The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

riksavage

Banned Member
Lynx can carry 4 x Sea Skua.

Merlin are getting optical targeting equipment as part of the capability sustainment programme, anyone know if this would enable integration of Sea Skua or it's replacement in future?

Hambo you are correct, the Spear requirement is supposedly being built upon the back of the FASGW(H), but current mock-ups of the Spear capability 3 look like a mini Stormshadow.

Business Model # 1: Team CW | SLDInfo
Images of the Naval version of Wildcat show eight missiles, which look similar in size to Brimstone. Looking at Spear (marinized Brimstone), having the potential to carry eight would be a real step-change.

I was under the impression Wildcat production had already begun following successful trials. With T45 currently lacking Harpoon , Wildcat + Spear will be a must have asset. Anyone have any idea about the range, exceeds or meets that of SeaSkua?

PoW steel cutting ceremony today.
 

kev 99

Member
Images of the Naval version of Wildcat show eight missiles, which look similar in size to Brimstone. Looking at Spear (marinized Brimstone), having the potential to carry eight would be a real step-change.

I was under the impression Wildcat production had already begun following successful trials. With T45 currently lacking Harpoon , Wildcat + Spear will be a must have asset.

PoW steel cutting ceremony today.
Spear isn't a marinised Brimstone, have a look at the article I posted earlier.

The weapon the naval version of Wildcat will carry is the FASGW(H) that Hambo mentioned.

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/docs_wsw/RUB_287/fasgw-anl_june2010.pdf
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
As a heads up, I think the new tactical environment for the US Navy will be that most versions of the extended range version of the SM-2 will be eventually replaced with the SM-6 for all Aegis equipped ships. The Sm-6 is now being delivered to the fleet which has both semi-active homing as is the SM-2 and fully active homing features, giving it an effective 200 + mile range of operations beyond the line of sight when used with remote launch mode when it is queued from a forward observer of ether a E-2D or some drone or someday even a new as yet to be designed satellite.

As to your comment,

“Better to ask how a Burke will cope with multiple attacks on a single beam, simultaneously - it's a more credible scenario and probably worries the USN more.”

This comment leaves me somewhat confused as to what you mean by the term a single beam. Do you mean a single beam coverage of the AN/SPY-1D radar (as to its munity-functions track while scan power sharing capacities) or do you mean a saturation attack coming from one direction?

In case one, true that the more targets that you have to track coming in from one direction, the more power you have to use within a smaller volume of space and thus the less power you have available for additional detection of new targets. One AN/SPY-1D has one transmitter that uses two phase shifting antennae faces which covers about 195 degrees of space around the ship, there is some overlap. But each Burke has two AN’SPY-1D’s. Usually when operating in the AA mode, but not the ABM mode, there is plenty of power to do both, it is a megawatt radar. However, if necessary, just orient the ship so that both radars can cover the same attack vector, inconvenient but doable.

In case two, both of the SM-2 versions and the SM-6, when used in the semi-active homing mode, are command guided until sixty seconds before intercept giving the three fire control illuminators plenty of capacity to have many missiles in flight all at the same time. The number of targets that can be engaged at the same time is a function of the number of S-band commands link channels, the computing power of the fire control system, and the software. Information that is not available in the open sources.

I was talking about the final illumination phase - I know SPY1 can guide SM2's etc for most of the distance to the target but in the final moments of the engagement, one of the three target illuminators has to be pointed at the target and, for best effect, kept pointed at it til impact.

By "beam" I meant "from one direction" - fundamentally, a Burke's got three illuminators available, and from most directions other than head on, at least one of them is masked at any time, leaving you two to cover any given direction.

I know it's possible to time slice between targets and I'm certainly given the impression that the motors on the illuminators are pretty hefty bits of kit allowing for them to be trained quite rapidly, but it's still a bottleneck.


" One AN/SPY-1D has one transmitter that uses two phase shifting antennae faces which covers about 195 degrees of space around the ship, there is some overlap. But each Burke has two AN’SPY-1D’s"

Not following you - SPY1-D has one transmitter and can therefore scan on one face at a time. SPY1-D(V) can scan on two faces per transmitter.SPY1-A/B carries two transmitters, and scans one transmitter per face. As far as I understand it, the Burke carries one complete SPY-1D comprising the four panel faces and transmitter etc - not two?

Ian
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I would imagine the latest RN destroyer will be able to do this as well. However, her missiles wouldn't be able to "reach" as far as the SM2s/SM6s, so that in a "Red Storm Rising" kind of a scenario, it will be totally defensive, i.e. just shooting at inbound missiles or "glide bombs" like the JSOW. So without friendly AC, these new destroyers will NOT be able to hit back against enemy AC launching Harpoons and JSOWs?
You'd need aircraft equipped with missiles or glide bombs with a reach longer than Aster-30, say 100km+ and pilots willing to take the chance that as they approach, they don't find there's another ship sitting right under them that they've not detected. This "red storm rising" scenario is the sort of thing that looks great on a table top but gets messy very rapidly in real life when enemy units don't show up where they're supposed to be and suddenly your inbound bombers are taking hits from other units, or the ships you're attacking have moved etc.

Ian
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Images of the Naval version of Wildcat show eight missiles, which look similar in size to Brimstone. Looking at Spear (marinized Brimstone), having the potential to carry eight would be a real step-change.
SPEAR (Selective Precision Guided Effects at Range) isn't a single missile, it's a set of capabilities, to be met with a range of missiles. Dual Mode Brimstone is being developed further to meet one SPEAR requirement, 'Capability 2 Block 1'. Capability 1 may be met by a development of Paveway IV. Capability 3 is longer-range than Brimstone, for fast jets including F-35. Capability 4 seems to refer to Storm Shadow upgrades.

MBDA Team Complex Weapons pages

FASGW/ANL, also known as FASGW(H), is the joint UK/France Sea Skua replacement. Twice the range & IIR seeker. The mock-ups look exactly like Sea Skua. Previously marketed by MBDA as Sea Skua 2.

LMM (re-using a large part of Starstreak) is FASGW(L).
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The ideal weapon system for defeating the low level fast jets is a radar guided, rapid fire 76mm gun with IR prox fuses. If the RN had a Tiger class cruiser sitting at the head of San Carlos Water nothing would have gotten past it. Phalanx production began in 1978 and the RN sent Illustrious to the Falklands to relive Invincible fitted with two Phalanx. With an Argentine to schedule invasion in the southern summer of 82/83 the British would be forced to delay the departure of the task force by 6-8 weeks to bring back into commission key ships like the LPDs and Hermes. During this time it is conceivable that quite a few Phalanx units could be purchased from the US and fitted to at least all the key ships (CV and LPD). There would also be additional Seawolf systems which was more than capable of destroying low flying aircraft. Combined with quite a few more Harriers, Sea King AEW and more tactically and technically astute leadership and the Argentine air forces would have had a much harder time of it.
It would have been very interesting if the UK had gone for the four proposed 18000 ton missile cruisers they dropped to build the County class DLGs. Type 984 CDS, Seaslug with two directors, two twin Mk26 6" and 4 twin Mk6 3" with the facility to replace a pair of the 3" mounts with Tartar at a later date.

Apparently the reason the County was built instead of the cruisers was the desire to get a greater number of missile ships to sea at the earliest opportunity.

Imagine a pair of these cruisers deploying with the task force in 1982, one could have ridden shotgun with the carriers while the other could have gone in with the amphibs to provide NGS and air defence with her remaining pair of 3" and Tartar / Standard.

Shipbucket - Never Built Designs/Great Britain/GB BB GW96A_ Hood 1.gif

Numbers of missile ships could have been built up through the conversion of Battle or Daring Class destroyers into DDGs through the fitment of Tartar in a similar fashion to the French T47 AAW modernisation from the early to mid 60s. Some of these could have still been in service in 82.
 

Hambo

New Member
It would have been very interesting if the UK had gone for the four proposed 18000 ton missile cruisers they dropped to build the County class DLGs. Type 984 CDS, Seaslug with two directors, two twin Mk26 6" and 4 twin Mk6 3" with the facility to replace a pair of the 3" mounts with Tartar at a later date.

Apparently the reason the County was built instead of the cruisers was the desire to get a greater number of missile ships to sea at the earliest opportunity.

Imagine a pair of these cruisers deploying with the task force in 1982, one could have ridden shotgun with the carriers while the other could have gone in with the amphibs to provide NGS and air defence with her remaining pair of 3" and Tartar / Standard.

Shipbucket - Never Built Designs/Great Britain/GB BB GW96A_ Hood 1.gif

Numbers of missile ships could have been built up through the conversion of Battle or Daring Class destroyers into DDGs through the fitment of Tartar in a similar fashion to the French T47 AAW modernisation from the early to mid 60s. Some of these could have still been in service in 82.
But were the 984 and the 3inch gun directors any better close in to shore, enclosed by hills as in San carlos/Falkland Sound than the systems in use at the time? if not then such a big ship is just as vulnerable as the Type 21/leanders etc that took hits.

With little warning as Skyhawks and Daggers scream in then isnt it likely that the 3 inch guns will fail to get them all resulting in the ship getting hit by bombs and 30mm cannon fire all the same? Particularly as the argentine pilots werent shy about taking on the warships as opposed to the softer (and more desirable) amphibs and supply ships.

Sea slug and Sea Dart were not intended to take down ultra low fliers, but as I understand it were as good as their contemporaries so would Tartar or the early block of standard really have been any better at dealing with the low level bomb attack or an incoming exocet?

As i see it, that sort of ship would be just as vulnerable, simply because the electronics at the time were limited hence the cost spent on sea wolf to try and fill the gaps in close in defence. It still seems the better way to defend ships at that time (and today) is with fighters and preferably AEW , as once enemy aircraft get in close there is a fair chance something will hit the ship.
 

mrgeorgeallison

New Member
Good to see HMS PoW will be converted to CATOBAR, every news source covering the start of the PoW build explicitly states it will. Also, Dr Fox seems to imply they have decided to keep the second carrier in extended readiness to rotate with the active carrier. :)
 

fretburner

Banned Member
You'd need aircraft equipped with missiles or glide bombs with a reach longer than Aster-30, say 100km+ and pilots willing to take the chance that as they approach, they don't find there's another ship sitting right under them that they've not detected. This "red storm rising" scenario is the sort of thing that looks great on a table top but gets messy very rapidly in real life when enemy units don't show up where they're supposed to be and suddenly your inbound bombers are taking hits from other units, or the ships you're attacking have moved etc.

Ian
I guess the RN isn't too worried about it eh - the Red Storm Rising scenario?

I was just thinking of possible conflicts the RN could be in, namely, Falklands and Gibraltar. Should Argentina and Spain try to retake these lands, they're going to have to deal with the Navy and Airforce Fighters of these countries firing Exocets and Harpoons at their destroyers. Not that the British are going to be defeated or anything, but they could suffer serious casualties and ships sunk. Afterall, the Argentines did succeed to sink 4 or more ships back in the Falklands War.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Spain is in range of the UK with tanking, not that you would ever expect Gibraltar to desend to actual war, at least not anytime soon.

Argentina, well...have a look at what air forces they actually have active. Even if they somehow managed to take the falklands before the Typhoons were reinforced to a full squadron and a light infantry brigade flew south, well, I don't think it would end all that well for them.

The one issue that is currently present though, is that the RN does not have the capability of shooting down MPA's that are loitering at long range and high altitude. That is probably the greatest cost to the RN of the Retirement off the Harrier.
 

fretburner

Banned Member
MPA = Maritime Patrol Aircraft?

How is it that the Typhoons won't be able to do what the Harriers can? Or are you saying this because Harriers will be on Carriers/Amphib ships?
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was just thinking of possible conflicts the RN could be in, namely, Falklands and Gibraltar. Should Argentina and Spain try to retake these lands, they're going to have to deal with the Navy and Airforce Fighters of these countries firing Exocets and Harpoons at their destroyers.
Have a look at the range of Exocet and then Harpoon. I believe both are within the range of Aster-30.

The USN's range requirements were set from the perceived need to engage high flying heavy bombers launching very long range missiles at some distance. There's not a lot of that sort of system available any more and we're unlikely to face a threat like that on our own (basically, China or Russia!)

Ian
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
MPA = Maritime Patrol Aircraft?

How is it that the Typhoons won't be able to do what the Harriers can? Or are you saying this because Harriers will be on Carriers/Amphib ships?
Correct, because they do not currently have carrier based fixed wing aircraft.
 

Hambo

New Member
Although not to do with the RN here is a link from the BBC on the CdG, highlighting that its a capability we will lack for a decade. Something that perhaps should be used by the hierarchy of the RN to fight their case, if even the BBC team can see the value, then why isnt it championed more widely? maybe the French navy will be more important in the future of the Royal navy than any of our weak leaders.

BBC News - On board France's flagship aircraft carrier off Libya
 

1805

New Member
It would have been very interesting if the UK had gone for the four proposed 18000 ton missile cruisers they dropped to build the County class DLGs. Type 984 CDS, Seaslug with two directors, two twin Mk26 6" and 4 twin Mk6 3" with the facility to replace a pair of the 3" mounts with Tartar at a later date.

Apparently the reason the County was built instead of the cruisers was the desire to get a greater number of missile ships to sea at the earliest opportunity.

Imagine a pair of these cruisers deploying with the task force in 1982, one could have ridden shotgun with the carriers while the other could have gone in with the amphibs to provide NGS and air defence with her remaining pair of 3" and Tartar / Standard.

Shipbucket - Never Built Designs/Great Britain/GB BB GW96A_ Hood 1.gif

Numbers of missile ships could have been built up through the conversion of Battle or Daring Class destroyers into DDGs through the fitment of Tartar in a similar fashion to the French T47 AAW modernisation from the early to mid 60s. Some of these could have still been in service in 82.
I struggle to see how a pair of cruisers armed with a useless Sea Slug would be any better than a County Class similarly limited. You could argue the 6" would be better at softening up, but personally I can't see why the army didn't just take 20 Cheftain's then they wouldn't have had to worry so much about land based opposition.

It's a strange thing but the British Army only seem to see MBT as relevant if the enemy have them.

I agree about the 3" twins but you could have got a lot more of those at sea if the Type 12/Leanders (as the RCN did) had been fitted with them instead of the 4.5" twin.
 

Hambo

New Member
I struggle to see how a pair of cruisers armed with a useless Sea Slug would be any better than a County Class similarly limited. You could argue the 6" would be better at softening up, but personally I can't see why the army didn't just take 20 Cheftain's then they wouldn't have had to worry so much about land based opposition.

It's a strange thing but the British Army only seem to see MBT as relevant if the enemy have them.

I agree about the 3" twins but you could have got a lot more of those at sea if the Type 12/Leanders (as the RCN did) had been fitted with them instead of the 4.5" twin.
55 tonne Chieftains on the marshy, mountainous terrain in the Falklands? Really? Genius. Surely you jest.
 

rip

New Member
I was talking about the final illumination phase - I know SPY1 can guide SM2's etc for most of the distance to the target but in the final moments of the engagement, one of the three target illuminators has to be pointed at the target and, for best effect, kept pointed at it til impact.

By "beam" I meant "from one direction" - fundamentally, a Burke's got three illuminators available, and from most directions other than head on, at least one of them is masked at any time, leaving you two to cover any given direction.

I know it's possible to time slice between targets and I'm certainly given the impression that the motors on the illuminators are pretty hefty bits of kit allowing for them to be trained quite rapidly, but it's still a bottleneck.


" One AN/SPY-1D has one transmitter that uses two phase shifting antennae faces which covers about 195 degrees of space around the ship, there is some overlap. But each Burke has two AN’SPY-1D’s"

Not following you - SPY1-D has one transmitter and can therefore scan on one face at a time. SPY1-D(V) can scan on two faces per transmitter.SPY1-A/B carries two transmitters, and scans one transmitter per face. As far as I understand it, the Burke carries one complete SPY-1D comprising the four panel faces and transmitter etc - not two?

Ian
I hope I don’t bore you guys with explaining how thing really work. Power management of array type radars is a very complicated thing because they do so many different things but they do them sequentially, with tradeoffs of RF power, beam shape, scan speed, scan type, dwell time, duty cycle, pulse-width, and even more. The general rule for all kinds of radars is a simple one, the configuration of factors that makes it easier to detect a target, will also mean that the information you receive from that target using that configuration gets directly less precise, as the odds of detecting a targets increases. The information you will have on a targets size, range, height, speed and tracking data (refresh rate) will be sacrificed so as to increase the chances of first detection (it is mainly a function of average power and time on target). That is why in the past it required specialized radars for these different functions. The fact that some of these parameters are reconfigurable on the fly within phase array type radars does not mean that there are not still tradeoffs but most problems within radar systems can be made much easier with the addition of more power and then even more power, there is never too much power until you start interfering with other systems on your own ship, which has been known to happen.


To tell the truth in my earlier post I was using the Ticonderoga class cruiser as my model and it did not even accrue to me that the Burke used only one transmitter like the AN/SPY-1F. I just assumed it was the same, which was stupid, sorry. This mistake I freely admit, but the illumination problem as you put it, is not however the bottle neck that you think it is. The missiles themselves cannot all be fired simultaneously and nether will their arrival at their targets occur simultaneously. When you see multiple firings in close proximity from a ship it is usually from different cell groups. There is a small but real time lag between missile launches from the same cell groups so that they do not interfere with each other. The powerful exhaust blast of one missile could knock over another missile just as it is leaving its cell if they are fired too closely together and when they are barley moving fast enough to overcome gravity they are not very flight stable. The reason that there are only three illuminators on the Burk is simply because they really don’t need any more (assuming that they are all working at the time that is).

The fire control component of the system the AN/SPG-62/63 is two radars, a tracking radar and an illumination radar working on different frequencies sharing the same antenna system. To get the maximum reflected energy off the target the CW illumination beam should be as small in diameter and as powerful as possible for several reasons beyond the obvious ones concerning ECM. One reason for it to be small is if two targets are flying in close formation and the beam is too large it will fall upon both targets together and if you task two different missiles, each to hit each target they will both home in on the largest returned RF signal. It has happened where both missile have hit the same target leaving the other target untouched. And when the first missile hits its target it thus makes it an even bigger reflector of RF energy which increases the odds that the second missile will also strike the debris. This has occurred more than once. The second reason is at the longer ranges the beam spreads out reducing the energy falling upon the target and thus reduces the amount of reflected energy the missile needs to homes in on thus affecting its ability to locate and track.

The process of the handoff from the acquisition radar to the final tracking and control radar is always a very tricky and difficult thing to do. In fact the greatest advantage of the Phase-array radar is not how many targets it can track at the same time but the high accuracy it gives to the fire control radar in the handoff. In older systems it might take considerable time for the tracking radar to first search out and then finally acquire the target and only after that could it then track the target accurately enough to develop a firing solution to fire a missile. Fire control radars only look at a tiny area of space at a time and if the target moves quickly enough and the refresh rate of the search radar is too slow or if it is too inaccurate, it might never acquire the target at all. The phase-array provides not only a much better handoff, giving the tracking radar an almost instantaneous lock on, but it provides accurate enough information to have a firing solution for the missiles long before it was ever possible before. In the old days if you had three fire control radars you could only have three missiles streams in flight at a time. Under this system you can have many more missiles launched and on their way to many different targets at different bearings all the same time.

When the target is inbound and close to the ship the handoff is good enough that the tracking radar does not even need to acquire the target to put the illumination beam on it but at long ranges it does need to because the SPY-1D is not that accurate at the long ranges for this task. Notice that in the DDG-1000 class where you have X-band and S-band phase- arrays radars working together there is no decanted fire control radar tracking radar as such.

The worst case and the hardest to defend is that of a single ship out and alone and without air support coming from a combined high/low radial attack. The single high component of the strike group, is used to locate the ship and then it vectors the others elements running down upon the deck which are perhaps flying supersonically. The low components of the strike package to their attack positions. The low components are radar and radio silent and cannot be detected while they are below the ship's radar horizon where the high component it not. The low components fly their attack run in a bandit train formation or in several formations. Multiple fighter bombers flying in a head to tail configuration so that when the aircraft finally do pop up over the ship's radar horizon the ship cannot evaluate the numbers in the strike package coming at them along the different threat axes. Is it one aircraft or ten? They can come from one bearing or they might come from several? Coming along from each barring, are they one or two or from another it might be six or eight. The following aircraft will be in the leads aircraft’s radar shadow and the others probably undetectable.

When the ship fires at the strike group only then do they split apart flying parallel but separate paths until they launch their weapons and then follow their weapons in to get within the minimum range of the ships missiles. Their guns alone could take out the ships masts and their sensors leaving them helpless to further attacks.

If you were say the Chinese would you be will to lose five or six jets to kill a Burke? It would seem to be a good trade.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I struggle to see how a pair of cruisers armed with a useless Sea Slug would be any better than a County Class similarly limited. You could argue the 6" would be better at softening up, but personally I can't see why the army didn't just take 20 Cheftain's then they wouldn't have had to worry so much about land based opposition.

It's a strange thing but the British Army only seem to see MBT as relevant if the enemy have them.

I agree about the 3" twins but you could have got a lot more of those at sea if the Type 12/Leanders (as the RCN did) had been fitted with them instead of the 4.5" twin.
The cruisers were almost built instead of the Counties so it is only logical that had things gone that way they would have joined the taskforce.

Seaslug was not useless rather it, along with Seadart, kept attacking aircraft at low altitude to avoide certain destruction. The high radar horizon of the cruisers, their command and control facilities as well as their deterent value against surface attack would have been invaluable. Had they been upgraded with Tartar it can logically be assumed that this system may in turn have been replaced with Standard.

A bit of a stretch but as the cruisers were so large it is conceivable that they could have been modified in a variety of ways prior to 1982. Seawolf, Exocet and Ikara come to mind, or perhaps if the Tartar / Standard used Mk13 launchers Harpoon instead of Exorcet. With Standard would Seaslug have been retained or perhaps removed with a helideck and hanger being fitted instead. The possibilities are endless.
 

Hambo

New Member
The cruisers were almost built instead of the Counties so it is only logical that had things gone that way they would have joined the taskforce.

Seaslug was not useless rather it, along with Seadart, kept attacking aircraft at low altitude to avoide certain destruction. The high radar horizon of the cruisers, their command and control facilities as well as their deterent value against surface attack would have been invaluable. Had they been upgraded with Tartar it can logically be assumed that this system may in turn have been replaced with Standard.

A bit of a stretch but as the cruisers were so large it is conceivable that they could have been modified in a variety of ways prior to 1982. Seawolf, Exocet and Ikara come to mind, or perhaps if the Tartar / Standard used Mk13 launchers Harpoon instead of Exorcet. With Standard would Seaslug have been retained or perhaps removed with a helideck and hanger being fitted instead. The possibilities are endless.
It would need to be the case that Tartar would have superior performance and a switch to US electronics. It would need a willingness to ditch a section of UK industry as if you are proposing a switch to the standard range then no Sea Dart i assume? and if so could UK industry then remain in the SAM game so no sea wolf?
 
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