Osama Bin Laden dead
- Thread starter t68
- Start date
The Obama government has decided not to publish any of the pictures of the slain Osama bin Laden. But I suspect the government will release the DNA information, possibly with a press conference...
If you release a picture you will hear its been photoshopped. If you release the DNA tests you will hear its been doctored. At some point the cynics have to trust somebody...
If you release a picture you will hear its been photoshopped. If you release the DNA tests you will hear its been doctored. At some point the cynics have to trust somebody...
True.
I sure would have love to see some evidence, including picture. I am just tired of all the speculation and experts putting out their own stories/take/spin on the whole issue.
They could just show the picture along with the DNA without releasing a digital print? At least we will be able to see what picture do they have of him.
I sure would have love to see some evidence, including picture. I am just tired of all the speculation and experts putting out their own stories/take/spin on the whole issue.
They could just show the picture along with the DNA without releasing a digital print? At least we will be able to see what picture do they have of him.
I think a good indicator of whether ObL truly is dead will be the intensity of insurgent activities over the next few weeks/months in A-stan and Iraq.
On a side note, I don't believe AQ has issued a statement regarding this yet, which I would think they would've done if ObL wasn't killed during the raid.
On a side note, I don't believe AQ has issued a statement regarding this yet, which I would think they would've done if ObL wasn't killed during the raid.
in my mind, he is either dead or captured. its not like the US govt is gonna say hes dead and then the next day he makes another video.
:crazy
lack of security, or may be "too many enemies to fight at the same time" Pakistan is fighting AQ, Taliban and then there is BLA, who everynow and then is involved in RPG, gernade attacks on civilians/military and natural gas pipline explosions. And thats just internal threats, add policing PAK-INDIA & PAK-AFGHAN border, any millitary will be hard stretched.
I believe Pakistani govt/millitary has her hands full as it is, thats why they are not opening up new fronts even though they are being told to do more by US on daily basis
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furymonkey
New Member
That is so true, it's like kicking yourself in the nuts.
I think they are doing the right decision for not releasing the photos, the last thing they want to do is angry more people. You just can't please everyone, even if they decided to release the photo, some people will still reckon it's fake.
i dont know if someone has already posted this report , but i found this link on another forum on Pakistan Foreign ministry response after CIA chief's comment. (Mods can delete my post if its already been reported here)
By the trend of changing govt statements from both US & Pakistan, general public may get to hear complete story sooner rather than later.
I found "no comments" from white house rather intriguing (maybe its just me and trying to read too much between the lines)
Did CIA Ignore Bin Laden Warning?
By Philip Shenon
New York - Wednesday, May 04, 2011: The Pakistani Foreign Ministry says it told U.S. intelligence of suspicions about the compound in Abbottabad where bin Laden was found.
Did Pakistan’s spy agency alert the CIA two years ago that there was something suspicious about the compound where Osama bin Laden was tracked down and killed? Was it intelligence from the Pakistan government that finally led the U.S. to Bin Laden?
Those were the claims of the Pakistani government today, fighting back against accusations that it ignored evidence of the presence of Bin Laden and his family – apparently for years – in a large home only a stone’s throw from the military academy that is Pakistan’s equivalent of West Point.
In a statement released to The Daily Beast by the Pakistani Foreign Ministry, government said that it had been sharing specific intelligence with the CIA about the compound since 2009 and that Abbottabad, the northern Pakistani city when Bin Laden was found, has been “under sharp focus of intelligence agencies since 2003” because of reports of the presence of Al Qaeda fighters.
“The fact is that this particular location was pointed out by our intelligence quite some time ago to the U.S. intelligence,” the Pakistani Foreign Secretary said.
“The intelligence flow indicating some foreigners in the surroundings of Abbottabad continued until mid-April 2011,” the statement said. “It is important to highlight that taking advantage of much superior technological assets, CIA exploited the intelligence leads given by us to identify and reach Osama Bin Laden.”
A CIA spokeswoman said she was aware of the Pakistani statement but had no immediate comment on it. A White House spokeswoman also had no comment. But U.S. government officials have long expressed skepticism about many of their Pakistani counterparts’ claims of their cooperation in aiding America’s efforts against al Qaeda.
The Foreign Ministry statement was released as the Pakistani Foreign Secretary, Salman Bashir, told the BBC that he was distressed by comments by CIA Director Leon Panetta that Pakistan could not be trusted with advance information about the U.S. attack that resulted in Bin Laden’s death.
He said that the Pakistani ISI, the country’s powerful military intelligence agency, had identified the Abbottabad complex as suspicious long ago – and urged the U.S. to use its sophisticated electronic monitoring talents to determine who was inside.
“The fact is that this particular location was pointed out by our intelligence quite some time ago to the U.S. intelligence,” he said, noting that the U.S. had “much more sophisticated equipment to evaluate and to assess” what was going on in the sprawling compound where Bin Laden was eventually killed.
He said it was unfair to suggest that Pakistan would look the other way at Bin Laden’s presence, given his government’s central role in apprehending so many other senior al Qaeda members within Pakistan’s borders, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of the 9/11 attacks in New York and Washington. “Most of these things that have happened in terms of combating global terror, Pakistan has played a pivotal role,” he said.
In its statement, the Pakistani Foreign Ministry suggested that it was not surprising that the Bin Laden compound drew little attention from others in the neighborhood, noting that in the high-security area around Abbottabad and the Pakistani military academy, many houses have “high boundary walls, in line with their culture of privacy and security – houses with such layout and structural details are not a rarity.”
Despite American suspicions that some leaders of the Pakistani military must have known and approved of granting sanctuary to Bin Laden, a former senior U.S. intelligence official tells The Daily Beast that it seems highly unlikely that Bin Laden’s presence was known by more than a few people, if only because no one attempted to claim the State Department’s $10 million reward for Bin Laden’s head – a reward that had been widely publicized in the Pakistan media.
“You’d have thought that over all these years, someone would drop a dime on him,” the official said. “That’s a lot of money for a single phone call or email. It’s surprising that there wasn’t a money-hungry general somewhere who wanted that money. Actually, it’s amazing.”
Did CIA Ignore Bin Laden Warning?Â* - Yahoo! News
By the trend of changing govt statements from both US & Pakistan, general public may get to hear complete story sooner rather than later.
I found "no comments" from white house rather intriguing (maybe its just me and trying to read too much between the lines)
Did CIA Ignore Bin Laden Warning?
By Philip Shenon
New York - Wednesday, May 04, 2011: The Pakistani Foreign Ministry says it told U.S. intelligence of suspicions about the compound in Abbottabad where bin Laden was found.
Did Pakistan’s spy agency alert the CIA two years ago that there was something suspicious about the compound where Osama bin Laden was tracked down and killed? Was it intelligence from the Pakistan government that finally led the U.S. to Bin Laden?
Those were the claims of the Pakistani government today, fighting back against accusations that it ignored evidence of the presence of Bin Laden and his family – apparently for years – in a large home only a stone’s throw from the military academy that is Pakistan’s equivalent of West Point.
In a statement released to The Daily Beast by the Pakistani Foreign Ministry, government said that it had been sharing specific intelligence with the CIA about the compound since 2009 and that Abbottabad, the northern Pakistani city when Bin Laden was found, has been “under sharp focus of intelligence agencies since 2003” because of reports of the presence of Al Qaeda fighters.
“The fact is that this particular location was pointed out by our intelligence quite some time ago to the U.S. intelligence,” the Pakistani Foreign Secretary said.
“The intelligence flow indicating some foreigners in the surroundings of Abbottabad continued until mid-April 2011,” the statement said. “It is important to highlight that taking advantage of much superior technological assets, CIA exploited the intelligence leads given by us to identify and reach Osama Bin Laden.”
A CIA spokeswoman said she was aware of the Pakistani statement but had no immediate comment on it. A White House spokeswoman also had no comment. But U.S. government officials have long expressed skepticism about many of their Pakistani counterparts’ claims of their cooperation in aiding America’s efforts against al Qaeda.
The Foreign Ministry statement was released as the Pakistani Foreign Secretary, Salman Bashir, told the BBC that he was distressed by comments by CIA Director Leon Panetta that Pakistan could not be trusted with advance information about the U.S. attack that resulted in Bin Laden’s death.
He said that the Pakistani ISI, the country’s powerful military intelligence agency, had identified the Abbottabad complex as suspicious long ago – and urged the U.S. to use its sophisticated electronic monitoring talents to determine who was inside.
“The fact is that this particular location was pointed out by our intelligence quite some time ago to the U.S. intelligence,” he said, noting that the U.S. had “much more sophisticated equipment to evaluate and to assess” what was going on in the sprawling compound where Bin Laden was eventually killed.
He said it was unfair to suggest that Pakistan would look the other way at Bin Laden’s presence, given his government’s central role in apprehending so many other senior al Qaeda members within Pakistan’s borders, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of the 9/11 attacks in New York and Washington. “Most of these things that have happened in terms of combating global terror, Pakistan has played a pivotal role,” he said.
In its statement, the Pakistani Foreign Ministry suggested that it was not surprising that the Bin Laden compound drew little attention from others in the neighborhood, noting that in the high-security area around Abbottabad and the Pakistani military academy, many houses have “high boundary walls, in line with their culture of privacy and security – houses with such layout and structural details are not a rarity.”
Despite American suspicions that some leaders of the Pakistani military must have known and approved of granting sanctuary to Bin Laden, a former senior U.S. intelligence official tells The Daily Beast that it seems highly unlikely that Bin Laden’s presence was known by more than a few people, if only because no one attempted to claim the State Department’s $10 million reward for Bin Laden’s head – a reward that had been widely publicized in the Pakistan media.
“You’d have thought that over all these years, someone would drop a dime on him,” the official said. “That’s a lot of money for a single phone call or email. It’s surprising that there wasn’t a money-hungry general somewhere who wanted that money. Actually, it’s amazing.”
Did CIA Ignore Bin Laden Warning?Â* - Yahoo! News
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furymonkey
New Member
An interesting article you have got there rabirizvi.
It seems obvious that there is a serious dent between the US and Pakistan government, as conflicting reports continue to flush out from both countries. It's rather interesting where this be headed.
Here is just my personal opinion, it's no where professional. I think what the Pakistan is doing right now is playing down the issue how incompetence their intelligence are, or how divided their country is. It is rather shameful that one of the most wanted person on the planet is living right under their nose. Even if a certain branch of their government is harbouring him, it just shows how powerless the central government is. It just looks ugly either way.
It's obvious to me that they are putting the blame on the US for their inaction, but in the same time it exposed certain flaws in their statement. They pointed out this compound is suspicious to their intelligence long time ago, a compound near the heart of their country. Yet they are requesting outside help and the lack of actions themself is just mystery to me, if this doesn't show their incompetence I don't know what will.
1) They found the suspicious mansion, but it isn't (suspicious) enough for them to do any action. In another word, it shows they still have no clue.
2) A select branch of people is harbouring him.
3) CIA really ignored the warning.
I felt they simply made that statement just to counter CIA cheif's comment, without thinking it through.
It seems obvious that there is a serious dent between the US and Pakistan government, as conflicting reports continue to flush out from both countries. It's rather interesting where this be headed.
Here is just my personal opinion, it's no where professional. I think what the Pakistan is doing right now is playing down the issue how incompetence their intelligence are, or how divided their country is. It is rather shameful that one of the most wanted person on the planet is living right under their nose. Even if a certain branch of their government is harbouring him, it just shows how powerless the central government is. It just looks ugly either way.
It's obvious to me that they are putting the blame on the US for their inaction, but in the same time it exposed certain flaws in their statement. They pointed out this compound is suspicious to their intelligence long time ago, a compound near the heart of their country. Yet they are requesting outside help and the lack of actions themself is just mystery to me, if this doesn't show their incompetence I don't know what will.
This quote shows the conflict to the statement to what I just described. For all the statements from Pakistani Foreign Ministry to be true, I think it's either:
1) They found the suspicious mansion, but it isn't (suspicious) enough for them to do any action. In another word, it shows they still have no clue.
2) A select branch of people is harbouring him.
3) CIA really ignored the warning.
I felt they simply made that statement just to counter CIA cheif's comment, without thinking it through.
He has not had any material on any of them that could be used to date his video for several years. If OBL had left some prerecorded in another location we could be getting messages from him for years. It would be a good way to generate confusion in his enemies, and very simple to carry out.
3furymonkey
New Member
But if OBL is really alive somewhere, the best thing for him to do is hold a news paper of the current date, because anything that isn't solid would just be debunked.He has not had any material on any of them that could be used to date his video for several years. If OBL had left some prerecorded in another location we could be getting messages from him for years. It would be a good way to generate confusion in his enemies, and very simple to carry out.
I think it's safe to say that if any pre-recorded messages poped out, the only thing that would pop out from it is the conspiracy theories, which we aren't short of them right now.
Bin Laden 'firefight': Only one man was armed - World news - Death of bin Laden - msnbc.com
I was reading MSNBC report, said only one person was armed in the ENTIRE compound! US seems to confirm that weapons and good intel was found in the house. OBL sure seems to have felt safe and comfy.
Mystery surrounds wounded bin Laden wife - World news - Death of bin Laden - msnbc.com
More details about OBL wife, it appears Pakistanis are interrogating the family members.
Interesting but we aren't getting the full story here. I think there are still a lot of loose threads.
I was reading MSNBC report, said only one person was armed in the ENTIRE compound! US seems to confirm that weapons and good intel was found in the house. OBL sure seems to have felt safe and comfy.
Mystery surrounds wounded bin Laden wife - World news - Death of bin Laden - msnbc.com
More details about OBL wife, it appears Pakistanis are interrogating the family members.
Interesting but we aren't getting the full story here. I think there are still a lot of loose threads.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/world/asia/05pakistan.html?_r=1&ref=global-home
Interesting account of world leaders opinions and concerns about Pakistan. Seems even locals are starting to ask questions about Pakistan's military and intel community.
It seems some Pakistanis aren't buying the notion that nobody in gov/military knew where OBL was.
I do think the notion that this shows the possible danger to Pak nukes of US or India raid against them is a bit of a stretch.
Interesting account of world leaders opinions and concerns about Pakistan. Seems even locals are starting to ask questions about Pakistan's military and intel community.
It seems some Pakistanis aren't buying the notion that nobody in gov/military knew where OBL was.
I do think the notion that this shows the possible danger to Pak nukes of US or India raid against them is a bit of a stretch.
I really wish you'd stop saying things like that when in an earlier post you admitted that, like most posters here, you can only guess as to the truth of the matter. If you're just guessing, stop using terms like "100%" and "not possible" because you quite clearly aren't in the position to dictate what is and is not possible.
Sampanviking
Banned Member
Well this story gets better and better!
As others have pointed out, the surrounding areas of major Pakistani Military Establishments are "Cordon Sanitaire" which means that not only could somebody not live there without the authorities being aware of them, but also that somebody living their would normally enjoy a high degree of personal security themselves.
Talk about pictures and burial at sea is just smoke and mirrors misdirection. There is only one relevant question from the Mission, Why was Bin Laden not taken alive? The man was the head of an active and deadly International Terrorist Conspiracy, he would know details beyond any other and be the man of most interest to Western Intelligence in terms of being made to talk. He was taken by surprise while unarmed and outnumbered at least 12:1 by some of America's most elite SF. Why then were they more concerned with shutting him up rather than having him talking?
Even true believers must admit, that something here does not add up.
Finally I look at the response of leading Republicans. At such "Cathartic" times, the political leaders of all parties are supposed to come together in a show of national unity. Dick Cheyney may have spoken the words of congratulation, but he looked as if he was swallowing a lemon throughout. Former President Bush has snubbed Obama on his offer to appear together today at ground zero.
We have a saying in the UK "Somebody just shot our fox!!" Which is precisely the message I am getting from Republican quarters.
As others have pointed out, the surrounding areas of major Pakistani Military Establishments are "Cordon Sanitaire" which means that not only could somebody not live there without the authorities being aware of them, but also that somebody living their would normally enjoy a high degree of personal security themselves.
Talk about pictures and burial at sea is just smoke and mirrors misdirection. There is only one relevant question from the Mission, Why was Bin Laden not taken alive? The man was the head of an active and deadly International Terrorist Conspiracy, he would know details beyond any other and be the man of most interest to Western Intelligence in terms of being made to talk. He was taken by surprise while unarmed and outnumbered at least 12:1 by some of America's most elite SF. Why then were they more concerned with shutting him up rather than having him talking?
Even true believers must admit, that something here does not add up.
Finally I look at the response of leading Republicans. At such "Cathartic" times, the political leaders of all parties are supposed to come together in a show of national unity. Dick Cheyney may have spoken the words of congratulation, but he looked as if he was swallowing a lemon throughout. Former President Bush has snubbed Obama on his offer to appear together today at ground zero.
We have a saying in the UK "Somebody just shot our fox!!" Which is precisely the message I am getting from Republican quarters.
if that is true, then why not come out and say it? you'll save a lot more face in saying it was a joint operation rather than having the options being "your either incompetent or you're lying to us".
your assuming that order came from top. truth be told, we have no idea what happened on the ground besides what the evidence is and what they tell us. everything (including what they tell us) is opinion, counter opinion and statements. there could have been many issues that could have popped up could have resulted in a bullet to the head. like reaching into one's clothes or reaching for a weapon or even someone confused and thinks he's doing one of either of those things or something else.
and really there would be no point to "shut him up" as more than likely everything would involve a military tribunal where everything would again be given to the military for a "need to know basis".
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The Obama administration would be in a major pickle if OBL was captured alive.
1) They have promised to shutdown Guantánamo, and have not sent anyone there. If they sent OBL there they risk alienating a large part of their party base.:eek
2) However, if they bring OBL into the US proper he will get all US legal protections, including a lawyer who will tell him to shut-up. There will be no tribunals and there can be NO INTEROGATION. :nutkick
3) The trial, and the costs, will be worse than the one Congress blocked. The political fallout will be massive and extend through the entire 2012 election campaign. :daz
4) OBLs lawyers will be able to demand access to virtually all files from the War-On-Terror. It would be a security nightmare, especially because they will insist on the right to discuss the contents with their client. :ban
The last thing the Obama administration wants is OBL captured alive! :flame
furymonkey
New Member
Here is an interesting article.
ISI claimed they have raided the building in 2003, however it "slipped off our radar" after they fail to find anything.
It seems both countries are changing statements as often as I change my undies.
Osama bin Laden dead: Blackout during raid on bin Laden compound - Telegraph
ISI claimed they have raided the building in 2003, however it "slipped off our radar" after they fail to find anything.
It seems both countries are changing statements as often as I change my undies.