ hours) equipped with a couple of Perseus or equivalents would provide an excellent maritime surveillance/strike platform. With proposed in-service date of 2030 the design must be aimed at as many future manned/unmanned platforms as possible. The more nations baulk at human loss, the more unmanned platforms will do the dirty work, plus you don;t need to worry about planning to recover any downed pilots.

I'm waiting for the first through deck UCAV cruisers to appear, it must only be a matter of time before ship builders capitalise on the cost/space savings (manning for one) of designing a UCAV only mini-carrier, which is able to conduct long range surveillance/strike missions and send real time imagery not just to the parent vessel but to a nations tri-service C&C centre back home. Something the size of a Japanese Hyuga Class with a crew of around 3 to 400 plus six to nine UCAVS.

Over the next twenty years UCAV costs will hopefully decrease as the technology matures allowing for expensive, large and labour intensive strike carriers to become a luxury, not a necessity. A new breed of cheaper 'Kamikaze' UCAV's could even become a reality designed to saturate a fleets defences without incurring excessive loss of life, all sent aloft from a small lean manned platform.

I seriously doubt the UK or other European countries can afford to develop a next generation F35/F22 replacement, they should instead focus on long range less stealthy UCAV's capable of launching extended range stealthy munitions such as Perseus.
 

kev 99

Member
The three warhead configeration must greatly increase the potential damage area, plus a phalanx gun system will struggle to defeat one never mind three warheads. StarStreak uses a three dart system, why not something bigger?
It would increase the damage area and make it harder to stop, but then it's supersonic and sleathy as well so it should be pretty difficult to stop anyway. It just feels like gold-plating for the sake of it. StarStreak is a SAM system so you can't really have peace campaigners calling it a cluster munition.

I seriously doubt the UK or other European countries can afford to develop a next generation F35/F22 replacement, they should instead focus on long range less stealthy UCAV's capable of launching extended range stealthy munitions such as Perseus.
I've seen it suggested in several places that it would cost similar money and take as long to develop a decent operational UCAV as it would a manned fighter, I couldn't possibly comment on the accuracy of this however.
 
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1805

New Member
What the RN needs is weapon systems useful in todays and tomorrows likely conflicts, preferably ones which are cheap (relatively), reliable and consummate to the threat. CAMM, FASGW-H, & LMM will all do nicely thank you, they make use of existing technologies and leverage of previous expensive R&D exercises. Hopefully ALL future designs will have both land and sea based applications (subject to minor changes), saving cost and cutting down potential supply chain bottlenecks.

MBDA at the Paris airshow are touting Perseus, a supersonic skimmer missile (ship/air/land based) with a range of 190miles capable of striking both land and sea based targets - cost 800K per-round. This would be far more useful than Harpoon because your average Frigate armed with eight off can use them against shipping and/or land based targets. (more likely the latter than the former these days).

Wildcat armed with FASGW-H will deal with most threats, fit something like Perseus to the proposed Anglo-French MALE UCAV, Typhoon/F35C and aboard the T26 (configured the same way Harpoon is currently fitted aboard a T23), not quite TacTom, but flexible enough to deal with surface combatants and coastal targets. Anything more deep-strike orientated use an Astute/T2 + TacTom.

Harpoon/Exocet are great systems, but in todays uncertain world we need missiles with the flexibility to operate over land and sea, which can be used by all three services. This will allow for stocks to be transferred between branches to deal with the immediate threat, whilst replacement orders are made. Wildcat follows a similar principle, all airframes will come in a standard paint scheme and can be changed from an AsW to an ACC platform very quickly depending upon role required.

The Royal Navy’s lastest Perisher submarine course has been covered in a fly on the wall doco and will be shown on UK TV. No doubt it will appear on YouTube pretty quickly after that for those who are interested.

Being radical to save money, does the RN need CAMM particularly if we end up with c8 T26; would we not be better focusing on Sampson/Aster 30 (maybe fitting to some other appropriate hulls as they are replaced LPH/T26) and relying on basic defence on 57mm & CIWS on all other ships. Hopefully the French are working on a quad backing solution for Sylver launchers.

If we need a supersonic cruise missile would it be cheaper to buy BrahMos and do a counter trade deal maybe securing Typhoon orders with India?
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
If the RN do not get CAMM what will the T23's get once Sea Wolf is time expired? And what will the T26's have for self defense?
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Being radical to save money, does the RN need CAMM particularly if we end up with c8 T26; would we not be better focusing on Sampson/Aster 30 (maybe fitting to some other appropriate hulls as they are replaced LPH/T26) and relying on basic defence on 57mm & CIWS on all other ships. Hopefully the French are working on a quad backing solution for Sylver launchers.

If we need a supersonic cruise missile would it be cheaper to buy BrahMos and do a counter trade deal maybe securing Typhoon orders with India?
1805, Why should saving money be radical & more to the point why should they be working on Aster / Sampson when only T45 has the missiles ?

IF, the UK Govt / RN wants to save money, the obvious thing is to 'mend & make do', while slowly introducing changes to the fleet when we have enough cash.

Radical changes such as a 57mm or Brahmos missiles are, to a certain extent pie in the sky.

To introduce just the 57mm as an example will require...

#A. - To purchase X amount of units.
#B. - To Purchase X amount of ammunition
#C. - To Purchase X amount of training, operational knowledge & spares.

These costs all mount up, as anyone who's in the business will tell you, the costs aren't in #A, or #B, they're all in #C !

So, let's ask some questions....

What is actually wrong with putting 4.5 inch MOD1 onto T26 ?
What is actually wrong with putting 30mm guns onto T26 ?
etc, etc...

CAMM is coming (or so we're led to believe), as a replacement to Seawolf. So IF we get CAMM, then it's logical that T23 & T26 should share it. It's just like what the RN do with Harpoon & Phalanx. T23 will get it 1st, T26 will get some new units, with the remaining sets from T23 being refurbed & passed across as each T23 is decommissioned & each new T26 is built.

Simples ! :D

SA
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If the RN do not get CAMM what will the T23's get once Sea Wolf is time expired? And what will the T26's have for self defense?

I could be wrong, but I thought that the RN had done a 'mid-life update' on Seawolf (the missiles that is), so they will last to the end of the T23 anyways... ?

SA
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The end of T23 is supposed to be in the 2030s. The Sea Wolf update has been in service for some years already. I doubt it'll last 30 years.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Being radical to save money, does the RN need CAMM particularly if we end up with c8 T26; would we not be better focusing on Sampson/Aster 30 (maybe fitting to some other appropriate hulls as they are replaced LPH/T26) and relying on basic defence on 57mm & CIWS on all other ships. Hopefully the French are working on a quad backing solution for Sylver launchers.
The French have a quad pack solution for Sylver. It's called Crotale. You can fit 4 VT1 missiles in a Sylver A35 launcher. Of course, that's a short-range CLOS missile, & AFAIK hasn't had any new (as distinct from upgrades) customers for quite a while.

CAMM is supposed to have export potential, & not just on T26.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Being radical to save money, does the RN need CAMM particularly if we end up with c8 T26; would we not be better focusing on Sampson/Aster 30 (maybe fitting to some other appropriate hulls as they are replaced LPH/T26) and relying on basic defence on 57mm & CIWS on all other ships. Hopefully the French are working on a quad backing solution for Sylver launchers.

If we need a supersonic cruise missile would it be cheaper to buy BrahMos and do a counter trade deal maybe securing Typhoon orders with India?
The other critical factor in CAMM's favour is it will be deployed by all three services, which will impact through life costs. With platforms becoming more expensive and less numerous the military needs to shrink the number of different types of ordinance it procures/fires.

Its a real shame 155mm will not be introduced on the T26 thus standardising artillery ammunition across the board. The UK could then reduce AS90 stocks, introduce a marinised 155mm gun platform (using AS90 barrels) and replace the 105mm light gun with M777 155mm howitzer. BAE already have the contract/tooling to produce 155mm in the UK so why not standardise the calibre.

If I was head of UK procurement I would as a priority enforce the following:

1. All future helicopter purchases to be marinised as standard with folding rotors.

2. Make 155mm standard across all three services for SPA, towed and ship-to-shore
Introduce a common anti-air missile across all three services (being done with CAMM)

3. Ensure the next generation anti-ship missiles can strike both land and sea targets (Perseus or equivalent, light and heavy missiles for Wildcat)

4. The new CTA 40mm gun system for the Scout Recce built in a marinised variant and introduced to T26 instead of 30mm allowing for a common range of ammo types to be developed with greater range, hitting power and explosive force. Use the system for the next generation MCM/OPV and retro fit to RFA's, T45 and new QE Class.
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, the whole cycle of mid life updates to the Type 23's which then get carried through to the Type 26's is a fairly economical way to do things. It gets a more modern radar onto the Type 23, backed with a very modern local area defence missile with quite a bit more reach, and of course, means we get a mature and stable radar and missile pairing on the Type 26.

Effectively, you're using the systems across twenty six ships, not thirteen - and CAMM may (should) end up on the Darings as it'll bulk out their stocks of missiles very nicely.

Ian
 

kev 99

Member
Apparently Dairing now has Phalanx fitted (shotleylad on Warships1) and Dauntless has deployed to the FRUKUS war games with 2 Lynx on board for the first time.
 

Repulse

New Member
Apparently Dairing now has Phalanx fitted (shotleylad on Warships1) and Dauntless has deployed to the FRUKUS war games with 2 Lynx on board for the first time.
Definately moving in the right direction. Is there a rollout plan for CIWS for all Darings?
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
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1805

New Member
1805, Why should saving money be radical & more to the point why should they be working on Aster / Sampson when only T45 has the missiles ?

IF, the UK Govt / RN wants to save money, the obvious thing is to 'mend & make do', while slowly introducing changes to the fleet when we have enough cash.

CAMM is coming (or so we're led to believe), as a replacement to Seawolf. So IF we get CAMM, then it's logical that T23 & T26 should share it. It's just like what the RN do with Harpoon & Phalanx. T23 will get it 1st, T26 will get some new units, with the remaining sets from T23 being refurbed & passed across as each T23 is decommissioned & each new T26 is built.

Simples ! :D

SA
"Mend and make do" is what the RN has been doing for the last 50 years, continuing down this route will just see reduced numbers and further increases in unit costs....its "death by a thousand cuts". They need to be more radical.

Would giving up a local SAM capability for the T26 be so bad? If the RN did not deploy CAMM to either the T23 and T26 they would save a lot over the course of the ships service, this could be recycled into a) saving other capbility b) sourcing 2-4 additional PAAMS systems to be fitted to suitable platforms.

The RN could then focus just on developing and maintaining PAAMS as a top tier system (ABM etc). CAMM could still be a part of PAAMS if it can be quad packed into Sylver VLS.

T23 numbers are likely to drop by 2020, probably 2-3 in the next 2 years, 8 is a very realistic number for T26. If 2 PAAMS where fitted to a couple of T26, the other 6 could rely on 57mm guns (not at the expense of the main 4.5" or 127mm gun) and CIWS. If any serious incidents occured it is likely one of the 6 would be in the company of a T45 or T26(PAAMS).

If T23 do start to leave the fleet again it will be interesting if the go for the earlier or newer ones. The latter would attract more interest/££ and accelerate arrival of the T26.
 

1805

New Member
!

So, let's ask some questions....

What is actually wrong with putting 4.5 inch MOD1 onto T26 ?
What is actually wrong with putting 30mm guns onto T26 ?
etc, etc...


SA
It depends on the cost of a 4.5" v the altenative which most assume would be a 127mm but I surpose would could consider a 155mm AGS (but that is probably very expensive..maybe cheaper developing out 155mm 39cal on Mk8!).

But the real issues is none else will be using this calibre soon and the cost of developing the ammunition is beyond the RN, so you would be saddling the ships with a basic capability when far more promising ammunition is available (also 45lb shell vs 60lb or something like that...100lb would be much better...maybe financed by not fitting CAMM to T26?)
 

1805

New Member
Apparently Dairing now has Phalanx fitted (shotleylad on Warships1) and Dauntless has deployed to the FRUKUS war games with 2 Lynx on board for the first time.
I wonder if they could accomodate 2 Merlin. The are c21m beam and the RCN Tribals are 15m and can carry 2 Sea King.
 

1805

New Member
The other critical factor in CAMM's favour is it will be deployed by all three services, which will impact through life costs. With platforms becoming more expensive and less numerous the military needs to shrink the number of different types of ordinance it procures/fires.

Its a real shame 155mm will not be introduced on the T26 thus standardising artillery ammunition across the board. The UK could then reduce AS90 stocks, introduce a marinised 155mm gun platform (using AS90 barrels) and replace the 105mm light gun with M777 155mm howitzer. BAE already have the contract/tooling to produce 155mm in the UK so why not standardise the calibre.

If I was head of UK procurement I would as a priority enforce the following:

1. All future helicopter purchases to be marinised as standard with folding rotors.

2. Make 155mm standard across all three services for SPA, towed and ship-to-shore
Introduce a common anti-air missile across all three services (being done with CAMM)

3. Ensure the next generation anti-ship missiles can strike both land and sea targets (Perseus or equivalent, light and heavy missiles for Wildcat)

4. The new CTA 40mm gun system for the Scout Recce built in a marinised variant and introduced to T26 instead of 30mm allowing for a common range of ammo types to be developed with greater range, hitting power and explosive force. Use the system for the next generation MCM/OPV and retro fit to RFA's, T45 and new QE Class.
Not sure the RAF would need many 155mm guns :;-) but agree with you completely on the 155mm, this really is penny wise £ foolish; a big increase in capability for little investment. I also suspect we would attract exports as people would move from 127mm, particularly if the USN drops it (many years off as they are still fitting)

Not sure 40mm guns would be as great a priority.
 
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