The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[kev 99]

Most sources I've read state that the Holland class would be classed as a frigate if it had better weaponry. The fact is that most non hot war tasks could be carried out comfortably by a Holland type vessel carrying a Merlin or Wildcat, APT(S) for example. You could upgrade them if the need arised. The could also carry AUVs.

The 2nd 76 mm gun, is to give a relatively cheap increase in ASu and AAW capability when using specialist munitions such as Volcano.

Well I don't know what sort of sonar it carries, doesn't look able to carry a TAS and it doesn't carry a SAM system, so I think heavily armed OPV is probably a decent description.

I know what the 2nd 76mm is for I just don't see where you're going to put it, I think you'd probably have to increase the length of the hull slightly.

 

[Repulse]

Well I don't know what sort of sonar it carries, doesn't look able to carry a TAS and it doesn't carry a SAM system, so I think heavily armed OPV is probably a decent description.

I know what the 2nd 76mm is for I just don't see where you're going to put it, I think you'd probably have to increase the length of the hull slightly.

No TAS, that is what the T26s will be for. Extending for the second gun is possible but it could also go on the hanger roof like the Italian FREMM. I understand that guns with this type of ammo is not a bad AAW capability.

 

[swerve]

I would be very surprised, 5 must be a worst case...well a disaster. That said I suspect T23 numbers will decline maybe to 10 over the next 2-4 years, realistically the likelihood of getting more than 8 T26 must be slim. This is why I and others have suggested a light frigate to maintain numbers.

If the budget would support development, building, & operating a new light frigate class, it'd support a few more T26.

 

[swerve]

Most sources I've read state that the Holland class would be classed as a frigate if it had better weaponry. The fact is that most non hot war tasks could be carried out comfortably by a Holland type vessel carrying a Merlin or Wildcat, APT(S) for example. You could upgrade them if the need arised. The could also carry AUVs.

The 2nd 76 mm gun, is to give a relatively cheap increase in ASu and AAW capability when using specialist munitions such as Volcano.

The Holland class is frigate-sized, but slow. Agreed, it could do most things short of outright war, but so could something smaller & cheaper, e.g. BAM. It's not cheap as it is, & upgrading its weapons to frigate standards would considerably increase its purchase & operating costs. The radars would probably be OK as they are, though.

 

[Repulse]

The Holland class is frigate-sized, but slow. Agreed, it could do most things short of outright war, but so could something smaller & cheaper, e.g. BAM. It's not cheap as it is, & upgrading its weapons to frigate standards would considerably increase its purchase & operating costs. The radars would probably be OK as they are, though.

I like the Holland because of it's sensors and I definately would not upgrade it unless WW3 broke out... However, you are right there are other options worth looking at. My point is that we should be planning for a Hi-Lo navy and the money probably exists to do it.

 

[kev 99]

I like the Holland because of it's sensors and I definately would not upgrade it unless WW3 broke out... However, you are right there are other options worth looking at. My point is that we should be planning for a Hi-Lo navy and the money probably exists to do it.

All very well but the concept for the Future Mine Countermeasures is basically an OPV with Mine Countermeasures equipement to do the sort of tasks that you're Holland class would do, I think this is the more suitable way of doing it since we wouldn't have to deal with a much reduced escort fleet to acheive it.

 

[Repulse]

All very well but the concept for the Future Mine Countermeasures is basically an OPV with Mine Countermeasures equipement to do the sort of tasks that you're Holland class would do, I think this is the more suitable way of doing it since we wouldn't have to deal with a much reduced escort fleet to acheive it.

If we were able to get 'Holland' class MHPCs on a one to one replacement basis for the MCMVs and Rivers I would agree. Though, I suspect they will be closer to HMS Clyde, perhaps with a hanger; also they seem years away.

As the Holland class has a good sensor fit it would make operating helicopters and UAVs much more effective. As long as they could be upgraded for ASu and AAW missiles at a later date in a time of real need (where budgets are less important) then I don't see it as a massive reduction in capabilities. We would still have a ready core high end fleet for emergencies.

 

[kev 99]

If we were able to get 'Holland' class MHPCs on a one to one replacement basis for the MCMVs and Rivers I would agree. Though, I suspect they will be closer to HMS Clyde, perhaps with a hanger; also they seem years away.

As the Holland class has a good sensor fit it would make operating helicopters and UAVs much more effective. As long as they could be upgraded for ASu and AAW missiles at a later date in a time of real need (where budgets are less important) then I don't see it as a massive reduction in capabilities. We would still have a ready core high end fleet for emergencies.

There's a reason they are in the future it's because we don't have the budget for them, but in my opinion it is by far the more suitable way of providing OPVs for the sort of tasks you are after. If we do things your way then we get less frigates and some OPVs which provide an increase in overall hull numbers but at a much reduced capability, but then what do we do when the specialist MCM vessels need to be replaced? do we go for specialist vessels or follow the original plan of OPV/MCM hybrids in which case what was the point in your original Holland class OPVs?

Hi-lo mix escort fleets work well when there are significant numbers, but with the reduced levels that the RN will have to cope with in the future they begin to make a great deal less sense, the SDSR tells us that this number will be 19, that may be reduced in future but I don't think anyone can be under any illusions about it going up.

The French navy has used Hi-lo mix escort fleets well in the past but due to a reduced escort fleet will now have to live with 5 "second rank" frigates that have been promoted to first rank without an increase in capability (La Fayette class) as a result of a cut to the FREMM purchase, do you think the politicians in this country would pass up the chance to do this to the RN? Personally I think the treassury would jump at the chance.

Proper escorts and OPV/MCM hybrids are probably the way to go on this, I think the RN have got it right.

 

[Repulse]

There's a reason they are in the future it's because we don't have the budget for them, but in my opinion it is by far the more suitable way of providing OPVs for the sort of tasks you are after. If we do things your way then we get less frigates and some OPVs which provide an increase in overall hull numbers but at a much reduced capability, but then what do we do when the specialist MCM vessels need to be replaced? do we go for specialist vessels or follow the original plan of OPV/MCM hybrids in which case what was the point in your original Holland class OPVs?

Hi-lo mix escort fleets work well when there are significant numbers, but with the reduced levels that the RN will have to cope with in the future they begin to make a great deal less sense, the SDSR tells us that this number will be 19, that may be reduced in future but I don't think anyone can be under any illusions about it going up.

The French navy has used Hi-lo mix escort fleets well in the past but due to a reduced escort fleet will now have to live with 5 "second rank" frigates that have been promoted to first rank without an increase in capability (La Fayette class) as a result of a cut to the FREMM purchase, do you think the politicians in this country would pass up the chance to do this to the RN? Personally I think the treassury would jump at the chance.

Proper escorts and OPV/MCM hybrids are probably the way to go on this, I think the RN have got it right.

My point is that the MHPC is going to be of an HMS Clyde standard for patrolling. These therefore will not have the capability to cover APT(S), anti-piracy, WI or even Libyia type blockade duties, therefore tying up valuable first class escorts. Having a larger number of "second" class frigates to specifically cover these types of ops would in my view be the right way to go. Also, the number of expected MHPCs will probably not be sufficient to cover more than the current River / MCMV duties.

I agree the treasury will always push to cut things, but by cutting the number of vessels as is currently happening, will only led to cuts being imposed by reducing the cost / capability of replacement ships (T26 is a good example).

 

[kev 99]

My point is that the MHPC is going to be of an HMS Clyde standard for patrolling. These therefore will not have the capability to cover APT(S), anti-piracy, WI or even Libyia type blockade duties, therefore tying up valuable first class escorts. Having a larger number of "second" class frigates to specifically cover these types of ops would in my view be the right way to go. Also, the number of expected MHPCs will probably not be sufficient to cover more than the current River / MCMV duties.

All the MHPC needs to be for patrolling is HMS Clyde standard, but it will be Clyde with a hanger (possibly telescopic though), that is quite sufficient for anti-piracy or WI, anything else and a Frigate should of been sent.

We have proper escorts on Libya duties at the moment, HMS Liverpool actually came under fire and had to return with her 4.5" against a shore target.

I agree the treasury will always push to cut things, but by cutting the number of vessels as is currently happening, will only led to cuts being imposed by reducing the cost / capability of replacement ships (T26 is a good example).

And in your scenario you the Rn ends up with OPVs masquarading as Frigates that would be completely useless in a war, never mind the chance to upgrade them with a sam system or sonars, you and I both know this doesn't actually happen in the real world. We know this because this has already happened to the Marine Nationale.

 

[swerve]

I like the Holland because of it's sensors and I definately would not upgrade it unless WW3 broke out... However, you are right there are other options worth looking at. My point is that we should be planning for a Hi-Lo navy and the money probably exists to do it.

If a war broke out in which we needed the OPV/frigates to be upgraded, they'd probably be too late for the party unless they'd -
1) Been built ready for upgrading, i.e. FFNBW. This means space allocated, physical connectivity & systems ready to accept new weapons.
2) Kept up to date. Software upgrades, etc., connections modified if new weapons introduced.
3) We have equipment in storage for them to use.
4) We have reserve crews ready to call up to use the extra equipment.

All this lot is cheaper than fitting everything & operating it, but more expensive than buying unprepared OPVs. That cost must be factored in. Provision must also be made to cover their base tasks, e.g. MCMV. We'd therefore need more of them than if we didn't plan to upgrade some on the outbreak of war.

Apart from that - +1 to what Kev's said.

 

[Repulse]

If a war broke out in which we needed the OPV/frigates to be upgraded, they'd probably be too late for the party unless they'd -
1) Been built ready for upgrading, i.e. FFNBW. This means space allocated, physical connectivity & systems ready to accept new weapons.
2) Kept up to date. Software upgrades, etc., connections modified if new weapons introduced.
3) We have equipment in storage for them to use.
4) We have reserve crews ready to call up to use the extra equipment.

All this lot is cheaper than fitting everything & operating it, but more expensive than buying unprepared OPVs. That cost must be factored in. Provision must also be made to cover their base tasks, e.g. MCMV. We'd therefore need more of them than if we didn't plan to upgrade some on the outbreak of war.

Apart from that - +1 to what Kev's said.

Swerve, completely on board with FFBNW approach. I guess it doesn't have to be the usual harpoon / CAMM either as there may be cheaper weapons to use this approach with. Hoping that Volcano ammo could offer a lot of capability upgrade as well. Correct me if you think I am wrong, but with a Holland type the sensor fit would already be up to spec.

Where possible, I think we should use the RNVR to bulk up crews when required.

 

[Repulse]

All the MHPC needs to be for patrolling is HMS Clyde standard, but it will be Clyde with a hanger (possibly telescopic though), that is quite sufficient for anti-piracy or WI, anything else and a Frigate should of been sent.

We have proper escorts on Libya duties at the moment, HMS Liverpool actually came under fire and had to return with her 4.5" against a shore target.

There will not be enough MHPC ships to do anything beyond what they currently do. 5 frigates or more "second" rate frigates (which is what a Holland is with a bit of beefing up of weapons) , both have their advantages / disadvantages. In the current climate I see presence plus add ons such as helicopters / UAVs being most important at present.

And in your scenario you the Rn ends up with OPVs masquarading as Frigates that would be completely useless in a war, never mind the chance to upgrade them with a sam system or sonars, you and I both know this doesn't actually happen in the real world. We know this because this has already happened to the Marine Nationale.

I agree there is a danger, but it's already the case with the T45 not having harpoon to save money...

 

[StevoJH]

I'm going to go all broken record again and say:

Stretched Clyde/River class with:
- Hanger
- provisions for a larger gun forward (not fitting it, just leaving space/weight), this could also benefit future export chances
- Fit with or FFBNW a typhoon or minityphoon style mount on each port and starboard side of the ship
- fit a crane aft that is either on top of or alongside the hanger for deployment of Unmanned surface and sub-surface vehicles that can be stored in the hanger

 

[kev 99]

There will not be enough MHPC ships to do anything beyond what they currently do. 5 frigates or more "second" rate frigates (which is what a Holland is with a bit of beefing up of weapons) , both have their advantages / disadvantages. In the current climate I see presence plus add ons such as helicopters / UAVs being most important at present.

The MCM fleet already do patrol in the EEZ, they've also done some in Iraq, under the plans for the MHPC they will be able to do it further afield and better.

UAVs and helicopters may be most important at present but the RN fleet is being reduced so it's not exactly going to have loads of them to cope with an increased escort fleet.

I'm not convinced by your argument that a Holland is beefed up frigate, it may be big enough and it may have a decent radar but without a proper SAM system and sonar it's just an OPV, and to get beefed up armament it needs to be beefed up in size.

I agree there is a danger, but it's already the case with the T45 not having harpoon to save money...

I'm quite far from convinced it actually needs it.

 

[StevoJH]

I'm quite far from convinced it actually needs it.

As am I. That what the Lynx is for, and in addition the T45 has its 4.5" gun for any close in work.

 

[swerve]

I'm going to go all broken record again and say:

Stretched Clyde/River class with:
- Hanger
- provisions for a larger gun forward (not fitting it, just leaving space/weight), this could also benefit future export chances
- Fit with or FFBNW a typhoon or minityphoon style mount on each port and starboard side of the ship
- fit a crane aft that is either on top of or alongside the hanger for deployment of Unmanned surface and sub-surface vehicles that can be stored in the hanger

Sounds good to me. I wouldn't complain if it actually had a bigger (57mm would do, with provision for 76mm for export, if wanted) gun fitted forward, though. And provision for a self-protection suite along the lines of the Thetis class.

 

[Repulse]

As am I. That what the Lynx is for, and in addition the T45 has its 4.5" gun for any close in work.

Of course that is assuming that the Lynx is ready to / or can fly and that the attacking ship is not that big...

 

[Repulse]

Sounds good to me. I wouldn't complain if it actually had a bigger (57mm would do, with provision for 76mm for export, if wanted) gun fitted forward, though. And provision for a self-protection suite along the lines of the Thetis class.

I don't have a problem at all for a modified Clyde version. I also like the Danish Knud Rasmussen. I'm sure a Clyde v2 could also be modified for a larger gun and an internal bay.

The fact is that the MHPC is probably still 15 years away. What we need are vessels that can take up the light duties. Even swapping one frigate for a Clyde like lease for 3 vessels would take the pressure off.

 

[StobieWan]

I don't have a problem at all for a modified Clyde version. I also like the Danish Knud Rasmussen. I'm sure a Clyde v2 could also be modified for a larger gun and an internal bay.

The fact is that the MHPC is probably still 15 years away. What we need are vessels that can take up the light duties. Even swapping one frigate for a Clyde like lease for 3 vessels would take the pressure off.

we've got ships in the water that are paid for that we're paying off because we can't afford to run them. Where do you think that puts the idea of commissioning a new class of ships?

Ian