Can someone tell me any info on the Mikoyan LMFS

Comrade69

Banned Member
Hello, first of I love this forum, hoping to post a lot and be active.


Ok so I came across it the other day in wiki(cant post links yet)


is this true that now the Mig company is trying to develop a 5th generation fighter?
and how much of a success rate does that plane have?


and if this plane does come out then props to Russia because I have noticed their Air Force is really coming up lately with planes like

Pak-FA(100% Success rate)
Pak-DA
and now apparently the LMFS

and their also building India a 5th gen plane (Hal-FGFA)
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The FGFA is a PAK-FA derivative. They're the same aircraft, in a nutshell. The LFI requirement will be satisfied, as of now, by the MiG-35. While there is talk of a light 5th gen, it's unlikely something will materialize. The money and resources aren't there.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
There were multiple light weight fighter programmes in Russia aimed at developing a 5th generation fighter, but not the way the US has done it with the F-35.

The originally LFI was meant to be complementary to the MFI, but was cancelled in the early 1990s on cost grounds. The programme was re-launched as the LFS (IIRC) in 1994, but this programme was cancelled as well in 2001 in favour of the PAK-FA. MiG approached India in hope to find a new partner to develop the LFS (I-2000 proposal) but failed to persuade the Indians. The programme is subsequently non-existent anymore.

Wrt the MiG-35 it will be interesting whether the aircraft is bought, now where the aircraft has been rejected from the IAF's MMRCA competition. Up to date there are no orders for the MiG-35 from the RuAF.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The MiG-35 is based on the MiG-29M, as well as the new MiG-29K. The MiG-29M is the baseline design from which both were developed. There is an order for 45 MiG-29K for India, and an unspecified number from the AVMF (probably ~24-30 including KUB variants). So a net production run for the second gen Fulcrum platform of ~70-75 units. It would not be surprising to see an order, after this, for MiG-35 from the VVS.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
But the MiG-35 isn't fully developed and it's questionable whether the RuAF is keen to fund completion of the development and whether they want to operate once again a different equipment on their Fulcrums. In the end we'll see, but right now I wouldn't bet my rear on a Russian MiG-35 order.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I would. They've demonstrated an impressive desire to systematically purchase parallel platforms filling similar or identical niches. While it would be a lot smarter of them to eliminate Fulcrums or Foxhounds entirely and replace them with PAK-FA, this isn't going to happen.
 

Toptob

Active Member
They've demonstrated an impressive desire to systematically purchase parallel platforms filling similar or identical niches.
Is there even a logic behind that? Are they buying a mixed matched smorgasbord of Fulcrums only to keep MiG alive? I dont get that, the company clearly has very little life left in it and even less right to an existance imho. I think the impact and relative superiority of their design has been declining since the Mig-21 which IMO is maybe the most significant fighterjet of the last century.

But most Mig-29's in service do basically what an F-16A does but worse! I think the Mig-29 stems from an outdated strategy for airdefence, and even if the old soviet style of point defence was doable in todays financial climate. The Fulcrum would still be an expensive and limited beast (even in its most modern form) compared to its competitors. Its expensive to maintain, it has short range, the survival of its manufacturer is in doubt and most Fulcrum owners are thinking of retiring them. The VVS even grounded all its Fulcrums at one time.

But all my misgivings aside, why don't the VVS form a coherent strategy around their Migs? Why not upgrade them to a common standard? The SMT version seems like a very decent version and its available right now and a fleetwide upgrade program would save a lot of money in the future and give Mig some stability.

I dont understand Russian procurement policy at all though. They never really commit to anything and keep buying small batches of new developments. In the meantime they''re getting nowhere fast. All new weapon systems have pittiful orderbooks as it stands and Russia would be wise to actually go ahead with designing a light but very effective platform to replace the Mig-29 and maybe some SU-25''s in the future.

I don''t see anything of the sort happening in the next 5 to 10 years though. I think the only ones brave enough to work on a light weight 5th gen fighter in the next ten yrs will be a country like Korea or India.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Is there even a logic behind that? Are they buying a mixed matched smorgasbord of Fulcrums only to keep MiG alive? I dont get that, the company clearly has very little life left in it and even less right to an existance imho. I think the impact and relative superiority of their design has been declining since the Mig-21 which IMO is maybe the most significant fighterjet of the last century.
They've been really bad about it, I personally suspect lobbying. They buying the MiG-29K to replace the Su-33s on the Kuznetsov, which is set to undergo a refit similar to the one Gorshkov went through, removing its offensive weapons, and increasing aircraft capacity, along with upgrading all the electronics. The MiG-29SMT were purchased to save MiG, when Algeria refused them. The MiG-35 is supposed to fill the new LFI requirement, because a light 5th gen has been deemed to expensive and complicated. Which isn't untrue.

But most Mig-29's in service do basically what an F-16A does but worse! I think the Mig-29 stems from an outdated strategy for airdefence, and even if the old soviet style of point defence was doable in todays financial climate. The Fulcrum would still be an expensive and limited beast (even in its most modern form) compared to its competitors. Its expensive to maintain, it has short range, the survival of its manufacturer is in doubt and most Fulcrum owners are thinking of retiring them. The VVS even grounded all its Fulcrums at one time.
The MiG-29SMT which the VVS currently operates, and the MiG-29K which they are purchasing, are multi-role. The older MiG-29B, etc. are pretty mediocre, but they are to be replaced partially by MiG-35, partially by PAK-FA.

But all my misgivings aside, why don't the VVS form a coherent strategy around their Migs? Why not upgrade them to a common standard? The SMT version seems like a very decent version and its available right now and a fleetwide upgrade program would save a lot of money in the future and give Mig some stability.
The current plan is to phase out all 1st gen Fulcrums, with the exception of the ~28 new SMTs that the VVS got instead of Algeria, replacing them with MiG-35. A much better question is why doesn't the VVS form a coherent force structure plan, based on actual projected future needs, instead of purchasing whatever new platforms happen to get funding, and pass MoD muster.

I dont understand Russian procurement policy at all though. They never really commit to anything and keep buying small batches of new developments. In the meantime they''re getting nowhere fast. All new weapon systems have pittiful orderbooks as it stands and Russia would be wise to actually go ahead with designing a light but very effective platform to replace the Mig-29 and maybe some SU-25''s in the future.
As it stands there is not Su-25 replacement in sight. They plan on starting up production of upgraded Frogfoots. The truth is that the VVS hasn't evolved beyond narrow squadron-based mission sets. While the SMTs, SMs, and to a lesser extent MiG-31BMs they operate are technically multi-role, they have only recently (very VERY recently) acquired them, and the thinking is still along the lines of dedicated platforms for separate roles.

I don''t see anything of the sort happening in the next 5 to 10 years though. I think the only ones brave enough to work on a light weight 5th gen fighter in the next ten yrs will be a country like Korea or India.
Really the VVS needs to decide on a clear picture of what it needs, how much it needs, and where it needs them. The logical force org is PAK-FA, MiG-35, Su-34, and Su-25XX. However they're also keeping the MiG-31BM, they're also purchasing the Su-35S (to offset its development costs, and as a stopgap measure), they also purchased a few brand new Su-27SM3, and upgraded ~48-60 Su-27 to SM standard, and all these aircraft are expected to remain in service for a while to come.
 

Haavarla

Active Member
It isn't just the type and quanteties of aircraft upgraded or newly produced that matter in a long term outlined strategy.
Its more about which new course the VVS will stake out.
The RuAF have allready started the re-structuring of the whole VVS.

A lot of large airbases have been turned over to civilian ownership or just deterioating as the RuAF abanomed them

Its not just VVS that see big cuts in their orginanazation.
Just take a look at other airforce like USAF and RAF and u get the picture.

RuAF need to get the remaining ground facilities like staff quarters, maintanace hangars and shelters for protecting the aircraft from the hars enviroments(winter) up to a decent standard, it wont help if they get brand new aircraft if the airbase service support is very bad and not up to the task...

So the issue of proccuring an brand new LMFS beyond the Mig-29K and possible some Mig-35 is not realistic at present time.

Beside the VVS is clearly not that interested in a new LMFS eighter.
Many of the vanila Su-27 have seen upgrades to SM standard.
Just as Feanor pointed out, it is perhaps political driven(Mig vs Sukhoi), but i think this was more the case under the SU days..

In my opinion, Migs under the LMFS is not needed under the new VVS requirements.
I'm sure someone in the higher MOD and RuAF system has worked out the fact that Russia is still a huge Country and need aircraft that have the endurance of a Flankers and Fullback capabilities. Consider the poor tanker status in in the VVS.

The remaining Sq of SM will have to be able to high-tail to another region to re-enforce the assets there should the situation occur.
Can a LMFS aircraft do that?
I think not, so its not that important that any LMFS is cheaper to procure and operate.
VVS should go by operating Heavy interceptor types like Flanker and Pak-Fa in the future.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think they need to phase out all 4th gen platforms for the PAK-FA, possibly leaving the Su-25s and Su-34s in service as lower-cost dedicated strike and ground attack, over the long term.
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
wow...
everyone on this forum REALLY knows their stuff...if i didnt know better i would think you guys are the ones who make these deals and go to the factory and make them yourself.

well instead of starting a new thread i will just ask my question in this one.

what is the state of the russian air force today? at first i thought it was good because the projects they got coming up but in this thread im seeing all these russian companies in the hole...

So honestly Mikoyan and Tupolev are doing that bad?
btw can someone tell me what the point of the mig 35 is? only 3 were built i believe and thats it..

and is Sukhoi the only company thats doing ok?(im assuming their doing ok since their making Pak-fa and Pak-da)
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
No actual MiG-35 have been built. I believe there are two prototypes (converted MiG-29M/M2), that's it.

Sukhoi is doing great, and expanding. Helicopter-wise KAPO and U-UAZ are doing well, with Mi-8 derivatives, Mi-35M, and Mi-28N. MiG is struggling, Tupolev is barely alive. But this is industry-wise.

In terms of the state of the airforce what are you interested in?
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
No actual MiG-35 have been built. I believe there are two prototypes (converted MiG-29M/M2), that's it.

Sukhoi is doing great, and expanding. Helicopter-wise KAPO and U-UAZ are doing well, with Mi-8 derivatives, Mi-35M, and Mi-28N. MiG is struggling, Tupolev is barely alive. But this is industry-wise.

In terms of the state of the airforce what are you interested in?
so is Mig so bad that they are gona close down?
and im very shocked tupolev is in the hole i really thought many countries like their transportation/ refueling aircraft but i guess not.

and im interested in how combat ready they are...

i recently read the war report on the 2008 south osettia war on how they they could not mantain any air superiority through the whole conflict....how can you not maintain that when your enemy has an extremely weak air force, untrained pilots and their using all your old equipment:confused: that kinda made me loose respect for russian air force.

and they also used tu-23's and su-24's...why in the world would they even still be flying those old relics???

im guessing they would get owned hard against a modern air force...


and this is in no way my country vs your country post, im russian living in the US and i dont take sides i just like to know the capability of countries is all
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
DOH!!
i got Tupolev and Illushin mixed up(btw whats the state is Illushin in financially)

and i guess Tupolev would be doing bad all i know about them is the TU bombers like the TU-160, and i havent seen upcoming new projects from them
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
so is Mig so bad that they are gona close down?
and im very shocked tupolev is in the hole i really thought many countries like their transportation/ refueling aircraft but i guess not.

and im interested in how combat ready they are...

i recently read the war report on the 2008 south osettia war on how they they could not mantain any air superiority through the whole conflict....how can you not maintain that when your enemy has an extremely weak air force, untrained pilots and their using all your old equipment:confused: that kinda made me loose respect for russian air force.

and they also used tu-23's and su-24's...why in the world would they even still be flying those old relics???

im guessing they would get owned hard against a modern air force...


and this is in no way my country vs your country post, im russian living in the US and i dont take sides i just like to know the capability of countries is all

Mig isn't in that bad of a shape really, they are not just getting orders like Sukhoi, the Mig-29K deal with India and later the Russian Navy did bring some good business, but thats about it for new orders, they are now mostly upgrading all the Mig-29s already sold to different countries.

Now I have a question, if any nation was to order a new sq. of Mig-29SMTs, then would they be nely built or just be upgrades of already existing mig-29s in storage?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
so is Mig so bad that they are gona close down?
and im very shocked tupolev is in the hole i really thought many countries like their transportation/ refueling aircraft but i guess not.
No, MiG is not closing down. They have solid orders for the MiG-29K for a couple of years to come, at least.

and im interested in how combat ready they are...

i recently read the war report on the 2008 south osettia war on how they they could not mantain any air superiority through the whole conflict....how can you not maintain that when your enemy has an extremely weak air force, untrained pilots and their using all your old equipment:confused: that kinda made me loose respect for russian air force.
They did manage to maintain air superiority. The Georgian air force performed one air strike during the entire war, using Mi-24 helos. However whether this was because the Georgians never attempted to challenge it, or whether the VVS presence was indeed sufficient deterrent, is debatable.

and they also used tu-23's and su-24's...why in the world would they even still be flying those old relics???
The Su-24 is supposed to be replaced by the Su-34 within the next decade, but it's a slow process. The Tu-22M3 will remain in service for a long time, upgraded to Tu-22M5.

im guessing they would get owned hard against a modern air force.
Few of the European Air Forces are large enough on their own. The Chinese are still behind technology-wise. Not to mention the new doctrine relegates all those states to nuclear deterrence. When it comes to dealing with FSU states, the VVS is plenty.

The upgrade and acquisition programs they have in place should allow them to remain relevant through 2020.
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
^^^^
why is the tu-22 going to remain in serive for a long time?

i hate that plane its soo old and ugly


even ukraine dismantled almost all of theirs from the left overs of USSR
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
There is no replacement for it as is. It's likely that the PAK-DA replace Tu-22M3, Tu-95MS, and Tu-160 but it's a long way away.

The T-60S was the original planned replacement for the Tu-22M, but it's been cancelled.
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
There is no replacement for it as is. It's likely that the PAK-DA replace Tu-22M3, Tu-95MS, and Tu-160 but it's a long way away.

The T-60S was the original planned replacement for the Tu-22M, but it's been cancelled.
isnt it just a bomber? they really have no other plane outside the tu 160 that can do that?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Tu-22M3 is less expensive and easier to operate then a Tu-160. I wouldn't be surprised if the PAK-DA eventually replaced all Long-Range aviation planes. They might also create a new long-range bombers to complement the PAK-DA strategic bombers.
 
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