Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[gf0012-aust]

Sorry I'm a bit lost here.... In Indonesia's case, wouldn't an MPA or a helicopter fitfed with a data link be sufficient?

the indons don't have the same situational appreciation capabilities. it is platform centric - and that means its not theatre "friendly"

What about the PLAN and it's Sunburns on the Soveremeny's?

the PLAN has greater situational awareness and situational appreciation - and she's making determined efforts to do so

I'm not sure about the Yakhont, but if I'm not mistaken for the Soviets, the whole idea of having extra large missiles like the Sunburn and Shipwreck was to cause massive damage to carriers and other large ships. At the speed these missiles travel, even if the warhead fails to ignite it would probably slice a frigate or a destroyer in 2.

also because there was a question around the accuracy and quality of the guidance systems, so blast and area of effect was always larger/bigger than western contemporaries

Prior to the ASTER 15/30 and ESSM entering service, was there any Western air to surface missile that could handle supersonic anti-ship missiles?

The west had to deal with Mach 5 missiles during the cold war - I've never understood why all of a sudden its thought that this is a new difficult threat when NATO and the USN were up against a far more physical and disparate threat.

Is there any truth to a number of reports that indicate that CIWS's like Goalkeeper, Meroka and Phalanx can only handle subsonic missiles?

they've done it weapons tests against talos/vandal/sea snake targets, thats mach 3+ weapons emulating russian/soviet AShM

Some more imfo here on theYakhont launch.

Indonesia tests Yakhont missile, finally - UPI.com

Info on the Brahmos.

TRISHUL: BrahMos MRCM Operational With Indian Navy

Brahmos is a range limited and guidance neutered Yakhont sold to comply with MTCR, Look at the indian development probs, all to do with guidance and steerage, and ironically the very thing that has cost them money is what they're now seeking to try and partner with the Russians - ie they've burnt their money and come full circle.

If I was the Exchequer and the IN I would be furious at being suckered

 

[STURM]

If I was the Exchequer and the IN I would be furious at being suckered

I can't seem to find the link anymore but there was an article mentioning how the Indians were very annoyed that the Russians have refused to buy Brahmos, which they allegedly promised to do, when joint development of Brahmos started. Another issue that has pissed the Indians off is that countries that have been targeted as possible Brahmos buyers have also been offered Yakhont and Indonesia being a prime example.

Not sure how accurate it was but about 2 years ago an Indian writer wrote about how the TNI-AL was planning on integrating a VLS for the Brahmos on the Kilo's it was planning to buy.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesia should be proud of hostage rescue mission: TNI
The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | Sun, 05/01/2011 9:43 PM | National


Indonesian military (TNI) spokesperson Rear Adm. Iskandar Sitompul said Sunday that the nation should be proud of the government's work in rescuing the crew of the Sinar Kudus.

"No other nation has succeeded in saving men held hostage at sea in less than 150 days. We managed to do it in 46 days," Iskandar said at a press conference.

He said that as early as March 18 the President had led a Cabinet meeting to discuss rescue options, and that by March 23 navy soldiers had been sent to monitor the ship’s situation.

"We sent three ships, one aircraft and one helicopter," he said.

However, Iskandar said that the government chose not to take military action as it would put the safety of the hostages in danger.

"The Association of Trade Ship Captains and the families of the men preferred to negotiate," he said.

He said, "We recommended Samudera Indonesia carry out the negotiations with the pirates.”

Iskandar said the military helped to escort the ship to the nearest port after the pirates deserted it following the ransom payment by the company.(awd)

Link:Indonesia should be proud of hostage rescue mission: TNI | The Jakarta Post

So it looks like the Indonesian Navy have shot dead 4 pirates after an amount of ransom money has been paid to the pirates.

See also these articles in Indonesian language:
http://nasional.kompas.com/read/2011/05/02/0839123/Kronologi.Satgas.TNI.di.Perairan.Somalia
http://nasional.kompas.com/read/2011/05/02/10593066/TNI.Tembak.Mati.4.Perompak.Somalia

 

[Ananda]

It's not a game changer but still interesting in the sense that the Yakhont is I think, the region's first supersonic ship launched ASM with the longest range and the biggest warhead. Whether the Indonesian's will be able to exploit it's long range will depend on the availibity of OTHT platforms with a data link.

I only found one mentioned in local article when the Navy Chief being asked by reporters how the Yakhont find the target morethan 250 Km from the Frigate, and he only stated that the mid range correction being done by KRI Cakra (the type 209 subs). How Cakra can communicate with the Yakhont missiles, was not being stated.

Some pictures on loading the Yakont to Oswald Siahaan (the Van Speijk frigate)

 

[OpinionNoted]

the indons don't have the same situational appreciation capabilities. it is platform centric - and that means its not theatre "friendly"

What does situational appreciation mean exactly and how does that affect effective indonesian employment of yakhont?

 

[gf0012-aust]

What does situational appreciation mean exactly and how does that affect effective indonesian employment of yakhont?

situational appreciation is a finessed version of situational awareness.

we tend to use appreciation at the broad picture level (eg purple) whereas situational awareness tends to be platform or event centric

an oversimplification:

eg awareness jet fighter, own systems identtify, platform prosecutes
eg appreciation jet fighter, pulls feeds in from AWACs, OTHR, SWR, other "Link nn" friendly assets (including air, land, sea, space), identifies that killing the red platform might compromise a nearby event, avoids the contact as it can see the red asset without giving away its own presence.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

In the end of this year the Korps Marinir will get "a Chinese assembled Oerlikon Contraves 35 mm AAA." I expect it will be the Type 90, the Chinese licensed copy of ***-002

Singapore example of ***-002


Why Indonesia always buy small amounts of many sorts of cheap low-tech air defence systems against low and slow flying targets? Its better to save money a couple of years to buy something more capable.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Huh?! Why G.D.F. becomes *** ?

 

[wrs]

STURM, your link doesnt work.

From memory its thought that the Sea Cat *might* have scored a kill in the Falklands, but it was never confirmed that it got the kill, I could be wrong. Besides, even one kill out of who knows how many fired puts them no where near the effectiveness of Sea Dart and Sea Wolf.

Though, possibly more effective then Sea Slug? Sea Slug could (and was) used as Artillery though.

It was seacat and it destoyed several A4 and Mirage.
I was in my lounge room 1982? watching the morning? news and saw them filmed , from after launch until impact. Right up the rear.
Good footage, especially with theA4 trying to flee between mountains above the sound.
By the way, what courage with the pilots flying at extreme range.. They deserve mention.
Launched from type 21.

 

[wrs]

It was seacat and it destoyed several A4 and Mirage.
I was in my lounge room 1982? watching the morning? news and saw them filmed , from after launch until impact. Right up the rear.
Good footage, especially with theA4 trying to flee between mountains above the sound.
By the way, what courage with the pilots flying at extreme range.. They deserve mention.
Launched from type 21.

And the Rapier was inoperable due to the petrol engined generators not working after the sea voyage. They were mounted on the heights surrounding the various sounds.

 

[Ananda]

Somalia's Action

Some Pictures from Antara News Agency on the action of TNI-AL when trying to liberate an Indonesian ships MV Kudus which's under hostages from Somalian Pirates. The ransom actually being paid by the ship owners, however the 2 Van Speijk Frigates was there to give continue pressured to the pirates for them to keep the bargain.

From the pIctures it's shown one of the Frigates has her heli-pad full of RIBS. These action also still show that for long term patrol duties deep into the ocean, TNI-AL still relly with the Van Speijk's despites the arival of new SIGMA Light Frigates/Corvetes.

 

[StevoJH]

The Leander class (and derivatives), the frigates that just keep on giving even after all their competitors have long gone to the scrap heap.

 

[Ananda]

The Leander class (and derivatives), the frigates that just keep on giving even after all their competitors have long gone to the scrap heap.

Yep..with the original boilers being replaced with 90's technology Diesel and the hull practically much of them being rebuild, the old Frigates still can maintain crusing speed of 22 - 24 knots. Also according unconfirmed report from PT. PAL, after repowering withnew engines and hull rebuild, on trial they still can achieve close to original builder maximum test speed.

With new weapon system being added (Yakhont), this Frigates still show good capability to adapt with system they are not originally design for to accept. Show the versatility of the design. Say what you will, the Brits really know to design naval ships

 

[harryriedl]

The Leander class (and derivatives), the frigates that just keep on giving even after all their competitors have long gone to the scrap heap.

One of the great hull forms very impressed how many nations are still using Leander's, The variety in equipment is interesting with Russian, Israeli kit fitted.

 

[Ananda]

Russia Pull Away From Indonesian Submarine Bid

From Tempo Interaktif with google tranlate:

TEMPO Interactive, Jakarta - Procurement Evaluation Team (TEP), the Ministry of Defence is currently cooking the submarine purchase plan to strengthen the Navy fleet. The formulation has entered the stage of selecting one among the three producing countries which have submitted bids. "The three countries are Germany, France, and Korea," said Chief of Staff of the Navy, Admiral TNI Soeparno kepadaTempo, Sunday, June 5, 2011.

Previously, there were four countries that submitted bids to the TNI. However, one producer countries, namely Russia, finally retired submarine products offered do not comply with the required technical specifications of the Navy. "They offer a large submarine," said Soeparno. Submarines that the Navy needed, he said, not too big and in accordance with the conditions of Indonesian waters.

In addition, the purchase of submarines are also adjusted to the available budget. "If a big submarine, its budget is insufficient," he said. Unfortunately, Soeparno reluctant to mention how much the budget is prepared to buy a submarine. However, according to him, plans to buy submarines have been budgeted since 2005.

Previously, Head of Defense Ministry of Defense Facilities, Rear Admiral TNI Susilo said that this year the government will buy at least two units of the submarine. "This year we expect to execution," said Susilo at his office, Jakarta, late May.

In line with Soeparno, Susilo said the purchase of submarines is adjusted with the available budget, given the high cost of the submarine. He exemplifies the kind of Scorpene submarines French products purchased by the neighbor country, Malaysia, worth about 550 million Euros or more than $ 700 million. In addition to offering French Scorpene, Germany offers submarine U-209 type and South Korea offer the Chang Bogo.

According Soeparno, the Navy needs at least at least six submarines. Currently, the Navy only had two submarines, namely KRI KRI Cakra and Nanggala owned since the 1980s. That, too, KRI Cakra is still under construction and newly completed in January next year. To meet the number of miminal it, "Navy submarine needed four more," he said.

However, in order to meet the ideal number is still needed quite a long time. The reason, once ordered, the process of making the submarine took many years. "A minimum of three years," he said.

Russia finaly withdrawn from the bid, eventhough for sometime her submarines considered the front runner by some Indonesian defence analyst and internet enthusiast in local forum. I my self think it will be difficult for the Russian will be the front runner considered:
1. Indonesian submarines infrastructures already build for more than 3 decades with German/European SSK in mind (for example Indonesian built torpedoes is German SUT underlicenes). This mean 60 m - 70 m SSK with support infrastructures and logistics build around that. Adding Kilo to that potentially add significant infrastructur need to be add, thus increasing support costs.
2. Indonesia hopes for Lada or Amur rather than Kilo. However up until now, the Amur that Indonesia hopes to be submitted by Russia still have teething problem. This show with Russia still continue offered Kilo eventhough several signal from Indonesia already show that the Amur/Lada that Indonesia interested on.
3. The last and I think is the killer deal for Russian is Indonesia want unnegotiable condition that whoever win has to help build Submarine Manufacturing Infrastructure in PT. PAL shipyard in Surabaya. Indonesia alaready put signal that they want 4 sub, with first order 2. In this deal Indonesian want the first sub build on contractors yard abroad with substantial PAL technicians involvement, the second will be assembled in PAL facilities with still substantial kit from foreign contractors whille, the 3rd and 4th will be build entirely in PAL facilities. The ROK and German show willingness to the deal, whille the Russian seems still reluctant.

Many defence enthusiast in here will be unhappy with Russian pull-out since they have fatasise their hope with Kilo. However I believe the deal will be latest versions of 209 although 214 still the possibilities. What many internet defense enthusiast in local forum do not get is that getting Submarines manufacturing capabilities (even only with 209) is more important than getting the much praise Kilo, but without manufacturing capabilities on local yard.

French Scorpene is a surprise bid according to me though. I do not know if French willing to provide support for local manucafturing as much as what ROK or German seems already showing. Talking about budget as the reasons for Russian pull-out is a diplomatic gesture. Scorpene is more expensives that Kilo or Lada/Amur will be anyway.

According to Tempo Interactive for this 2 Subs, the Indonesian Government already set asside budget of more USD1 bio (but still less than USD 2 bio), thus it's actually can be sufficient for 2 Scorpenes (the most expensives of the candidates) let alone 2 Kilo's.

The government earmarked more than U.S. $ 1 billion (approximately USD 8.6 trillion) to buy submarines the Navy. Head of Defense Ministry of Defense Facilities, Rear Admiral TNI Susilo, said the submarine purchase plan has been budgeted since 2005. Budget, "Not more than $ 2 billion," said Susilo told Tempo yesterday.

In 2005, the government has only budgeted $ 700 million, assuming the price of submarines to U.S. $ 350-400 million per unit. Over time, the budget grew

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The U-209 and Chang Bogo class boats offred by Grmany and South-Korea, are in fact of the same class as the KRI Cakra 401 class boats (Type-209/1300), but of course with lots of improvements. That mean that if TNI-AL buy two modernized versions of the Type 209 from Korsel or Jerman, it will be of a much older design than the brandnew high-tech Scorpene Class boats from Malaysia....

So we have to buy the Type 214, if not we will acquire a less capable boat than our neighbours. And with $1 to $2M, you can buy something good...

 

[STURM]

Many defence enthusiast in here will be unhappy with Russian pull-out since they have fatasise their hope with Kilo. Talking about budget as the reasons for Russian pull-out is a diplomatic gesture. Scorpene is more expensives that Kilo or Lada/Amur will be anyway

According to Tempo Interactive for this 2 Subs, the Indonesian Government already set asside budget of more USD1 bio (but still less than USD 2 bio), thus it's actually can be sufficient for 2 Scorpenes (the most expensives of the candidates) let alone 2Kilo's.

The Malaysians paid a billion Euro for its 2 Scorpenes, not including the setting up of a shore support infrastructure and annual operating costs. Indonesia's shelving of its previous plans to get Kilos may turn out to be a good thing. For one, there is the question if Russian advances in acoustic reduction technology has resulted in the Kilo being quiter than current Western designs. There is also the question of how well integrated is the CMS compared to say the SUBTICs and the level of automation. Other questions are is the level of mantainance needed and operating costs compared to Western designs.

The Kilo does have several advantages over the Scorpene and Type 214/Type 209 :

1. Being larger ,it is built for deep water operations rather than shallow water/littoral work like the Scorpene.

2. It also has a longer range and endurance.

3. Unlike the Scorpene and Type 214, it has already been integrated with a long range supersonic missile, the Klub.

 

[Ananda]

@sandhiyudha, yes the dillema betwen 209 or 214 has been around for some time. But remembered, the ambition now just not only to get additional Subs, but also to be able to build the Subs locally.

Many in the Navy feels that since the history of Subs in Indonesian Navy has been the longgest in SEA (Thailand may be the first using Subs, but TNI-AL is the only Navy in SEA that has longgest unbroken record of Submarines operations since the 60's), they do want the subs that can be comparable to Malaysian Scorpene, Singaporean Swedish AIP subs, and soon Vietnam Kilo's.

However the arguments for 209 is that PAL it self can be more technological adaptable to build 209 locally since they already have experiences conducting huge overhaul for 209. Building 214 will be more technological challange than 209.

Arguments for 209 was that eventhough it's an older design but still the latest 209 has the ability to be comparable somewhat close to newer design like 214 or Scorpene. The latest 209 also will be capable to launch SSM in which become one of the preequisite by TNI-AL.

In the end it will be a compromise between Navy need for Submarines that can provide much modern technology than their present 209 and the need for PAL to build their technological base capability for developing and manufacturing submarines locally. I do think the front runer will be either 209 and 214, and although Scorpene still in the contentions, considering that TNI-AL for sometime more familiar with German subs, and PAL already have good relationship with either Daewoo and HDW, it will be a surprise if Scorpene being chooses.

@Strurm, yes there's considerations for higher cost for maintanaces and adaptations of Kilo's on TNI-AL operations, but I think the main killer still the relative reluctancy from Russian to help build Submarines manufacturing capabilities with PAL (i,e, HDW and Daewoo offered to help PAL is more substantial).

Note: Sources from Ministry of Finance indicated that the agreement of inter-ministry (finance, defence and state enterprises) indicated the overall budget is not only to buy new subs, but also to be uses to prepared PAL facility to manufactured the subs.

 

[firdausj]

@Strurm, yes there's considerations for higher cost for maintanaces and adaptations of Kilo's on TNI-AL operations, but I think the main killer still the relative reluctancy from Russian to help build Submarines manufacturing capabilities with PAL (i,e, HDW and Daewoo offered to help PAL is more substantial).

Not 100% accurate ... Russia has offered ToT of KIlo but Indonesia has to purchase at least 6 units ....

Some 'Pressure' from US is also another factor that should be considered ....

Note: Sources from Ministry of Finance indicated that the agreement of inter-ministry (finance, defence and state enterprises) indicated the overall budget is not only to buy new subs, but also to be uses to prepared PAL facility to manufactured the subs.

Maybe yes ... maybe not ... .

 

[Ananda]

Not 100% accurate ... Russia has offered ToT of Kilo but Indonesia has to purchase at least 6 units ....

I'm talking abour Submarines manufacturing capabilities. ToT just part of that. You can be promissed to get technological help on building Submarines, but it will not mean anything if the deal does'not included helping PAL to adjust and retolling their manufacturing infrastructures for Submarines manufacturing.

That's what Daewoo offered to PAL, not only the ToT on how to build Subs, but also helping PAL to adjust their facilities for Subs manufacturing. Whille the Russsian promissed for ToT but demand another seperate deal for helping PAL adjust their manufacturing infrastructures.

Some 'Pressure' from US is also another factor that should be considered ....

Honestly, why if something not progressing on the deal with China or Russia now in Indonesia being blamed on US Influenced

What the US got to do with this deal ?? They (US) has no interest on SSK market since they're only building SSN. Even now, the US still has difficulty on getting Taiwan SSK they've promissed since no other SSK builder nations willing to enrage China. In short US can not force German, France or South Korea to do what they want. So why help German, South Korea, or France (especially France) on this Indonesian submarines bid ?

US might be a superpower, but that does'n't mean they influenced everyting. Can you just accept that Russia is out from the bidding because they can't provide deal that commercially competitive from what ROK, Germany, or French willing to offered . Can you accept perhaps the Navy actually realise that Russian subs on the long term can be more expensives to maintain compared to Western design ?