T-90 in Comparison to Western Armour

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Feanor

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Interestingly it seems that the BMPT may find a place in the Land Forces afterall. And that a new MBT likely to be based on Object 640 or Object 195 designs, named project Armada. The Object 195 itself will not be purchased by the Land Forces.

There is a hint at the end at adapting the 57mm auto-cannon module developed as a PT-76 upgrade, may be incorporated into it.

Ð*кÑперты обÑудили танк Т-90 и другую бронетехнику*—*ОÐ*УЖИЕ Ð*ОССИИ, Каталог вооружениÑ, воÐнной и Ñпециальной техники
 

Abraham Gubler

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And that a new MBT likely to be based on Object 640 or Object 195 designs, named project Armada. The Object 195 itself will not be purchased by the Land Forces.
Its still just an upgraded T-90. The T-90AM with a 32 round turret bustle autoloader for ammunition derived from the Black Eagle system.

Interestingly it seems that the BMPT may find a place in the Land Forces afterall.
I doubt it. As was made clear by Kovalenko they don't have a requirement from the Army. They would like one... but don't have it. Since the Russian Army can hardly afford new tanks its unlikely they will spend on a tank APC.

There is a hint at the end at adapting the 57mm auto-cannon module developed as a PT-76 upgrade, may be incorporated into it.
There was no reference to the PT-76. The Russians also have a lightweight 57mm gun that can be fired from an infantry mount. This would be likely considereing the BMPT's external turret.
 

charlessmith45

Banned Member
Hey, all.

On russian website I've seen too many sayings like "Abrams' piece of crap - T-90 the best". So I was just wondering, is T-90 that great? Because I have a hard time believing it. I'm not saying it's not a good tank - it is. But is it, like the russkies say, best of all?

TIA.
This is the main thing when dealing with this kind of ?. The Russians have skilled tank crews but none nerly as good as the US has. And the tanks that the Abrams will have to fight will be run by newbs that just got the tank and dont really understand them like we understand ours. Tank wise however since the gun has not changed that mush we can expect the same result as the gulf
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
This is the main thing when dealing with this kind of ?. The Russians have skilled tank crews but none nerly as good as the US has. And the tanks that the Abrams will have to fight will be run by newbs that just got the tank and dont really understand them like we understand ours. f
What the hell are you talking about??? Why would all the Russian tank crews be newbies? What on earth makes you think that they do not understand their tanks well?

Even more saw why would the Russian and American Tank crews be facing off one another???????
 

SASWanabe

Member
What the hell are you talking about??? Why would all the Russian tank crews be newbies? What on earth makes you think that they do not understand their tanks well?

Even more saw why would the Russian and American Tank crews be facing off one another???????
go back and read his post

he is saying that russian tanks and crews are good. but not all people who have russian tanks have russian crews. (i.e most of the planet)
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
go back and read his post

he is saying that russian tanks and crews are good. but not all people who have russian tanks have russian crews. (i.e most of the planet)
Other than Russia and India no other country has T-90s, and both of their crews are good.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
nowhere did he mention the T-90. and are you saying Indian crews are as good as US and Russian crews?
This being a T-90 thread, I assumed he was talking about the T-90. I can't compare Indian and American crews but India has been a tank army for a long a time and have a lot of experience with them, their T-90 crews were trained by Russia.
 

Feanor

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Staff member
Its still just an upgraded T-90. The T-90AM with a 32 round turret bustle autoloader for ammunition derived from the Black Eagle system.
As far as I can tell the Armada project is separate from the T-90AM, which will be publicly shown in September this year. The Armada project has a completion date of 2015.

I doubt it. As was made clear by Kovalenko they don't have a requirement from the Army. They would like one... but don't have it. Since the Russian Army can hardly afford new tanks its unlikely they will spend on a tank APC.
That will probably be the case.

There was no reference to the PT-76. The Russians also have a lightweight 57mm gun that can be fired from an infantry mount. This would be likely considereing the BMPT's external turret.
The only recent 57mm development was this: 57-мм модуль, созданный на базе морской зенитной пушки С-60, первоначально разрабатывался по заказу Вьетнама для модернизации танков ПТ-76. Но затем в силу экономических трудностей заказчика работы приостановились. Дальнейшая разработка шла за счет собственных средств, которые пока не позволяют заняться постройкой опытных образцов и проведением их полигонных испытаний. В настоящее время модуль прорабатывается в виде ЗСУ для сухопутных войск, а также семейства боевых отделений для легкой бронетехники. Последний вариант, возможно, был бы весьма интересен, поскольку базовое орудие обладает отличными баллистическими характеристиками, а снаряды 57-мм калибра более чем в два раза эффективнее 30-миллиметровых. В частности, на расстоянии километра бронебойный снаряд такого калибра пробивает кирпичную преграду толщиной 1 метр. Максимальная дальность стрельбы 57-мм пушки - 17 километров.

In other words a 57mm gun based on the S-60, as a universal combat module for armored vehicles as a replacement for 30mm guns. The original design was to upgrade PT-76 tanks for Vietnam.

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Note here:
http://lenta.ru/news/2011/04/28/armada/
http://www.kp.ru/daily/25677.4/837032/

The Armada is supposed to be a cheaper version of the Object 195, which was rejected recently rumors say because it was too expensive. It will use the technologies developed in the Black Eagle project and other previous designs.
 

recce

New Member
Some insight


I've been reading this topic and the statements made about allmost all the different tanks on this globe with great interest. Some of the statements are actually quite interesting and eye-openers, others much less. Of course, there are differences between all tanks. Each tank is developed by and for a specific country/ area. A tank that performs excellent in the desert (Merkava series for example) could prove to perform much less in other areas. The European/ American tanks needed adjustments for the desert, even though they perform well in Europe.

Something I've missed with most comments is the insight on the development of Russian tanks. You can read about that in an article from armor magazine (july-august 1998) entitled "Why 3 Tanks?", www,docstoc,com/docs/69749222/Why-Three-Tanks]Why Three Tanks

For those of you who haven't got the time (or simply don't want) to read the entire article, it comes down to this. The fact that the Russians produced (and thus fielded) three different tanks at the same time to what appeared to be the same requirements had very little to do with different tank threats, but much more with the power of the "Oboronka" (Russian slang for Military Industrial Complex) and the fact that there where two main design bureaus (Nizhny Tagil and Omsk) who where very desperately trying to beat eachother. This goes back to well before WW2 and led to a series of parallel designs with each newer tank designed by the other design bureau.

In short, the KV-1 was built by the Design bureau in Omsk (then located in Leningrad) when Nizhny Tagil developed the T-34/76. This resulted in the development of the KV-2, which in turn resulted in the T-34/85. This led to the development of the IS-2 and IS-3 in Omsk, which then led to the development of the T-54/55 in Nizhny Tagil and so on. Eventually Nizhny Tagil developed the T-72, Omsk developed the T-64 and T-80.

According to the forementioned article the T-64 was a very problematic tank which never lived up to it's expectations (therefore the small production numbers), the T-80 wasn't much better and the faulty autoloader (which was inherited from the T-64) in combination with high fuel comsumption (due to the gasturbine) resulted in the poor performance of the T-80's in Chechnya. The T-72, although the export models proved to be weak, seems to be the only tank in Russian service that fills all requirements set by the Russian DoD.
After gulfwar 2 the T-72BM was hastily renamed to T-90 to try and shake off the stigma from Iraq.

For those who say that the T-72's/ T-90's essentially still use the same gun today as they did when the T-72 was first fielded, you might be in for a nasty surprise. The tanks, including their guns and ammunitions, where steadily improved. The first T-72's where fielded to counter the M-60, Chieftain and Leopard-1 and weren't able to launch ATGM's from their gun tubes . Later versions where improved to counter the threat of that moment and did have ATGM launching capabilities.
The T-72BM (or T-90) was equipped to counter the M1A1, Challenger-2, Leopard 2A4 and ZTZ-96. The T-90A counters the M1A2, Challenger-2, Leopard 2A5 and ZTZ-98. As of september this year their will be an improved version of the T-90A, the T-90AM. Specifics aren't yet known, but it is likely to be meant to counter the M1A2 SEP, Leopard 2A6 and ZTZ-99.

According to some sources the Russians have had DU ammunitions (BM-32) for their 125mm guns since 1978, but haven't used it in combat because it proved less powerful then their Tungsten BM-42. Also, the latest version (the BM-42M) is reported to have the same penetrating abilities as the German DM-53 (as used with the Leopard 2A6).

The Russians tend to equip export countries (including former WP-countries) with inferiour copies from their own tanks. For example, a big difference between the Iraqi T-72's and the Russian ones is that the Iraqi T-72 had an older gun which wasn't able to launch ATGM's from the gun tube and had obsolete ammunition (meant to counter the M-60 and with a much shorter effective range). They had cast steel armor (Russian T-72's have layered composite armor) which was also thinner then the Russian package. Last but not least, the Iraqi T-72's weren't equipped with NV equipment whereas Russian ones have always been equipped with some form of NV.

Then there is the fact of differences in strategical and doctrinal thinking. The west likes to use state-of-the-art technology in combination with well trained personnel, which comes down to expensive vehicles with well trained and educated crewmen. Those vehicles and crewmen are hard to replace, so much effort is put in vehicle and crew survivability.
Russia wants to have their equipment modern, but not so modern that a lengthy training is needed before one can operate these tanks. Russia still uses the lessons learned from WW2, they want vast numbers in times of large scale warfare.
They want to have military equipment which is modern and potent, but also easy and fast to produce, relatively cheap and simple and robust enough that ill-trained people can operate them with good results.

That means that Russian equipment (at least tankwise) will probably never best western equipment in one-on-one engagements, the Russians have always relied on numerical superiority (both in force and production numbers) and the combination of manoeuvre assets with vast fire-support. This means that in case of a war between NATO and Russia (god forbid it happens) for example one Leopard-2A6 would be faced by at least 3 T-90's. The big difference Russia being able to replace rapidly and easily whereas NATO will have a much harder time doing the same. Which means that NATO needs a quick and decisive war, whereas Russia will try to fight a war of attrition. Quite identical to the German experience on the Eastern Front, the T-34's just kept on coming.
 

Feanor

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Then there is the fact of differences in strategical and doctrinal thinking. The west likes to use state-of-the-art technology in combination with well trained personnel, which comes down to expensive vehicles with well trained and educated crewmen. Those vehicles and crewmen are hard to replace, so much effort is put in vehicle and crew survivability.
Russia wants to have their equipment modern, but not so modern that a lengthy training is needed before one can operate these tanks. Russia still uses the lessons learned from WW2, they want vast numbers in times of large scale warfare.
They want to have military equipment which is modern and potent, but also easy and fast to produce, relatively cheap and simple and robust enough that ill-trained people can operate them with good results.
Replace Russian with Soviet. Current Russian design is in a violent and painful transition. What it will look like by the time this transition finalizes, is going to be nothing like what it looks like now. The T-90AM is already a clear sign in the direction of movement.

That means that Russian equipment (at least tankwise) will probably never best western equipment in one-on-one engagements, the Russians have always relied on numerical superiority (both in force and production numbers) and the combination of manoeuvre assets with vast fire-support. This means that in case of a war between NATO and Russia (god forbid it happens) for example one Leopard-2A6 would be faced by at least 3 T-90's.
No it won't. The current Russian military will never field sufficient quantities of the T-90 to outnumber the combined NATO tank fleet. Not to mention that this isn't their purpose. NATO has been defined as an object of strategic deterrence. While some of the current doctrine is still technically oriented towards dealing with a NATO-level (in terms of technology and doctrine) adversary, this is only on a very limited scale.

The big difference Russia being able to replace rapidly and easily whereas NATO will have a much harder time doing the same. Which means that NATO needs a quick and decisive war, whereas Russia will try to fight a war of attrition. Quite identical to the German experience on the Eastern Front, the T-34's just kept on coming.
Except the T-34 was a beast compared to the Pz 1, 2, 3 and 4 of the early war German tanks, something that can not be said of the T-90A next to the Leo 2A6.
 

Waylander

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That it's easier to learn how to fight with a T than it is with a Leopard II, Abrams etc. is not correct.
There is not much difference for the crew as alot of what makes a good crew hasn't to do with the tech used in a tank but with how to use and employ a tank.

And in the end a Leopard II isn't much more complex than a T-90. It remains a traditional diesel engined tank using torsion bars for it's suspension. Sure you need your special maintenance guys for stuff like the FCS, TI or battlefield management system but a T-90 fields at least two of these things, too.
I would be surprised if russian crews could maintain more of their tank on their own compared to western crews.

As for the ability to outproduce the west. The Sovjets were never able to outproduce the West in relative terms. They just ended up having more of their economy on near wartime footing so they could produce more during peacetime. And that's what ultimately broke them.

These days I expect Germany alone to be able to outproduce Russia if both economies would go into wartime mode.

That's the core of some of the problems Russia is facing these days. They field T designs which don't really fit into their proposed force structure anymore.
The times of massive production runs are over and so some of the design compromises (which imho were right when decided upon) of the Ts come back to hunt them.
 

recce

New Member
No it won't. The current Russian military will never field sufficient quantities of the T-90 to outnumber the combined NATO tank fleet. Not to mention that this isn't their purpose. NATO has been defined as an object of strategic deterrence. While some of the current doctrine is still technically oriented towards dealing with a NATO-level (in terms of technology and doctrine) adversary, this is only on a very limited scale.
Quite off-topic but.... It is true that the Russian armed forces aren't capable of dealing with a large scale war at this time, let alone NATO. We probably all read the reports from the Russian war with Georgia, which clearly stated that the Georgian army was the largest conventional force the Russian army could deal with at that time. The Russian military doctrine 2010 is however rather clear about the current dangers;
The listed dangers were specific and referred to a great extent to the West.

First of all, the doctrine stated the danger of NATO globalizing its endeavors, attempting to expand its military infrastructure closer to Russian borders, and expanding by adding new members. Clearly, this referred to the intended enlargement of NATO by including Georgia and -until the 2010 Presidential elections- Ukraine.

The next doctrinal danger abroad was the deployment (or expansion) of foreign military contingents on territories neighboring Russia or its allies. This probably pointed at the American military contingents deployed in Romania and Bulgaria. Another listed foreign danger was the development and deployment of missile defense systems. Although not specifically mentioned, this provision presumably meant the global U.S. missile defense network of which the annulled one in Poland and the Czech Republic was a part.

Next, territorial claims against Russia and its allies were mentioned. In earlier public statements on
the forthcoming doctrine, reference was made to Japan concerning the Kuril Islands. Finally, the doctrine pronounced the danger of the use of military force on territories neighboring Russia in violation of the UN Charter and other norms of international law. This entry possibly addressed NATO's attack on Serbia in the Kosovo conflict in 1999, but even more, Georgia' s attack on South Ossetia in August 2008.

It's just what one likes to call "very limited scale" in a doctrine in which 9 out of 10 " dangers" are West/ NATO related....

Except the T-34 was a beast compared to the Pz 1, 2, 3 and 4 of the early war German tanks, something that can not be said of the T-90A next to the Leo 2A6.
It depends on which aspect of the T-34 and Pz-3 (or early 4, since the Pz.1 and 2 where never intended to be used in combat) one wants to emphasize (or the current T-90A for that matter). In terms of firepower and amour the T-34 was far better, but the Pz-3's and 4's had more (for that time) state-of-the-art technology onboard (electrical turrets, better sights, radiosets) none of which was available in Russian tanks including the T-34 (they used flags untill later on in the war). The T-90 might not be able to shoot as far as the Leopard 2A6 or the M1A2 Abrams, it might have weaker armour, but it can also be equipped with stuff we're only just starting to develop in the West (Arena for example, which makes the T-90 virtually impregnable to guided missiles).
So again, it all depends on which aspect one wants to emphasize in comparing vehicles.
 
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Feanor

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And in the end a Leopard II isn't much more complex than a T-90. It remains a traditional diesel engined tank using torsion bars for it's suspension. Sure you need your special maintenance guys for stuff like the FCS, TI or battlefield management system but a T-90 fields at least two of these things, too.
And the T-90AM is supposedly getting a battlefield management system. So they're certainly not traveling down the simple path.
 

Feanor

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Staff member
Quite off-topic but.... It is true that the Russian armed forces aren't capable of dealing with a large scale war at this time, let alone NATO. We probably all read the reports from the Russian war with Georgia, which clearly stated that the Georgian army was the largest conventional force the Russian army could deal with at that time. The Russian military doctrine 2010 is however rather clear about the current dangers;
The listed dangers were specific and referred to a great extent to the West.
Hardly. The Russian military could very well deal with a much larger conventional force. It just wouldn't be as pretty or smooth as the Georgian War. As it stands the Russian military could deal with any of their neighbors. A separate exception might be China, or Japan.

First of all, the doctrine stated the danger of NATO globalizing its endeavors, attempting to expand its military infrastructure closer to Russian borders, and expanding by adding new members. Clearly, this referred to the intended enlargement of NATO by including Georgia and -until the 2010 Presidential elections- Ukraine.
You think a Russian response to Ukranian elections would be tanks? It isn't impossible that if another Yuschenko comes to power plays on nationalism and tries to forcibly remove the BSF before the time is up it could turn into a shooting incident. But again it wouldn't be NATO related. Or in other words, we wouldn't be looking at Leo2s, Chally's and M1s rolling through Kiev or Smolensk.

The next doctrinal danger abroad was the deployment (or expansion) of foreign military contingents on territories neighboring Russia or its allies. This probably pointed at the American military contingents deployed in Romania and Bulgaria. Another listed foreign danger was the development and deployment of missile defense systems. Although not specifically mentioned, this provision presumably meant the global U.S. missile defense network of which the annulled one in Poland and the Czech Republic was a part.
What's this got to do with MBT development?

Next, territorial claims against Russia and its allies were mentioned. In earlier public statements on
the forthcoming doctrine, reference was made to Japan concerning the Kuril Islands. Finally, the doctrine pronounced the danger of the use of military force on territories neighboring Russia in violation of the UN Charter and other norms of international law. This entry possibly addressed NATO's attack on Serbia in the Kosovo conflict in 1999, but even more, Georgia' s attack on South Ossetia in August 2008.

It's just what one likes to call "very limited scale" in a doctrine in which 9 out of 10 " dangers" are West/ NATO related....
The Georgian war was not NATO related or west related. It was Russia managing the near abroad, completely ignoring any desire from the West for alternative outcomes. Generally the west has accepted this. Georgia was a problem long before it was a NATO candidate, expressed any desire to become one, even before Saakashvili came to power. Again there was little threat of facing NATO forces.

It depends on which aspect of the T-34 and Pz-3 (or early 4, since the Pz.1 and 2 where never intended to be used in combat) one wants to emphasize (or the current T-90A for that matter). In terms of firepower and amour the T-34 was far better, but the Pz-3's and 4's had more (for that time) state-of-the-art technology onboard (electrical turrets, better sights, radiosets) none of which was available in Russian tanks including the T-34 (they used flags untill later on in the war). The T-90 might not be able to shoot as far as the Leopard 2A6 or the M1A2 Abrams, it might have weaker armour, but it can also be equipped with stuff we're only just starting to develop in the West (Arena for example, which makes the T-90 virtually impregnable to guided missiles).
So again, it all depends on which aspect one wants to emphasize in comparing vehicles.
ARENA isn't used on the T-90A. Shtora is, but it's hardly very impressive. It amounts to some rudimentary counter-measures against laser-guided missiles.
 

Waylander

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And the T-90AM is supposedly getting a battlefield management system. So they're certainly not traveling down the simple path.
That's where I was heading for.
These days Russia tries to implement the same gadgets as anybody else and the Sovjet Union tried the same but had problems due to industrial limitations (TIs).

My point is that the myth of Sovjet/Russian tanks from T-64 onwards being easier to maintain than their western counterparts is just that...a myth.
 

Feanor

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Staff member
That's where I was heading for.
These days Russia tries to implement the same gadgets as anybody else and the Sovjet Union tried the same but had problems due to industrial limitations (TIs).

My point is that the myth of Sovjet/Russian tanks from T-64 onwards being easier to maintain than their western counterparts is just that...a myth.
Well it wasn't a myth with regards to the T-55, and possibly the T-62. And those types remained in service as late as 2005. The T-62 saw combat in Afghan. So it isn't entirely untrue. It may also be applicable to export variant T-72s.
 

Waylander

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Because of this I wrote of T-64s and newer designs.
Sure a T-55 is a rugged machine which can take lots of beating before breaking down.
But the modern tanks are not it's contemporaries.
We should at least try to focus on more modern designs as the T-90 owns much more design features to it's predecessors (64/72/80) than to the T-54/55/62.

My point remains that Russian and Sovjet tanks are not really easier to maintain than their contemporaries.
 

Feanor

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Staff member
Well I'm not sure we can lump the T-72 together with the T-64/T-80 family. Those two are clearly related and are a product of the same design school. The T-72 was an attempt to carry the simplicity and efficiency of the T-55 and T-62 into a third-gen MBT. Consequently it isn't quite as hard on the maintenance, but also is rather lacking in performance. Of course as technology gets more sophisticated, it becomes harder and harder to work the simplicity-efficiency line. Russian and Soviet (ab)use of MLRS is a perfect example.

In Russia there's a saying, that in Russia it's easier to build an off-road vehicle then to build good roads. The T-72 was a product of much of this mentality, and the T-90 has inherited its weak spots in that regard, while already being too sophisticated to benefit from whatever maintenance short cuts the T-72 may have incorporated. When you consider the crew size reduction in combination with this increasing sophistication it becomes fairly obvious that the maintenance burden on the average Russian tanker is greater.
 
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