Afghanistan- why are we still at it ?

[STURM]

Firstly I am not mixing up anything with anything. Read the posts carefully.

Apart from the local Pushtuns, many of whom saw the Taliban as better alternative to the warlords, the main supporters of the Taliban was the Pakistani government. During the 'civil war' between the Taliban and the N. Alliance, the Saudis also provided a lot of cash aid to the Talibs. For their own ends, the Pakistani's have a long history of meddling in the affairs of Afghanistan. The first countries to officially recognise the Taliban were Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the UAE. The U.S. also initially saw the Taliban as a better alternative to the lawlessness and chaos caused by the various warlords. As part of a company's campaign to lay an oil pipe across Afghnistan in the mid-90's, a delegation from the Taliban visited the U.S. and met with a couple of congressman and other U.S. officials.

P.S. I'm also vary curious as to the the relevance of Saddam's execution with the current discussion.

 

[T.C.P]

Apart from the local Pushtuns, many of whom saw the Taliban as better alternative to the warlords, the main supporters of the Taliban was the Pakistani government. During the 'civil war' between the Taliban and the N. Alliance, the Saudis also provided a lot of cash aid to the Talibs. For their own ends, the Pakistani's have a long history of meddling in the affairs of Afghanistan. The first countries to officially recognise the Taliban were Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the UAE. The U.S. also initially saw the Taliban as a better alternative to the lawlessness and chaos caused by the various warlords. As part of a company's campaign to lay an oil pipe across Afghnistan in the mid-90's, a delegation from the Taliban visited the U.S. and met with a couple of congressman and other U.S. officials.

P.S. I'm also vary curious as to the the relevance of Saddam's execution with the current discussion.

Yep. The Taliban's relation with the US soured when they accepted the Al Qaeda and refused to hand them over.

 

[STURM]

Yep. The Taliban's relation with the US soured when they accepted the Al Qaeda and refused to hand them over.

For quite a few years up to 9/11, one of the main reasons the N. Alliance managed to survive was due to arms shipments from Russia and India, plus smuggling in gems and precious stones.

 

[John Sansom]

Sorry, pal. You're mixing nationals with religious movement. Pushtu's are not religion but nationals. The Taleban/Taliban is fundamentalists of the Islam, not nationals.

Taleban/Taliban was released from Pakistan refugee camps to suppress Northern Aliance, which btw, was in control of majority of Afghanistan ... (link removed)
Released by whom?
Don't u know this?

But by playing the Taleban/Taliban "card" The Kagal got screwed bc of fundamentalists took the country and drop them off in the Kabal's most outspoken plans - to set the country as New "Opium Triangle" after loss in Indo-China peninsula.
So Mullah Omar declared "fatwa", Southern people got scared and somewhat loyal and by gaining popularity based on religious roots the Taleban took the country.
Leader of the Northern Alliance, Shah Massoud gained popularity in Northern part of Afghanistan, with Uzbeks, Tajiks and such. Plus again, he refused to promote opium
Maybe in Badahshan, for some religious cults - but not as agricultural sector for the country.
So such leader unfortunately was putted in "cancellation".
Then the Kagal decided to stop tribal wars, which gained no stability and created 9/11 and released legend about Al-Quaeida and training camps in Afghan.
So this is how invasion began.

Te Taleban cleansing on religious platform, not on nationality. Another case when some mixed cultures being hurt but it always happened.
If u'd like to stay with one group - be loyal and do not MIX with anyone else. Primitive? Hell yes, but perfectly fit in History of mankind.
My humble opinion - NATO and whatever freaking name of theat occupational forces name is must go in 2002.

Every country has to have their own war and live through their own tragedy. Thats how nation do self-cleaning and reorganizing.

Do u know anything about Iraqi people life under Saddam?Check that region back to 1930's. Btw, John Perkins books may help to clarify. Why Saddam was executed? For that fabricated "gazification" of Kurds? U'r kidding me, pal.

Oddly enough, the Kuds I have met don't share your opinion that the "gazification" (sic) of their families was fabricated. These are folk who are not hiding in Canada, but who try to travel between Canada and Iraq pn a relatively regular basis.for family purposes.

And Saddam was executed through due process under law, and, yes, because of Halabja, the Al-Anfal business, and, of course, the extraordinarily high residual levels of Serin, mustard gas, and certain nerve agents uncovered in the soil where these "fabrications" occurrred. This among a whole bunch of other egregious acts.

Now, very carefully, could we have a direct relationship mapped out between the Saddam Husssein business and the Afghanistan subject under discussion? Ot might be helpful.

 

[CBS]

Isolationist


HI:
The biggest trouble America has is it's own problems. We seem to think that WE must save the world as the 'ONLY' Super Power while we turn our backs on our own people. Pulling all the troops out will only encourage the oppostion to run a muck & they will. Europe, since WWII, seems to be totally dependent upon the US...actually, they like US to pay in blood & money for everything. Germany & Japan need to take on their own defenses while America finishes up in Afganistan / Pakistan, kick some serious B here, and then consider our won southern border as a training ground. I personally wish the CIA would stop all their non-sense world-wide for they are the reason we are in so many wars in the pasr 50 years. We will be fighting our next war soon and it will be the BIG ONE !

SF............> Chuck

 

[John Sansom]

HI:
The biggest trouble America has is it's own problems. We seem to think that WE must save the world as the 'ONLY' Super Power while we turn our backs on our own people. Pulling all the troops out will only encourage the oppostion to run a muck & they will. Europe, since WWII, seems to be totally dependent upon the US...actually, they like US to pay in blood & money for everything. Germany & Japan need to take on their own defenses while America finishes up in Afganistan / Pakistan, kick some serious B here, and then consider our won southern border as a training ground. I personally wish the CIA would stop all their non-sense world-wide for they are the reason we are in so many wars in the pasr 50 years. We will be fighting our next war soon and it will be the BIG ONE !

SF............> Chuck

Hello there, Chuck. Well, you got part of it right. If NATO backs out of Afghanistan before Karzai or his successor manages to get at least a largish chunk of that benighted land on the road to some sort of decently administered development in which children can be educated and in which women have the freedom and protection needed to inlcude them--all of them if they so wish--in a future that means something, then we can see NATO collapse.

I have to say, though, you sound a lot like some of the more liberal and decidedly Liberal folk in the UK when that country was expected to take on and pay for just about everything whenever the cannons roared and effective musketry was a very much required skill. And this is today's world whether we like it or not.

It's not a case of Americans thinking that they alone can save the world; it's really Americans being caught on the crest of the wave while trying to prevent the sharks in the trough from devouring them and their allies.

As for the CIA.... Well, they always get the bum rap simply because their "business" denies them the opportunity (or the right) to defend themselves. You can, of course, choose your own opinion in this respect. As for me, I am reasonably content that the CIA, CSIS, MI5, MI6, MI7 and the rest of them are doing the best that they can within the context of decency and democracy (although I do have a couple of bones of contention that I gnaw on now and then).:daz

 

[CBS]

Hello there, Chuck. Well, you got part of it right. If NATO backs out of Afghanistan before Karzai or his successor manages to get at least a largish chunk of that benighted land on the road to some sort of decently administered development in which children can be educated and in which women have the freedom and protection needed to inlcude them--all of them if they so wish--in a future that means something, then we can see NATO collapse.

I have to say, though, you sound a lot like some of the more liberal and decidedly Liberal folk in the UK when that country was expected to take on and pay for just about everything whenever the cannons roared and effective musketry was a very much required skill. And this is today's world whether we like it or not.

It's not a case of Americans thinking that they alone can save the world; it's really Americans being caught on the crest of the wave while trying to prevent the sharks in the trough from devouring them and their allies.

As for the CIA.... Well, they always get the bum rap simply because their "business" denies them the opportunity (or the right) to defend themselves. You can, of course, choose your own opinion in this respect. As for me, I am reasonably content that the CIA, CSIS, MI5, MI6, MI7 and the rest of them are doing the best that they can within the context of decency and democracy (although I do have a couple of bones of contention that I gnaw on now and then).:daz

HI John:

First of all, thanks for the response....it's always good to hear other thoughts and ideas. I'll try point to point responses and see how that works.
Liberal thinking from the UK....not, at all. Most consider me a ultra-conservative
from a red-neck state. I'm just tired of all the wars regardless of whom is to blame or the point needing to be made. I think the UN was a great idea but the reality is, it is worthless as shown in many cases; however, the world seems to be pushing for a NWO and thusly they remain popular with the smaller countries...so let them fight some of these wars without us.

Secondly, American foreign policy in the last fifty years has been ' in your face ' type of diplomacy...no matter whom you are, that's offensive. Here, Hillary fits into the mold perfectly! We have concerns around he world......so does everyone; we act on ours constantly causing trouble with the subversive CIA & contractors or thru diplomatic channels and it's time to stop that baloney.

Finally, the CIA runs drugs, counter productive to DEA, FBI, ATF and many general Homeland Security issues. The CIA runs guns...same ideas apply here.
The CIA has litlle to NO oversight...why ? Because they fund their own missions, for God and country, of course, regardless of Congress or the President...' need to know basis'....sure enough. When you have a weapon pointed at you and are 'advised' to leave the area quickly, you do develop some opinions about those people who swear to be doing the right thing for America. I think the CIA, along with the IRS, are two of the most dangerous groups in America, maybe even the world, for any purpose and they both display their attitudes with no one able to stop or hinder their processes. As a citizen, I'm very concerned about them and worry that they run the 'shadow' government everyone has heared of before..the
one that even some of our Presidents have knowledge of today.

So John, there you have it.........enjoyed the exchange.

Chuck

 

[Waylander]

Always the same song about Europeans (Germans) should defend themselves.
As if the handfull of combat units and fighter squadrons in Germany (of which lots deploy anyway) are stationed here to defend Germany...
These bases and troops are here because it helps the US to reach and touch alot of hotspots much faster and easier than from CONUS.

The same applies to Japan. The bases there help the US alot in having a huge presence in the western pacific.

 

[Feanor]

Always the same song about Europeans (Germans) should defend themselves.
As if the handfull of combat units and fighter squadrons in Germany (of which lots deploy anyway) are stationed here to defend Germany...
These bases and troops are here because it helps the US to reach and touch alot of hotspots much faster and easier than from CONUS.

The same applies to Japan. The bases there help the US alot in having a huge presence in the western pacific.

Sure. But given current budgetary issues, I don't see global force projection as an essential doctrinal requirement.

 

[John Sansom]

Oops! Sory, Chuck. I had forgotten that the "liberal" tag has very different meanings in the USA than in, say, the various British Commonwealth nations where it is used with a cap "L" to designate a legitimate political party....and with a lower case "l" to designate more a "laisser faire" attitude than anything more sinister.

So, as I said or implied, "laisser faire" thinking in the UK in the thirties kind of held that "Mr. Hitler" was a reasonable chap doing the best he could in difficult circumstances. This is what led to the "peace in our time" speech on the apron of a London-area airport. In fact, it also led to Harry Truman's expressed positive regard for one Joseph Stalin over Winston Churchill at Potsdam.

My point being that it's perfectly fine, in my opinion, to express one's disdain for war and even for the people who use questionable tactics to keep us out of one (or more), but we should always keep an eye on the fellows making threatening gestures
from just beyond rhe campfire's light.

Have a good one, mate.

 

[CBS]

John:
There is no opps or sorry needed ! You have every right to voice your opinion on any matters that you see fit. "L" or 'l'...matters not to me but the meanings are different. Never understood how Stalin fooled Harry though....the man was a butcher........killed far more people than Hilter and many of those people were his own, Russians.

As to keeping an eye on others....well we do that too well. We spie on every country as do you....and that makes one wonder ? Is everyone out ot get us or you ? Me thinks not ! Yes, I'm tired of wars, all wars for anyone....just seems as though we should have advanced past the 'homo-erectus' stage at this point in mankinds' history.

Best to ya,
Chuck

 

[surpreme]

HI John:



Finally, the CIA runs drugs, counter productive to DEA, FBI, ATF and many general Homeland Security issues. The CIA runs guns...same ideas apply here.
The CIA has litlle to NO oversight...why ? Because they fund their own missions, for God and country, of course, regardless of Congress or the President...' need to know basis'....sure enough. When you have a weapon pointed at you and are 'advised' to leave the area quickly, you do develop some opinions about those people who swear to be doing the right thing for America. I think the CIA, along with the IRS, are two of the most dangerous groups in America, maybe even the world, for any purpose and they both display their attitudes with no one able to stop or hinder their processes. As a citizen, I'm very concerned about them and worry that they run the 'shadow' government everyone has heared of before..the
one that even some of our Presidents have knowledge of today.

So John, there you have it.........enjoyed the exchange.

Chuck

Love the the remark but the CIA is a big organization in fact it the biggest intelligence service in the world. I would said Russia but after what happen in the 90's they reorganizing their intelligence service. CIA has it hand in more things than you think. My opinion it the most effective intelligence service beside Israelis intelligence. If you look at CIA operation in Afghanistan it has been effective. The Israelis got it training from the CIA secretly. My conclusion is that to be effective it has to be seperate. I truly believe it time to gradually withdraw from Afghanistan to ease our money problem and take care of some of our own problem in America.

 

[CBS]

Love the the remark but the CIA is a big organization in fact it the biggest intelligence service in the world. I would said Russia but after what happen in the 90's they reorganizing their intelligence service. CIA has it hand in more things than you think. My opinion it the most effective intelligence service beside Israelis intelligence. If you look at CIA operation in Afghanistan it has been effective. The Israelis got it training from the CIA secretly. My conclusion is that to be effective it has to be seperate. I truly believe it time to gradually withdraw from Afghanistan to ease our money problem and take care of some of our own problem in America.

JOHN: Well, the CIA is a dangerous group of people, whom I believe do not always represent the USA but rather their own purpose & goals. That alone, coupled with self-funding allows them to 'run-a-muck' which is very dangerous for America. You are correct about Afghanistan....time to leave....same with Iraq and then start the healing process here at home. OH...one more thing...wonder how
Americans would like it if Germany or France came over here and bombed the
rebelous people to 'stop' the innocent, from being killed in war ! How stupid can an answer really be these days ? It's a civil war...don't place your nose there !

 

[Feanor]

Love the the remark but the CIA is a big organization in fact it the biggest intelligence service in the world. I would said Russia but after what happen in the 90's they reorganizing their intelligence service. CIA has it hand in more things than you think. My opinion it the most effective intelligence service beside Israelis intelligence. If you look at CIA operation in Afghanistan it has been effective. The Israelis got it training from the CIA secretly. My conclusion is that to be effective it has to be seperate. I truly believe it time to gradually withdraw from Afghanistan to ease our money problem and take care of some of our own problem in America.

I don't think anyone here is qualified to talk about this on any serious level.

 

[Shock]

I don't think anyone here is qualified to talk about this on any serious level.

agreed. i kinda expect people in the intelligence to follow the first rule of Fight Club when it comes to people outside it.

but on topic: we are still at it because we are dealing with rough terrain, a population that has historically always resistant to invaders, and a government that will fall if we don't prop it up.

 

[surpreme]

Yes you're right fendor, Im not going to get into much on that. Some thing are just common sense. Im getting information from military friends with the 101st Airborne and they telling me they hitting the taliban leadership hard. If you look at this so call Spring Offensive where do see a real organize force hitting NATO/U.S. forces. The taliban is feeling the heat from 101st Airborne Division plus CIA operative with Special forces units are hitting the taliban hard. I knew when the whole 101st was deployed in Southern Afghanistan there was going be a difference in that area. It not over yet but taliban will try to hit back in there birthplace. I still feel it time to get out while thing have change on the ground. President Obama decision to up the troop level was wise choice and putting the whole 101st was even better. The U.S. might just get it right before withdrawal of troops start to happen.

 

[Belesari]

We didnt beat the insurgents not really. They all just flee to pakistain where they have safe havens along the boarder.

Same with AQ. Even if we did pull out now the world would go "look we can beat the Americans!" they get more recruits more money and we have another massacure of american or coalition soldiers or civilians somewhere in the world and are back at square one.

We Could win but its going to be hard with everyone else cutting off and leaving.

And those soldiers wouldnt be sent to the boarder. That would be political suicide to the present administration.

"US sends troops to mexican boarder! Opponents say Americans want genocide!!"

And such would soon popup.

To start this off, I don't intend for this to be offensive. I hold th highest respect for all service men and women in arms. But- why are we in Afghanistan ? Why aren't we defending our own borders from illegal aliens and border wars ? We defeated the insurgents years ago. We are only in Afghanistan to defend Afghanistan. If we got out of there, we could save millions of dollars. We can spread the military out on our own borders, killing two birds with one stone. ( what I mean is, we save money and cut down on illegal aliens. Again, I highly respect all in arms. I'm just trying to see what people think.
Cody

 

[riksavage]

Yes you're right fendor, Im not going to get into much on that. Some thing are just common sense. Im getting information from military friends with the 101st Airborne and they telling me they hitting the taliban leadership hard. If you look at this so call Spring Offensive where do see a real organize force hitting NATO/U.S. forces. The taliban is feeling the heat from 101st Airborne Division plus CIA operative with Special forces units are hitting the taliban hard. I knew when the whole 101st was deployed in Southern Afghanistan I there was going be a difference in that area. It not over yet but taliban will try to hit back in there birthplace. I still feel it time to get out while thing have change on the ground. President Obama decision to up the troop level was wise choice and putting the whole 101st was even better. The U.S. might just get it right before withdrawal of troops start to happen.

The Taliban are taking lessons from Mao, they are learning to flow around military concentrations and focus on soft targets (recent suicide bombing of a hospital for example). The days of carrying out frontal attacks in large numbers against well resourced and dug-in western troops are largely over. Their popular saying - 'you have the watch, we have the time' still stands true today. Recent successes against group leaders may blunt operations, but they won't stop recruitment of people prepared to die for the cause.

My worry is the perception of a noticeable security improvement in areas like Helmand will convince the allies to withdraw, thus removing the critical boots on the ground factor, which currently is the only reason why the bazaars are back up and running and schools are being built. Endemic corruption, poor ANA/ANP leadership and a natural hatred between the northern Alliance and the Pashtun's (or Pathan's) will result in another civil war leaving the Taliban plenty of time to regroup and fill the security void. Now Osama is dead the west will just simply sit back and claim mission accomplished until Osama Mrk II appears.

Unfortunately the Taliban are going nowhere, they will never be totally defeated because they are so deeply rooted in both Afghanistan and Pakistan supported by rogue elements of the ISI who are playing their own version of the Great Game.

If it was my decision I would simply accept the Pashtun's will always cause a problem and focus on training and arming the northern alliance in their strongholds. This will hopefully provide a springboard for future operations should Afghanistan become the primary training ground and safe haven for future international terrorism.

 

[surpreme]

The Taliban are taking lessons from Mao, they are learning to flow around military concentrations and focus on soft targets (recent suicide bombing of a hospital for example). The days of carrying out frontal attacks in large numbers against well resourced and dug-in western troops are largely over. Their popular saying - 'you have the watch, we have the time' still stands true today. Recent successes against group leaders may blunt operations, but they won't stop recruitment of people prepared to die for the cause.

My worry is the perception of a noticeable security improvement in areas like Helmand will convince the allies to withdraw, thus removing the critical boots on the ground factor, which currently is the only reason why the bazaars are back up and running and schools are being built. Endemic corruption, poor ANA/ANP leadership and a natural hatred between the northern Alliance and the Pashtun's (or Pathan's) will result in another civil war leaving the Taliban plenty of time to regroup and fill the security void. Now Osama is dead the west will just simply sit back and claim mission accomplished until Osama Mrk II appears.

Unfortunately the Taliban are going nowhere, they will never be totally defeated because they are so deeply rooted in both Afghanistan and Pakistan supported by rogue elements of the ISI who are playing their own version of the Great Game.

If it was my decision I would simply accept the Pashtun's will always cause a problem and focus on training and arming the northern alliance in their strongholds. This will hopefully provide a springboard for future operations should Afghanistan become the primary training ground and safe haven for future international terrorism.

The Taliban lost alot of soldiers and they were experience which is hard to replace. The Taliban are not totally defeat and some have retreated to fight another day. The overall picture what can the Taliban do now nothing but suicide bombing nothing else. I know they still getting recruits who are willin to die and also losing recruits who see it a losing cause against highly trained forces. This battle has been going on for 10 years now and look at how many soldiers the Taliban had lost .

 

[Belesari]

THAT is why getting a effective Afghan military and police force up is so important. The Taliban is just waiting for us to leave and the people know it. If the Gov. Cant protect its people.....they wont fight for it.

The Taliban lost alot of soldiers and they were experience which is hard to replace. The Taliban are not totally defeat and some have retreated to fight another day. The overall picture what can the Taliban do now nothing but suicide bombing nothing else. I know they still getting recruits who are willin to die and also losing recruits who see it a losing cause against highly trained forces. This battle has been going on for 10 years look at lost of the Taliban.