The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[1805]

Yes, although the loss of CVS is overplayed imo. What essential scenario would a GR.9 amphib force undertake than Ocean/Lusty with Apache could not do now?
Given the Prime Minister would not countenance any army cut in personnel, the CVS were a prime candidate for the snip. Ark/GR.9 was a paper tiger.



This of course is the biggest downer from CVS loss, the ability to transition as easily between CVS & CVF.
Is CVF gold plated? It won't have its own VLS/Asters, I understand it won't be as armoured as it could have been to save on costs. The cost of CVF is a lot of government fudge and waste of money on delays rather than the ship itself.



Given that 2% of GDP looks like being the norm for the forseeable future, i'd argue that we will be forced into doing just that anyway from now on.

I agree on the GR9 the loss of the FA2 was much more critical for the RN. There is an irony in the CVF in that the money has just been wasted...very similar to the MR4.

I do see positive signs with the T26 which does look like it will be a cheaper design from the start, but this has been forced on the RN by the Government so as soon as they can get back to overspecing and dreaming they will.

 

[riksavage]

Yes, although the loss of CVS is overplayed imo. What essential scenario would a GR.9 amphib force undertake than Ocean/Lusty with Apache could not do now?
Given the Prime Minister would not countenance any army cut in personnel, the CVS were a prime candidate for the snip. Ark/GR.9 was a paper tiger.



This of course is the biggest downer from CVS loss, the ability to transition as easily between CVS & CVF.
Is CVF gold plated? It won't have its own VLS/Asters, I understand it won't be as armoured as it could have been to save on costs. The cost of CVF is a lot of government fudge and waste of money on delays rather than the ship itself.



Given that 2% of GDP looks like being the norm for the forseeable future, i'd argue that we will be forced into doing just that anyway from now on.

The QE’s were never intended to have Aster, the RN believes area defence is the preserve of the escorts. 6 x T45 will provide more than enough fat to escort a single in-role flag/strike/hybrid carrier. Also the armouring issue was computer modelled infinitum by QuinteQ who determined separation of critical infrastructure and bulkhead design offered an optimum solution given cost restrictions (accept for strategic and classified placement of steel/Kevlar). There isn’t a great deal one could do to mitigate the impact of a silkworm/sunburn without reverting to battleship levels of armour plate.

In WWII US and Jap carriers had no armour, they wanted to carry more planes due to distances from landbased airfields in the Pacific. The RN built armoured carriers because they were always in range of German airfields, the price was a lower number of embarked aircraft. Like tanks there's always a trade off between firepower (aircraft on carriers), armour and mobility (speed for carriers)

The CdG has Aster, but very few horizon escorts. Plus what happens if you want to fire something like Aster if you have inbound/outbound aircraft cycling through the flight deck, is all deck activaty stopped?

Note attached comparison between T45 & T23 (photo of Dauntless next to T23). If they use a T45 hull as a baseline for T26, she will have a pretty broad beam.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/img/ope...hms-dauntless/photo-gallery/t45-and-t23-3.jpg

 

[1805]

The QE’s were never intended to have Aster, the RN believes area defence is the preserve of the escorts. 6 x T45 will provide more than enough fat to escort a single in-role flag/strike/hybrid carrier. Also the armouring issue was computer modelled infinitum by QuinteQ who determined separation of critical infrastructure and bulkhead design offered an optimum solution given cost restrictions (accept for strategic and classified placement of steel/Kevlar). There isn’t a great deal one could do to mitigate the impact of a silkworm/sunburn without reverting to battleship levels of armour plate.

In WWII US and Jap carriers had no armour, they wanted to carry more planes due to distances from landbased airfields in the Pacific. The RN built armoured carriers because they were always in range of German airfields, the price was a lower number of embarked aircraft. Like tanks there's always a trade off between firepower (aircraft on carriers), armour and mobility (speed for carriers)

The CdG has Aster, but very few horizon escorts. Plus what happens if you want to fire something like Aster if you have inbound/outbound aircraft cycling through the flight deck, is all deck activaty stopped?

Note attached comparison between T45 & T23 (photo of Dauntless next to T23). If they use a T45 hull as a baseline for T26, she will have a pretty broad beam.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/img/ope...hms-dauntless/photo-gallery/t45-and-t23-3.jpg

The photo also clearly shows just how much higher sensors can be mounted on a larger ship.

 

[StobieWan]

The photo also clearly shows just how much higher sensors can be mounted on a larger ship.

Bigger hull is just better all around - better sea keeping, better endurance, more room for growth and they're easy to work on and manage damage control in.

T26 is looking to be 5,500 tons - but it's not clear if that's full load displacement or what. In terms of capabilities, I understand there's still some debate about what to include - the stern mission bay for instance, isn't a hot favourite by the BAE team.

Ian

 

[Repulse]

Bigger hull is just better all around - better sea keeping, better endurance, more room for growth and they're easy to work on and manage damage control in.

T26 is looking to be 5,500 tons - but it's not clear if that's full load displacement or what. In terms of capabilities, I understand there's still some debate about what to include - the stern mission bay for instance, isn't a hot favourite by the BAE team.

Ian

Good article on t26 in this months Warship World magazine. Pictures differ from those on BAE website, but overall design is similar and as I understand will be fluid till end of year.

Core design requirements look to be affordable, adaptable, sustainable and exportable. Cost considerations have scaled back a few areas but survivability and endurance are key. The mission bay has been scaled back but still in. Also, full length length vertical launchers still on the table.

Planning assumptions are 13 vessels, 8 ASW and 5 GP.

Apparently the 155mm gun has been ruled out. Any ideas why? The RN needs to settle on a longer term medium calibre gun strategy.

 

[riksavage]

Good article on t26 in this months Warship World magazine. Pictures differ from those on BAE website, but overall design is similar and as I understand will be fluid till end of year.

Core design requirements look to be affordable, adaptable, sustainable and exportable. Cost considerations have scaled back a few areas but survivability and endurance are key. The mission bay has been scaled back but still in. Also, full length length vertical launchers still on the table.

Planning assumptions are 13 vessels, 8 ASW and 5 GP.

Apparently the 155mm gun has been ruled out. Any ideas why? The RN needs to settle on a longer term medium calibre gun strategy.

BAE can offer any number of gun configurations and I suspect what ever is the most exportable will be chosen. As they build for the USN, they might as well promote the same product - MK45, particularly if the RN wants to stick with a large calibre shore bombardment tool.

8 ASW & 5 GP. Does that mean all fitted for but not with ASW, basically a towed array plug and play module switched between ships to compliment a standardised bow sonar?

CAMM I thinks a given, but it will be interesting to see if they go with SCALP rather than TacTom. The former might prove more exportable simply because of cost and zero requirement to get the US involved. With the new Anglo-French accord in full swing they might opt for SCALP to keep manufacture in Europe. Plus using both TacTom (SSN) and SCALP avoids any supply chain issues associated with any order bottlenecks.

 

[kev 99]

Apparently the 155mm gun has been ruled out. Any ideas why? The RN needs to settle on a longer term medium calibre gun strategy.

Development funds dried up for it ages ago, I'll wager most of the T26 systems inlcusing its Main gun will come off the shelf.

 

[t68]

There seems to be some conjecture about the possible return of the harrier fleet.
According to this report it appears to have been some problems logistically in supporting the RAF in Italy and at one stage the Italians might withdraw basing rights, has anyone heard what the problems were.

It seems in the back rooms certain people are now realising that the cut backs to the RN may have been too great and have now realised how versatile fast air in the RN actually was.

'Non-slip paint' is a clue to possible reprieve for threatened Harrier jets - Scotsman.com News

http://news.scotsman.com/defence-cuts/Cameron-under-pressure-over-cuts.6746077.jp

 

[Jhom]

There seems to be some conjecture about the possible return of the harrier fleet.
According to this report it appears to have been some problems logistically in supporting the RAF in Italy and at one stage the Italians might withdraw basing rights, has anyone heard what the problems were.

It seems in the back rooms certain people are now realising that the cut backs to the RN may have been too great and have now realised how versatile fast air in the RN actually was.

'Non-slip paint' is a clue to possible reprieve for threatened Harrier jets - Scotsman.com News

Cameron under pressure over cuts as RAF chief says it is at breaking point - Scotsman.com News

It will be a great notice if finally UK reactivates the Harrier fleet , its been a while since the MoD get rid of them and it seems that they are correcting that hug mistake...

Maybe thinking in a full scale intervention in Lybia? who knows...

 

[t68]

Maybe thinking in a full scale intervention in Lybia? who knows...

I cannot see anybody putting boots on the ground in Libya in support of the rebels.

The will is not there nor is the requirement this is a civil war. I do not support the air intervention either but it looks like it brought out the deficiencies in the services and cut backs which might compel those making the rash decisions to sit up and take notice of the UK defence force problems, problems of their own making.

Analysis: PM seems determined to stick to his guns but Libya may change all that - Scotsman.com News

 

[SASWanabe]

i find with all military spending, there is a give and take.

if the MOD allows the RN to reactivate the harriers, what will they take?

 

[riksavage]

I cannot see anybody putting boots on the ground in Libya in support of the rebels.

The will is not there nor is the requirement this is a civil war. I do not support the air intervention either but it looks like it brought out the deficiencies in the services and cut backs which might compel those making the rash decisions to sit up and take notice of the UK defence force problems, problems of their own making.

Analysis: PM seems determined to stick to his guns but Libya may change all that - Scotsman.com News

Libya is in Europe's backyard, and once EU Governments backed Gadhafis removal they had go all the way and see it through, There's no way back now, too much at stake politically and economically - we all need high-grade Libyan crude. If he wins he will go back to his old ways of training, arming and supplying terrorist groups by way of revenge. In a UK context this means the Real IRA who are already banging the war drum again and have begun ramping up attacks. The last think Britain needs is ten thousand troops back in NI and 500lb devices exploding in the City of London thanks to semtex stamped - 'courtesy of Gadhafi.'

The Italians are getting cold feet and are making life difficult for those using the country's airfields. The RN Mafia are playing this up and pushing behind the scenes for a return of enough Harrier airframes to equip Illustrious as a fall-back option. If this happens (which it won't) something else has to give.

Haig is meeting Gates in DC to discuss ways of ramping up activity and to see whether cutting off the head of the snake is a realistic option.

The Libya operation is a reminder that 'shock' events can and do happen outside the realms of likely scenarios discussed during the SDR process. It may not save Harrier, but it does reinforce the need for expeditionary capabilities in the air (CAP, CAS + Tankers) and at sea. (balanced fleet) and remind CDS that all future conflicts will not be landlocked A-Stan type endeavors far from home.

I hope they keep Lusty over Ocean though, she was built as a Warship, not under commercial regs.

 

[kev 99]

The Italians are getting cold feet and are making life difficult for those using the country's airfields. The RN Mafia are playing this up and pushing behind the scenes for a return of enough Harrier airframes to equip Illustrious as a fall-back option. If this happens (which it won't) something else has to give.

Strange way of getting 'cold feet'; finally allowing the Italian airforce to join in airstrikes against Gaddaffi's forces.

 

[t68]

I hope they keep Lusty over Ocean though, she was built as a Warship, not under commercial regs.

HMS Ocean only has another 7 years left in her if they pay her off as planned in 2018, if they do sell ocean she would be a very cheap ship, i wonder who would pick her up if they got rid of her and could they extended the life to get an extra 10 or so years out of her.

But then one only has to look at the old Majestic class carrier (a modified 1942 design light fleet carrier) these carriers were built as disposable carriers at the end of WWII or 3 years of entering service, but a number of these carriers lasted a lot longer than planned up to 56 years for the ex HMS Vengeance and later the Brazilian navy NAeL Minas Gerais.

It will be interesting to what they eventually do

Libya is in Europe's backyard, and once EU Governments backed Gadhafis removal they had go all the way and see it through, There's no way back now, too much at stake politically and economically.

Yes it does appear to be left leaving you in between a rock and a hard place. I wonder if the pollies realised this before committing themselves to this action.

Our own foreign minister Kevin Rudd banged on about a no fly zone at the start knowing Australia where going to do sweet f#%K all.

 

[riksavage]

HMS Ocean only has another 7 years left in her if they pay her off as planned in 2018, if they do sell ocean she would be a very cheap ship, i wonder who would pick her up if they got rid of her and could they extended the life to get an extra 10 or so years out of her.

But then one only has to look at the old Majestic class carrier (a modified 1942 design light fleet carrier) these carriers were built as disposable carriers at the end of WWII or 3 years of entering service, but a number of these carriers lasted a lot longer than planned up to 56 years for the ex HMS Vengeance and later the Brazilian navy NAeL Minas Gerais.

It will be interesting to what they eventually do




Yes it does appear to be left leaving you in between a rock and a hard place. I wonder if the pollies realised this before committing themselves to this action.

Our own foreign minister Kevin Rudd banged on about a no fly zone at the start knowing Australia where going to do sweet f#%K all.

747 Rudd is good at talking up the big stick, but appears to fall very silent when it comes to actual deployments.

The Libya issue has major connotations for NATO, It has yet again proved how dysfunctional the organization has become since the demise of the Soviet Union (when it had a single bogey man to worry about). Events are happening too quickly to allow member states to react in a common way without risking domestic wrath.

I for one am even more convinced the Anglo-French Alliance was the right move (I say that through gritted teeth). Won't be easy, but they are two nations with common interests with operationally compatible militaries who are still prepared to act.

The following quote was taken from Spiegal, which sums up NATO's dilemma and potential subdivision:

"Opinions among the member states diverge greatly on each of these questions. And the member states are currently unable to agree to a common NATO strategy on any of these issues that is politically palatable for each country. Indeed, NATO today lacks the kind of supreme strategic objective that united all NATO partners up until the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.
And as long as there is no solidarity or political will among all the member states to establish a substantial new strategy that goes beyond painless closing statements at summits that pay diplomatic lip service but add little in terms of content, NATO's ability to act militarily will remain compromised. And the more it loses its ability to act collectively, the more we will see individual NATO member states seeking out "coalitions of the willing," if those alignments better serve their own strategic interests. The result is the loss of one of NATO's key assets, the integration of the security policies of its 28 member states".

Opinion: An Alliance without a Strategy - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

The RN and French Navy make for a potent "coalition of the willing", which post 2020 should be able to field a joint maritime force second only to the US. This new partnership will be tested if Libya continues to drag on, but both know failure is not an option. I expect to see some UOR's to replen expended munitions if the current pace continues.

 

[swerve]

We've already had an order for a lot more Brimstone conversions to dual-mode, which is far more useful in Libya. Given that we have a large stock of original Brimstones, we probably don't need to buy any more because of this operation, & can just keep converting them as required. But some other munitions might need replenishing.

 

[Troothsayer]

It's bizarre that the Scotsman keeps banging the Harrier drum. It isn't going to happen, I also disagree with their 'expeditionary capability' theory. It's not as if the Libya mission was dependent on HMS Cumblerand being there, it could have been any ship.

The VC's and Tristars are getting replaced and the UK will replace the Nimrod R1's with Rivet Joint and the aircraft and personnel from the 2 Tornado squadrons will be distributed to the remaining ones.

I can't see any way the Libya campaign can be anything other than a lengthy attritional one.

 

[Jhom]

It's bizarre that the Scotsman keeps banging the Harrier drum. It isn't going to happen, I also disagree with their 'expeditionary capability' theory. It's not as if the Libya mission was dependent on HMS Cumblerand being there, it could have been any ship.

The VC's and Tristars are getting replaced and the UK will replace the Nimrod R1's with Rivet Joint and the aircraft and personnel from the 2 Tornado squadrons will be distributed to the remaining ones.

I can't see any way the Libya campaign can be anything other than a lengthy attritional one.

5 months ago nobody could what was about to happen and yet nobody knows wtf is exactly happenig right now, at the speed the thing are changing I consider your last claim too much unconvincing...

 

[Sentinel75]

We've already had an order for a lot more Brimstone conversions to dual-mode, which is far more useful in Libya. Given that we have a large stock of original Brimstones, we probably don't need to buy any more because of this operation, & can just keep converting them as required. But some other munitions might need replenishing.

TacticalReport.com is speculating imminent US and French orders for Brimstone dual-mode given its recent performance over Libya.

Saudi Torndado's upgraded under their Tornado Sustainment Programme used the Brimstone against the Houthi rebels last year and they where very impressed by its capabilities (and drew heavily from RAF stocks).

 

[riksavage]

TacticalReport.com is speculating imminent US and French orders for Brimstone dual-mode given its recent performance over Libya.

Saudi Torndado's upgraded under their Tornado Sustainment Programme used the Brimstone against the Houthi rebels last year and they where very impressed by its capabilities (and drew heavily from RAF stocks).

Brimstone appears to be right weapon, right time for once.

According to Plymouth local press

"THE Royal Navy's largest warship HMS Ocean has left Plymouth to join a Devonport-led task force which is on standby amid the continuing crisis in Libya and wider region. The 22,500-tonne helicopter carrier will meet up with the Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels Wave Knight, Fort Rosalie and Mounts Bay, before heading to the Mediterranean after a training period. There it will join the Devonport-based amphibious assault ship HMS Albion, and Type 23 frigate HMS Sutherland, which sailed at the beginning of April as the lead element of the Royal Navy's "very high readiness" Task Group to take part in multi-national amphibious exercises on Operation Cougar 11. HMS Ocean is carrying a mix of support helicopters, Apache attack helicopters and landing craft, enabling the landing of Royal Marines, their vehicles and equipment."

You neve know HMS Ocean might get the chance to blood its embarked Apache (if press repors are true). They will be conveniently located to contribute to ground based operations.