Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Abraham Gubler]

It will be interesting to see how they are deployed. Will they be issued at brick, section, or platoon level?

If at brick level I assume they will replace the riflemans F88, leaving the brick leader with his F88, the grenadier and the LSW gunner. Who will be the scout?

The HNA/modernised infantry battalion has a 7.62mm sharpshooter rifle in each of the three manouvre support teams in each platoon. However things are designed to be flexible so they could replace the marksman's F88S in each of the six infantry teams per platoon.

There is no rifleman in the infantry team just the commander, LSW gunner, grenadier and the marksman. The old forward scouts, rifle group and gun group construct of the infantry section is history.

 

[Volkodav]

There is no rifleman in the infantry team just the commander, LSW gunner, grenadier and the marksman. The old forward scouts, rifle group and gun group construct of the infantry section is history.

At the risk of showing my age the Scout, Gun and Rifle groups were the way things were done when I joined.

Things are definitely improving as back then anyone who had any interest in marksmanship was labelled as a w@nker and the ability to hit a target at more than 300m was seen as unnecessary as that was seen as being the job of the M-60 / Bren / MAG 58. The other 8 guys were only there to cover the gunner while he reloaded.

The changes afoot at the moment have really spiked my interest in getting back in uniform, even if it is only as a private in a reserve rifle company.

 

[Raven22]

That would be a great move with the added advantage that when LAND 400 starts delivering replacement vehicles there will be a capable vehicle with a decent life left to cascade down to the ARES.

While it would be nice, it probably wouldn't be all that smart. All we need is to make the current ASLAV fleet servicable out to the early 2020s, by when they will be completely replaced. You don't need to buy a whole new fleet of vehicles for this. You just need to buy spares and resource the maintenance correctly. The main problem is the fact that there are ~150 sitting in various levels of deep maintenance/repair/upgrade/trials etc, with that number never seeming to reduce. There are still vehicles that have yet to receive the Phase 3 upgrade. The majority actually issued to units aren't shooters because of a lack spares. The spares chain is almost non-existent. For instance, when my car needed a pack lift in Iraq, it needed the only serviceable spare engine in Australia to be shipped out. There were no other spares anyway in the system, even for the theatre reserve. It is amazing, but the ASLAV has been is service for 15 years, but a sustainment contract was only signed last year.

All that is really needed to ensure the continued serviceability of the fleet is to buy about another 40 new, and increase the RPS and maintenance funding for the remainder.

Also, the reserves will never be issued ASLAVs. If the regs can't keep them serviceable, there is no way the reserves can.

The HNA/modernised infantry battalion has a 7.62mm sharpshooter rifle in each of the three manouvre support teams in each platoon. However things are designed to be flexible so they could replace the marksman's F88S in each of the six infantry teams per platoon.

These rifles were bought for use in Afghanistan, where the MIB platoon isn't really used. In reality, the rifles will go firstly to sniper number twos, and then whoever the hell else the commanders dictate. The OMLTs in particular are keen to get these, as they need heavy firepower for use on the days when the ANA choose not to fight. Remember that the HK-417 was bought as a 7.62mm assault rifle, not as a designated marksman rifle as such. All I know is that my boss won't let me have one.

The changes afoot at the moment have really spiked my interest in getting back in uniform, even if it is only as a private in a reserve rifle company.

Without wanting to burst any bubbles, the reserve battalions are a very, very long way from adopting the MIB organisation (they might adopt 8 man sections, but that's not nearly the same thing). Until the reserves get issued 84s, Mag-58s in numbers, QCBs, Javelins, ACOGs, SPRs, VIPRs (and soon Maximi, AGLs, HK-417s, HArris radios) etc etc, and can actually train there pers in all this kit, then they will remain stuck with the Vietnam era infantry battalions.

 

[Volkodav]

Also, the reserves will never be issued ASLAVs. If the regs can't keep them serviceable, there is no way the reserves can.

Its a case of money, spares and time, it could be done if the right people were attracted, retained and adequately supported.

The big issue is most of the right people left during the late 90's when the double whammy of the GRES wanting more for nothng and civilian employers being emboldened to discriminate against anyone not available to work 70 hour weeks. Not just talking about my own experience but also of mates with trades, advanced certs and diplomas, the guys you would have thought would be in RAEME but chose to be line troops instead. This is how the LH kept the M-113s running, the average line troop had more top notch tradies and techos than the average spanner troop.

Give the reserves ASLAVs and the right sort of guys will rejoin and make it work. Then again maintaining and operating vehicles that do minimal kms in a capital city during peace time would be a breeze compared to making it all work in a war zone without decent TLS / ILS backing. The issue reserve would have is the tactical employment of the vehicles, if you don't drive them often enough you can't perfect the basics let alone the advanced operational stuff, thats where you rely on a larger reg cadre and as many ex regs as you can scrounge into the ranks.

Fantasy completed.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The issue reserve would have is the tactical employment of the vehicles, if you don't drive them often enough you can't perfect the basics let alone the advanced operational stuff, thats where you rely on a larger reg cadre and as many ex regs as you can scrounge into the ranks.

Except for the ASLAV CPT. Any reserve ASLAV squadron could spend their tuesday nights hooked into a big computer game...

But anyway the Army can't afford to buy berets so its unlikely the ARES will get armoured fighting vehicles. The money needs to go to important things like keeping public servants employed.

 

[Volkodav]

Without wanting to burst any bubbles, the reserve battalions are a very, very long way from adopting the MIB organisation (they might adopt 8 man sections, but that's not nearly the same thing). Until the reserves get issued 84s, Mag-58s in numbers, QCBs, Javelins, ACOGs, SPRs, VIPRs (and soon Maximi, AGLs, HK-417s, HArris radios) etc etc, and can actually train there pers in all this kit, then they will remain stuck with the Vietnam era infantry battalions.

We used to joke in the mess that we were in the best 1970s army in the world. Even qualified on the F-1 SMG and AR at my IET at the Uni Regt.

Ironically our kit in the early 90s was probably closer to that of the regs than it is now. We had Carl Gustavs, M-72s and got the F-88 and F-89 not long after the regs. Got to do a good amount of live fire and there were more blanks than we knew what to do with.

Things changed in the mid to late 90s, no more blanks and we were lucky if we got live rounds to do our annual range qualification. Training days were cut and lots of our gear stated cascading to the regs.

I don’t expect to see the latest gear on hand but I am still considering giving it a go while I am still young enough.

 

[Volkodav]

Except for the ASLAV CPT. Any reserve ASLAV squadron could spend their tuesday nights hooked into a big computer game...

But anyway the Army can't afford to buy berets so its unlikely the ARES will get armoured fighting vehicles. The money needs to go to important things like keeping public servants employed.

My dear old dad was a defence public servant for decades but he despairs at the current situation.

Personally I find it ludicrous that the CoA seems to need to have a civilian equivalent to mirror every position industry has in certain areas. They don’t actually produce or create anything; they just seem to exist to review the work done by their industry equivalent. Within six months of my current role being created DMO were advertising for an equivalent, I have never met the person recruited but I believe they have reviewed some of my reports but not commented.

 

[Raven22]

Except for the ASLAV CPT. Any reserve ASLAV squadron could spend their tuesday nights hooked into a big computer game...

Considering the entire Army at the moment has exactly 8 CPTs, and its taken tens of millions of dollars and a decade to get 8 more (to be delivered in four years), I doubt any Reserve squadron will be playing on a CPT any time soon. Even the regular units can't put a troop in a CPT at once, let along a squadron.

Ironically our kit in the early 90s was probably closer to that of the regs than it is now. We had Carl Gustavs, M-72s and got the F-88 and F-89 not long after the regs. Got to do a good amount of live fire and there were more blanks than we knew what to do with

It's not just a matter of having the equipment, although the reserves will never have all the gucci gear, it is a matter of the individual training burden. The regular units can't find the time and resources to train all the soldiers with the skills to fill the MIB. It's not just courses for the weapons and other equipment either. Each MIB platoon should have a assault pioneer qualified brick, one qualified CFA in each brick, a trained marksman in each brick, trained designated marksman in each MSS brick, qualified urban ops instructors in the platoon etc etc.These are the sort of qualifications that reserve units just can't maintain, as they neither have the time for the course themselves nor for the continuation training. The only regular infantry battalions that have these quals are the ones about to deploy to Afghanistan, as MST is the only time that the resources are provided to do this.

 

[hairyman]

Would'nt a light tank be more suitable for our Army than an AFV? The chief differnce between the two being that the AFV is wheeled whereas a light tank would be tracked.:daz

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Would'nt a light tank be more suitable for our Army than an AFV? The chief differnce between the two being that the AFV is wheeled whereas a light tank would be tracked.:daz

Well the Army had a similar intuitive idea back in the 1990s and was interested in 105mm gun versions of the LAV and the XM8 AGS to replace the Leopard tanks. But then they did some experimentation as part of a program called A21 and found disturbing results. The all LAV force was highly lethal in open terrain like deserts and fields, even more lethal than a force equipped with conventional tanks. But in close terrain like cities and forested areas the all LAV force suffered extreme casualties. Even in battles with insurgent forces the all LAV force had a negative exchange rate. But a force with conventional tanks was far more survivable and lethal in close terrain. This experimentation has subsequently been supported by operational experience in Iraq and Afghanistan where tanks play a crucial role in infantry support. The same experience the Australian Army had in the jungles of New Guinea, Borneo and VietNam.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Considering the entire Army at the moment has exactly 8 CPTs, and its taken tens of millions of dollars and a decade to get 8 more (to be delivered in four years), I doubt any Reserve squadron will be playing on a CPT any time soon. Even the regular units can't put a troop in a CPT at once, let along a squadron.

Yeah tis an indication of how bad procurement is…

But realistically the CPT is for turret crew procedure training (CPT) in how to operate the weapon systems not collective tactical training. It replaces that super cool to 10 year olds plinking at rubber toys with .22 F88s mounted on the gun mantle. But with Steel Beasts the Army should be able to easily get a squadron (or higher) in the field. VBS even made a rough crew position simulator for the M113AS4 to get the crew in the proper intra communication relationship. Such a thing for the ASLAV may look like a Gucci gaming kit but its good training.

ARES units have successfully trained to competent levels on Centurion tanks in the past and with the benefit of modern simulators should be able to on ASLAV/IFVs. Part of the key is to leverage civilian skill sets for vehicle maintenance and understand that an effective reserve model requires 3-6 months of full time training before the unit is at the level of a regular unit. Which means compromises in the part time training.

Considering the entire Army at the moment has exactly 8 It's not just a matter of having the equipment, although the reserves will never have all the gucci gear, it is a matter of the individual training burden. The regular units can't find the time and resources to train all the soldiers with the skills to fill the MIB. It's not just courses for the weapons and other equipment either. Each MIB platoon should have a assault pioneer qualified brick, one qualified CFA in each brick, a trained marksman in each brick, trained designated marksman in each MSS brick, qualified urban ops instructors in the platoon etc etc.These are the sort of qualifications that reserve units just can't maintain, as they neither have the time for the course themselves nor for the continuation training. The only regular infantry battalions that have these quals are the ones about to deploy to Afghanistan, as MST is the only time that the resources are provided to do this.

Such a spread of qualifications may seem impressive to the infantry but its bread and butter stuff to operate an artillery battery. Yet the ARES has managed for decades to successfully operate artillery batteries to competitive levels with ARA units.

 

[uuname]

The case against two Army Reserve soldiers charged with manslaughter in Afghanistan will not go to court martial.

Soldiers' manslaughter court martial called off - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

The prosecution's inability to find similar cases where manslaughter charges were brought in an active combat situation illustrated the difficulties in proving a duty of care, Judge Advocate Westwood said.

The case has been described as the first of its kind in Australian history.

Judge Advocate Westwood indicated the court martial would be dissolved pending any further action by the DMP.

Soldiers' Afghanistan manslaughter charges won't proceed | News.com.au

While I don't have any detailed knowledge of the events outlined, the reports do make it sound very much like charges were brought because of an unfortunate event that happened, rather than direct evidence of a crime.
I'd hate to think this kind of thing was done for political reasons rather than a genuine belief of wrongdoing.

 

[Kirkzzy]

Punishment should have never been considered for these men. Knowing you killed children alone is probably going to be worse than life sentence for these blokes.

 

[Raven22]

Yeah tis an indication of how bad procurement is…

But realistically the CPT is for turret crew procedure training (CPT) in how to operate the weapon systems not collective tactical training. It replaces that super cool to 10 year olds plinking at rubber toys with .22 F88s mounted on the gun mantle. But with Steel Beasts the Army should be able to easily get a squadron (or higher) in the field. VBS even made a rough crew position simulator for the M113AS4 to get the crew in the proper intra communication relationship. Such a thing for the ASLAV may look like a Gucci gaming kit but its good training.

Steel beasts in useless as a tactical trainer. It is only useful at a higher level as a means of simulating the conduct of large battles for dudes on grade courses and ACSC etc.

The CPT can be much more than a crew trainer. If you stick a troop in them, you can practice just about everything you do in the real world. Each CPT includes the full crew wearing normal CVC helmets and links to the other CPTs as well. It is being used as an integral part of tactics wing at the SOA to give potential commanders/officers more command time without actually having to go into the field. Out on the range you might only be able to do two or three battle runs a day, while in the CPT you can do one every half hour.

Like all simulation its far from perfect of course - the resolution is poor, the commander can't see behind him or to the flanks without traversing the turret, weapon effects are poorly simulated etc. But it allows the practicing of all the basic command skills as an introduction to collective training. Things like practicing crew briefs, movement orders, fire control orders, contact reports, troop fire control orders, formations, observation drills, defile drills etc. All these can be practiced to make the time spend on the range to be far more useful.

VBS2 is currently used as the simulator of choice to practice these things. My unit in particular uses it quite heavily due to a lack of vehicles. A lot of people think it is useless, but that is because they don't utilise it properly, the just rock up with no orders, no idea of what they want to do and give no training to the soldiers. To get training benefit out of the sim, you have to treat it just like the real thing. My unit has the soldiers take down SPRs to simulate the use of the radio. The troop leader will give orders, the section commander will give orders, and after H-hour the only talk allowed is over SPR the same is in real life. Used this way it is an excellent training tool. Mind you, the thing you must do above all others to ensure good training is to give the boys an hour at the start to do whatever the hell they want to get it out of their system - run around, shoot each other, turn themselves into seagulls, salute each other etc. If you don't do this the rest of the day will be very painful.

While all this simulation is good, it must be backed by lots of real world collective training in real vehicles on a range however. For this we need serviceable vehicles.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Steel beasts in useless as a tactical trainer. It is only useful at a higher level as a means of simulating the conduct of large battles for dudes on grade courses and ACSC etc.

Erk, just missed this response to now.

I must admit to never actually taking the CDs of Steel Beasts and VBS out of the wrappers Army Sim Office gave them to me in. Back in my day we had Janus which had the HMI of a good Excel spreadsheet and the Call for Fire Trainer which was developed in the 1920s or something, but looked good, just don’t expect too much variation.

The CPT can be much more than a crew trainer. If you stick a troop in them, you can practice just about everything you do in the real world. Each CPT includes the full crew wearing normal CVC helmets and links to the other CPTs as well. It is being used as an integral part of tactics wing at the SOA to give potential commanders/officers more command time without actually having to go into the field. Out on the range you might only be able to do two or three battle runs a day, while in the CPT you can do one every half hour.

I had a go on the prototype CPT a few years ago and it was awesome fun, turns out you can shoot the crap out of anything in an ASLAV if you have no training or understanding of any of the controls and sight symbology but just follow the principals of adjust fire. I just don’t know where all those BMPs in the Australian outback came from…

What I was trying to get at was perhaps something halfway between CPT and a desk top unit which focuses on replicating the command and battle experience without necessarily having the entire turret control system spot on down to the right kind of switches and so on. Without the cost drivers of the CPT and with plenty of flat screens for heads up observation one could get a pretty good and affordable simulation.

 

[Marc 1]

Erk, just missed this response to now.

I must admit to never actually taking the CDs of Steel Beasts and VBS out of the wrappers Army Sim Office gave them to me in. Back in my day we had Janus which had the HMI of a good Excel spreadsheet and the Call for Fire Trainer which was developed in the 1920s or something, but looked good, just don’t expect too much variation.

.

Was that doohicky called FOSS (Fall Of Shot Simulator)? We played with it in 1988ish. Bloody awful (but state of the art in its day!)

 

[StevoJH]

With the French apparrently sending in LHD based Tigers to operate over Libya does the Army or ADF as a whole have people in communication with the French in order to see how they are going in an operational situation?

I assume it would be another way to find any additional bugs (if there arent enough already) in the systems.

 

[Raven22]

With the French apparrently sending in LHD based Tigers to operate over Libya does the Army or ADF as a whole have people in communication with the French in order to see how they are going in an operational situation?

I assume it would be another way to find any additional bugs (if there arent enough already) in the systems.

The French and Aussie Tigers are too different for any really helpful lessons to be learned. Besides, Australia has been monitoring the French Tigers in Afghanistan to see how they do, and that is a more relevant theatre than Libya.

It's also probably worth pointing out that the French Tigers are yet to have an ATGM integrated - it still can't fire hellfire. There's limited worth in an attack helicopter missing its main weapon system, but as always the French are keen to simply use it as an advertising opportunity.

The Aussie Tigers are apparently still on line to become operational at the end of the year.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The Aussie Tigers are apparently still on line to become operational at the end of the year.

I think there are a few accreditation issues yet....

 

[Kirkzzy]

The Aussie Tigers are apparently still on line to become operational at the end of the year.

I heard it was this year originally, but last I heard it was FOC at the end of 2012.