The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[riksavage]

Good point, though perhaps 1 Rifles could have them... I think we should have a medium weight rapid reaction brigade alongside the RM and Paras that could be deployed either by air or sea. These could also be part of their equipment inventory.

I can't see the army commando (Rifles) surviving the next round of cuts post 2015. 3 Commando now consists of 40,42,45 & 30 Commando, with the downgrading of the amphib fleet to (operational) 1 x Albion, 2 x Bay and Ocean, the extra army commando becomes somewhat redundant.

HCR supports 16 Air Assault with Scimitar/Samson etc., I understand they also work with 3 Commando undertaking a similar role - recce and FAC duties. The Scimitar replacement, ASCOD + 40mm should provide an ideal light tank working along side Viking, also crewed by HCR. The only drawback being it does not have the same amphib capability. The next round of cuts could see one of the armoured projects cancelled, hopefully it will be Warrior upgrade rather than FRES Recce. We are getting to the stage now where you might as well buy a new AFV (ASCOD based), rather than upgrade Warrior due to the fact it keeps getting pushed back, plus they have been worked pretty hard.

If you read/listen to Forgotten Voices of the Falklands, the Scorpion/Scimitar's of the Blues and Royals where looked upon as the 'Ginger headed Stepson' by many of the infantry CO's, they just didn't appreciate its worth. Unfortunately many of the attacks where against mountain ridges that restricted usage, not because of ground pressure issues, but because of rock formations, mine fields and gradient of attack. When finally used near the end of the campaign their night vision capability coupled with 30mm/76mm firepower was devastating. Had the Argentines not surrendered they would have been critical in clearing Stanley because the artillery would have been severely restricted due to the fear of civi casualties.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Slightly off topic, but why did the RM never go for any Assault Amphibious Vehicles such as the USMC's AAV-7A1? I know that they have the VIKING (or now BvS 10) but it is much more lightweight. Something like this would have surely helped in the falklands and a similar vehicle in my opinion would be useful now.

The Royal Marines actually man all the landing craft for the Royal Navy and have operated extensive fleets of various amphibious vehicles in the past and present. The reason they don’t have Amtracs has a lot to do with the kind of amphibious operations they were involved in. The primary theatre for the RM has been north west Europe and Norway. In these waters compared to the Pacific the requirement for amphibious vehicles is higher sea keeping capability than surf zone crossing. Amtracs were mostly used in north west Europe as river crossing assets. Since WWII the RM has abandoned its amphibious assault capability and focused on amphibious manouevre. So they have had less need for beach crossing under armour.

 

[riksavage]

The Royal Marines actually man all the landing craft for the Royal Navy and have operated extensive fleets of various amphibious vehicles in the past and present. The reason they don’t have Amtracs has a lot to do with the kind of amphibious operations they were involved in. The primary theatre for the RM has been north west Europe and Norway. In these waters compared to the Pacific the requirement for amphibious vehicles is higher sea keeping capability than surf zone crossing. Amtracs were mostly used in north west Europe as river crossing assets. Since WWII the RM has abandoned its amphibious assault capability and focused on amphibious manouevre. So they have had less need for beach crossing under armour.

Following on from Abraham the RM see themselves more as strategic raiders rather than full frontal assault troops, they simply don't have the kit to undertake a contested landing against a defended beachhead, unless in direct support of the all singing and dancing USMC. Look at the Falklands campaign, they disregarded a direct attack near Stanley and went for likely non-contested beachheads to allow for maximum levels of force to be brought ashore before advancing to meet the enemy.

The SBS motto, 'not by strength by guile' is a perfect motto for all of 3 Commando brigade, they have to think creatively to offset the lack of overwhelming force. Over the next few years the RM's operating doctrine will be more akin to Australia's (strategic raiding - Sierra Leone type scenario) as both countries will end up having similar capabilties (but with the UK having slightly more deployable boots).

 

[vbombv]

Some nice images of the T26 on the Bae site:

Global Combat Ship - BAE Systems

They hint at a 127mm gun "such as 127mm". Mission bay looks usefull..

 

[1805]

Following on from Abraham the RM see themselves more as strategic raiders rather than full frontal assault troops, they simply don't have the kit to undertake a contested landing against a defended beachhead, unless in direct support of the all singing and dancing USMC. Look at the Falklands campaign, they disregarded a direct attack near Stanley and went for likely non-contested beachheads to allow for maximum levels of force to be brought ashore before advancing to meet the enemy.

The SBS motto, 'not by strength by guile' is a perfect motto for all of 3 Commando brigade, they have to think creatively to offset the lack of overwhelming force. Over the next few years the RM's operating doctrine will be more akin to Australia's (strategic raiding - Sierra Leone type scenario) as both countries will end up having similar capabilties (but with the UK having slightly more deployable boots).

Much as though I am a big supporter of the RM, I think there is a danger in them being seen as the sole users of the assault fleet. In a different way their relationship to the Army, could be a similar issue to the FAA to the RAF. The RN really needs to show it's a joint force about supporting the Army. One of the few upsides of losing the Harriers looks like we will see the RN forging closer links with the AAC and its Apaches, in a similar way rather than trying to give the RM heavier kit, it should operate with the Army's and try and get it's requirements included in their kit.

 

[1805]

If you read/listen to Forgotten Voices of the Falklands, the Scorpion/Scimitar's of the Blues and Royals where looked upon as the 'Ginger headed Stepson' by many of the infantry CO's, they just didn't appreciate its worth. Unfortunately many of the attacks where against mountain ridges that restricted usage, not because of ground pressure issues, but because of rock formations, mine fields and gradient of attack. When finally used near the end of the campaign their night vision capability coupled with 30mm/76mm firepower was devastating. Had the Argentines not surrendered they would have been critical in clearing Stanley because the artillery would have been severely restricted due to the fear of civi casualties.

Is that a reflection on their real worth or the limited understand of you average non- mechanised infantry CO's of armoured warfare? Also a Scorpion/Scimitar is a completely different kettle of fish to a Cheftain. The Cheftain would have been at the centre of a campaign, with the infantry in a support role and I suspect enabled a lot of these mountain positions to have been bypassed.

Looking at today the RN should exercise regularly with MBT. I can't see it would hurt to load a 30-40 into Bays/Bulwark and do some very public exercies in the Med at the moment. Help with relations with: the politicans, Army and Libya. It would also have the advantage that they would be in the right place.

 

[riksavage]

Is that a reflection on their real worth or the limited understand of you average non- mechanised infantry CO's of armoured warfare? Also a Scorpion/Scimitar is a completely different kettle of fish to a Cheftain. The Cheftain would have been at the centre of a campaign, with the infantry in a support role and I suspect enabled a lot of these mountain positions to have been bypassed.

Looking at today the RN should exercise regularly with MBT. I can't see it would hurt to load a 30-40 into Bays/Bulwark and do some very public exercies in the Med at the moment. Help with relations with: the politicans, Army and Libya. It would also have the advantage that they would be in the right place.

Back in 82, the RM & Para's very rarely worked with armour, today is very different. Unfortunately at the time the Blues and Royals vehicles were never probably integrated into the planning until the latter stages of the campaign and were largely led by junior troop commanders with little influence. CO's devised their fire support plans based on what they were familiar with (mortars, 105mm, Milan), they failed to understand the versatility of a light tank with less ground pressure than a fully equipped soldier.

Thankfully the services are far more purple and flexible these days having to operate as tri-service battle groups on actual operations. Plus for the first time in a long time 3 Commando protected Viking's can keep up with heavy/light armour. Selected FOB's in A-Stan have Scimitar attached to provide direct fire-support, the crews working hand-in-glove with the resident Commando Company.

The current RM deployment is supported by not just army operated Scimitar, but MLRS, Warthog, Mastiff, Ridgeback etc. etc. The trend is to assign a unit (say RTR) to operate supporting MRAP vehicles, leaving the infantry/marines free to undertake their traditional role. This joint working experience has allowed light units such as the Paras and RM to better appreciate the usefulness of armour (including that provided by Danish Leopards), hopefully this won't be forgotten and carried over to peace time training cycles.

 

[overlander]

Steel cut for the second Navy super-carrier.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operati...-class/cv-class-news/steel_cut_for_the_se.htm

I hope that at least 1 of the carriers will be operational with the R.N. but with a decent airwing not only 12 fighters as planned, dificult but I hope british politicians understand the importance of these assets.

 

[Lindermyer]

Is that a reflection on their real worth or the limited understand of you average non- mechanised infantry CO's of armoured warfare? Also a Scorpion/Scimitar is a completely different kettle of fish to a Cheftain. The Cheftain would have been at the centre of a campaign, with the infantry in a support role and I suspect enabled a lot of these mountain positions to have been bypassed.

Looking at today the RN should exercise regularly with MBT. I can't see it would hurt to load a 30-40 into Bays/Bulwark and do some very public exercies in the Med at the moment. Help with relations with: the politicans, Army and Libya. It would also have the advantage that they would be in the right place.

Not wishing to derail this thread further but

Cheiften was not an option in 82 quite aside from the logistics issues the terrain on the falklands would not support heavy armour.

To be honest outside of this thread I have never heard any one suggest cheiften should have been taken.

On topic is there any more news on type 26

 

[puma boy]

The Mod is just trying to get the price down , BAE wanted £500m per hull the Mod wants to pay max £300m per hull.

From what I hear they will be built in 3 Batch's of 4 and yes the Mod wants 13 but will only get funding for 12 .

And 4 of could be Diesel powered to save costs.

The Royal Navy wants a strong ASW fit after losing Nimrod Mr4.
The Air Defence side will not be great as thats what Type 45 is there for.

It will only have 12 SAM'S in a c2 unit.

 

[StevoJH]

1) C2 is dead.
2) 4 being diesel powered makes no sense
3) Wont have 12 SAM's as the VLS cells come in blocks of 8.
4) It was always planned that 8 of the ships would get the TAS from the upgraded T23's.

 

[Repulse]

The Mod is just trying to get the price down , BAE wanted £500m per hull the Mod wants to pay max £300m...

I am assuming the 300m does not include design costs etc. I dread to think what corners will be cut to get to that price.

If money is really that tight I would buy 2 more T45, and upgrade all 8 to be GP with harpoon and TAS. I would then buy a larger number of cheap light frigates...

 

[StobieWan]

I am assuming the 300k does not include design costs etc. I dread to think what corners will be cut to get to that price.

If money is really that tight I would buy 2 more T45, and upgrade all 8 to be GP with harpoon and TAS. I would then buy a larger number of cheap light frigates...

Much of the expensive fit will be material recovered from the Type 23 - the radar, missiles, silos and TAS for instance. That should allow a fairly capable Frigate to be built to that price.


Ian

 

[Repulse]

Much of the expensive fit will be material recovered from the Type 23 - the radar, missiles, silos and TAS for instance. That should allow a fairly capable Frigate to be built to that price.


Ian

Fair point, but I'm still not sold on the T26. The cost of the new VLS and Artisan radar for the T23 still needs to come from somewhere. If we put the same radar on the CVF as is used on the T45, and did away with Artisan altogether, I wonder how much money would be saved...

 

[Hambo]

Fair point, but I'm still not sold on the T26. The cost of the new VLS and Artisan radar for the T23 still needs to come from somewhere. If we put the same radar on the CVF as is used on the T45, and did away with Artisan altogether, I wonder how much money would be saved...

Im not sure what kind of logic that is? I assume you mean SAMPSON which I believe was planned to be fitted before the cost of the carriers went up for various reasons. There seems little point fitting a very expensive system if you are going to have a T45 alongside anyway.
Artisan seems a very cost effective and capable system so im not sure why you would want to do away with it? Unless you want to soldier on with old equipment. its designed to be fitted to the T23, Bulwark, Albion, Ocean, QE and POW, quick to fit and has the same footprint of 996 . Just as important if the UK is going to stay in the radar business, it needs a home market for its companies products (as long as they dont take the piss on cost too much). the harsh reality is probably that we can afford anything more expensive especially as 18 ships will need a more modern radar than those the RN uses now. I think the contract to develop Artisan was £100million form the BAe site, that doesnt seem too high for a product that should have an export potential.

The later T23 will receive CAMM as a)it should be more capable and b)its probably cheaper to fit a new system then continually upgrade something several decades old on a smaller and smaller number of ships. It will be cheaper to support and operate Aster and Camm than Aster camm and seawolf.

We need a new escort, UK shipbuilding needs a new escort and it needs to be a proper high end warship. Cheap and cheerful is a recipe for disaster in my opinion, because once you get them and go along with the idea that the future lies in lots of cheap hulls rather than 20 or so high end vessels, then thats all the politicians will let you have, cheap deathtraps the first time they go into a warzone.

 

[Repulse]

Couldn't find numbers for Artisan, but if it's in the order of 100m then I can see the logic. Though i am always wary of the argument that if we do not do something british industrial capability will suffer. Maybe in times of plentiful cash, but now every penny counts. Also the RN should get what it needs foremost, not BAE.

I believe that the RN needs a high end core of GP vessels and a larger number of lower end frigates. Going half way gives you neither the numbers you need nor the capability.

 

[StobieWan]

Fair point, but I'm still not sold on the T26. The cost of the new VLS and Artisan radar for the T23 still needs to come from somewhere. If we put the same radar on the CVF as is used on the T45, and did away with Artisan altogether, I wonder how much money would be saved...

Artisan has been developed though - it's money spent (or milk spilled, depending on your viewpoint)

If you don't go with Artisan and CAMM, what do you do with the Type 23 when SeaWolf goes end of life in about 2016 onwards?

We need something to put in the 23's which remain our most capable all rounders or they're toothless.

Also, what do we then fit to Type 26 for radar and missiles?

As far as I can see what the RN is proposing to do in terms of mid life updates for the 23's and then porting that kit to the 26's is technically sensible, financially prudent and low risk.


Remember, 26 is still set to have strike length cells, that very useful mission bay and a nice big flight deck. I'm gagging to see 'em in the water to be honest.

Ian

 

[kev 99]

Remember, 26 is still set to have strike length cells, that very useful mission bay and a nice big flight deck. I'm gagging to see 'em in the water to be honest.

Ian

Not sure if I agree with this, I know the RN want strike length for T26, whether they will get it or not is another matter entirely and I'm not hopeful. Other than that I couldn't agree more with your comments.

 

[StobieWan]

Not sure if I agree with this, I know the RN want strike length for T26, whether they will get it or not is another matter entirely and I'm not hopeful. Other than that I couldn't agree more with your comments.

They're still (allegedly) in the design but of course, the design hasn't yet been frozen and anything could happen. I guess the space will be worked in and it'll be available for an export order or a "fitted for, not with" contingency. I don't know and truthfully, it's just not been decided. Right now, it's still on the shopping list. Fingers crossed eh ?

Ian

 

[StobieWan]

I believe that the RN needs a high end core of GP vessels and a larger number of lower end frigates. Going half way gives you neither the numbers you need nor the capability.

It's an argument that's been voiced before but judging from the comments during the HMPC discussion, the "low end" options are unrealistically costed by their advocates.

Recall, we went round the houses, using real numbers for real ships and I don't recall anyone in the "light and cheap" corner wanting to actually give up much in terms of capability, just make them a bit smaller, in the belief this would be magically cheaper.

I think a balanced group of decent size frigates is realistically the best way forward, filled out by HMPC, and I'd like to see that go to more than the 12 talked about as I feel they'll be useful in many situations and take the pressure off the high end escorts.

Overall, 13 Type 26 sounds useful and capable however,

Ian