The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[deepsixteen]

I was thinking of an expansion of the yard that recently reworked the castles for Bangladesh any such investment in that area would have a very positive impact I believe.

As to the Clyde I have reason to believe they are busy for the foreseeable future and it seems far from being a deprived area to my untrained eye.

How about nav radar’s, comms fits, soft kill systems, small beer I know compared to the likes of air defence systems but every little helps when your trying to bring in a ship as cost effectively as possible surely.

 

[StevoJH]

Busy with what? T45 is basically finished, and the two QE's are spread out over so many yards that I doubt Goven et al are anywhere near capacity.

 

[deepsixteen]

Type 26 next as I understand it.

 

[StevoJH]

Type 26 next as I understand it.

T26 isnt due to enter service for at least another 7 years time. Has there even been a final design selected yet?

13 (medium sized) ships over a 15-20 year period is hardly a massive workload when spread over half a dozen shipyards.

 

[kev 99]

T26 isnt due to enter service for at least another 7 years time. Has there even been a final design selected yet?

13 (medium sized) ships over a 15-20 year period is hardly a massive workload when spread over half a dozen shipyards.

No design not selected yet.

I'm sure you're right about the work load, to the casual observer it looks like the sort of load that would be required to keep everyone in business but that's about it.

 

[1805]

BAM costs around £90 each and built in low cost shipyards in Spain with lower labour costs than ours, and they lack a lot of the equiment you want.

The equipment fit that you want all costs more money, the machinery costs more fuel and more weapons means more maintenance, all these things cost money. They also require a greater number of crew members and more shore based support.

MHCP is supposed to be a cheap patrol ship with lean manning so that its running costs are low, your ships aren't cheap and they won't be cheap to run either.

Crisis capability crew members? this is just nonsense, try telling anyone from the MOD that the cost of staff is small and they will laugh in your face, where are you getting you're irregulars from? they don't actually exist now unless you want to significantly upgrade the role of the Royal Naval Reserve which costs money too.

.

We are talking about prehaps a no more than 40-50 mission crew if all where called apon which would be unlikely 400. Are you telling me know Naval Reservists are more expensive than perm head count? Actually I have said before that RNR should be expanded significantly to meet emergency peaks and also to help to build a link with the public as Boris is trying to do with Specials in the Met.

 

[deepsixteen]

T26 isnt due to enter service for at least another 7 years time. Has there even been a final design selected yet?

13 (medium sized) ships over a 15-20 year period is hardly a massive workload when spread over half a dozen shipyards.

True which means we will start building in __________ your guess. Mine is after we complete the QE’s which remains the plan as I understand it? Which is why they are due to finalise the design next year?

We may not build anymore warships in Scotland yet, It may even be a foreign land before long.

 

[kev 99]

We are talking about prehaps a no more than 40-50 mission crew if all where called apon which would be unlikely 400. Are you telling me know Naval Reservists are more expensive than perm head count? Actually I have said before that RNR should be expanded significantly to meet emergency peaks and also to help to build a link with the public as Boris is trying to do with Specials in the Met.

I never said they cost more, and I'm not sure how you could even of intepreted what I've said this way, regardless scaling up the role of RNR costs money, the reason they don't do to much meaningful work at the moment is because there is no money for it, sound familiar?

The MOD does not have the money for this.

 

[1805]

I never said they cost more, and I'm not sure how you could even of intepreted what I've said this way, regardless scaling up the role of RNR costs money, the reason they don't do to much meaningful work at the moment is because there is no money for it, sound familiar?

The MOD does not have the money for this.

We are talking about 10-15 years time, the current funding crisis is largely caused by: poor budgeting/planning and just stupied procurement descisions. Although funding is never going to be generous it should be more manageable then.

It does sound familier and the answer is a change to the leadership of the RN, we need to be able to attract, develop and retain a better calibre....who will not keep messing up.

 

[kev 99]

In 10 -15 years time the finanical crisis will of sorted itself out, the financial mess the MOD is in should probably be better, if we start ordering needlessly gold plated kit then it will quickly start deteriorating again. The MHCP requirement as it stands is eminently sensible.

If you think the RN needs new leadership because of poor financial planning then you will probably need to root out the entire MOD because all three services are as bad as each other.

 

[StevoJH]

True which means we will start building in __________ your guess. Mine is after we complete the QE’s which remains the plan as I understand it? Which is why they are due to finalise the design next year?

Well, last I heard the first was to enter service in 2018 corresponding with the first of the Type 22's....but now that they are going/gone...all bets are off.

As for the QE's, the Frigates will be assembled in a different location to the QE's, there is no reason why blocks for the frigate cannot be built alongside those of the QE's. If the same timetable for construction is kept, maybe the T23's will all be out of service before the last built is 35+ years old (as per previous plan).

We may not build anymore warships in Scotland yet, It may even be a foreign land before long.

No comment.

 

[1805]

If you think the RN needs new leadership because of poor financial planning then you will probably need to root out the entire MOD because all three services are as bad as each other.

We agree on something, however it is much broader that just financial planning...

FRES is not just about the money they have wasted we don't have anything to protect our troops?

MR4....words fail me?

FSC....what was all that MV Triton all about they where never going to buy anything as daring?

Type 45.... comparing timescales, spec and cost do they really compare well with their peers where they best value?

 

[1805]

We may not build anymore warships in Scotland yet, It may even be a foreign land before long.

Its an interesting point, if the Nationalist did hold a vote; which they did commit to this parliment, but have now moved to the next. If they were to win would we move all construction south of the boarder and I assume they would have use out of all the bases. Unless we did a deal like the Russia have in the Crimea?

 

[Hambo]

I believe the SNP post independence defence posture discussed by them at the last election was they would maintain their own armed forces so would expect a share out of some assets eg a few frigates/patrol craft to protect scottish interests and work with the UN. The Scottish based army regiments would go north maybe a small number of fast air and helos. So half a dozen infantry regiments for UN missions in the light role with some supplying elements.
No nukes if course so if England, Wales and N.Ireland could still afford Trident alone then these go to Portsmouth or devonport. Either way "our" forces would get smaller as would the GDP, though there are swings and roundabouts, I expect they would have the cheek to demand severance payments but in fairness, I can't see how Scottish based yards could then win orders for ships ordered by a foreign country down south.
Let them have independence in my opinion.

 

[stuuu28]

I believe the SNP post independence defence posture discussed by them at the last election was they would maintain their own armed forces so would expect a share out of some assets eg a few frigates/patrol craft to protect scottish interests and work with the UN. The Scottish based army regiments would go north maybe a small number of fast air and helos. So half a dozen infantry regiments for UN missions in the light role with some supplying elements.
No nukes if course so if England, Wales and N.Ireland could still afford Trident alone then these go to Portsmouth or devonport. Either way "our" forces would get smaller as would the GDP, though there are swings and roundabouts, I expect they would have the cheek to demand severance payments but in fairness, I can't see how Scottish based yards could then win orders for ships ordered by a foreign country down south.
Let them have independence in my opinion.

Would Faselane and Coulport's roles go to the south of England? I could see Scotland being paid handsomely to keep the deterant based there.
I can just imagine the outrage wherever they tried to move Coulport too.

 

[1805]

I believe the SNP post independence defence posture discussed by them at the last election was they would maintain their own armed forces so would expect a share out of some assets eg a few frigates/patrol craft to protect scottish interests and work with the UN. The Scottish based army regiments would go north maybe a small number of fast air and helos. So half a dozen infantry regiments for UN missions in the light role with some supplying elements.
No nukes if course so if England, Wales and N.Ireland could still afford Trident alone then these go to Portsmouth or devonport. Either way "our" forces would get smaller as would the GDP, though there are swings and roundabouts, I expect they would have the cheek to demand severance payments but in fairness, I can't see how Scottish based yards could then win orders for ships ordered by a foreign country down south.
Let them have independence in my opinion.

I agree if they want to go. The election landslide for the SNP could make this a real possibility. Just checked Scottish GDP c140bn, assuming a defence spend of c1% £1.4bn will not maintain much.

 

[Repulse]

The Al Kharaf class that Repulse mentions is 2500 metric tonnes, the version VT offered the MOD for it's C3 role was 3000 tonnes.

The RN requirement is for Mine Counter Measures, Hydrographic Survey and Patrol ships, buying a cheap GP Frigate/corvette and trying to modify it for the requirements is stupid. All you are doing is repeating your same old argument for the RN having a big fleet of small GP frigates/corvettes, despite the simple fact the RN doesn't want them, can't afford to buy them and certainly can't afford to operate them without a pretty hefty increase in the MOD budget which isn't going to happen.

It will come to no surprise that I don't agree with the RN requirements / wants in this area. MCM should be platform independent not tied to a particular vessel class. Survey requirements are currently more difficult, but as we currently do well with just 3 vessels then perhaps just keep as is with a separate class or even combine with a more hefty ice patrol class. Afterall HMS Scott is doing the job right now and the north pole is hotting up (excuse the global warming pun). This leaves the patrol requirement where I feel that a base self defence capability and survivability is required.

The Al Kharaf example was just that, an example of what could be achieved with costs that the MOD could afford if they really wanted to. I agree this is not what the RN wants which is the MHPC, but they hardly have had a great track record for a very long time in warship design. The lack of anti missile protection in the Falklands is just one example. I just hope that no one we know is sat in a MHPC when it all kicks off.

Anyway, I think we have done this topic to death, so let's agree to disagree.

 

[Repulse]

Okay, new question for the floor. Assuming the RN gets the future surface fleet it expects (2 CVFs, 2 LPDs, 3 LSDs, 6 T45, 13 T26 and 12 MHPCs), how would they be positioned for the current commitments (inc Libya and reserve, training, refit etc)?

 

[StevoJH]

12 MHPC's probably isnt enough....

 

[Repulse]

12 MHPC's probably isnt enough....

You are right, but it's a bit of a guess at the moment what the RN is thinking about patrol and survey. It's already been stated by the RN that 8 is required to replace the MCMVs.If it's a one for one replacement for the rivers, echos and HMS Scott (will the MHPC be able to replace the latter?) then at most another 7 which makes 15.