Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Sea Toby]

Unfortunatly its not possible / practical to cannabalise hull plating and structural tanks. They can change out pumps, motors etc until the cows come home but when the hull is being held together by paint it is a pretty pointless exercise.

I believe that is why the government is looking to lease a high speed ferry before the end of the year to supplement Largs Bay along with sharing Canterbury. I doubt whether any of the present Australian fat ships will be active next year. Manoora has already been stricken, Kanimbla will soon be struck with the lease of a high speed ferry, and Tobruk will be struck with the arrival of the Largs Bay.

The fat ships will most likely be Largs Bay, the high speed ferry, and sharing Canterbury until the arrival of the first Canberra LHD... Why waste more funds on the present lot?

 

[StevoJH]

Because unfortunately (ex)Manoora and Kanimbla are the RAN's pair of command ships. For example, whenever Australia commanded the international task force in the Gulf, one of the two LPA's served as command ship.

Take away both ships and the RAN loses the capabiltiy (however much of it Kanimbla can currently provide) and the RAN is stuck with whatever C&C facilities are fitted to the FFG & FFH until such time as the LHD's enter service.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I believe that is why the government is looking to lease a high speed ferry before the end of the year to supplement Largs Bay along with sharing Canterbury.

Well that would be interesting, I can definately see the shortfall until the LHD's come online. Ferrys are cheap to lease (comparatively) and although Jervis Bay was a flawed stop gap, it did an impressive job as a ferry and we would have been in a pickle or had far more limited options if we didn't have her.

I wonder if a US HSV is avalible for the RAN to lease? Some of them are comming the end of their leases. US seems to think they are worthy assets. Able to operate helicopters (including a recovery at 43kt!), special fit water, fuel, bunks etc.

 

[PeterM]

and I'd say that you're being excessively charitable here....

If that is the case, then how are both going to see out there expected service life until the LHDs come into service?

 

[Milne Bay]

Because unfortunately (ex)Manoora and Kanimbla are the RAN's pair of command ships. For example, whenever Australia commanded the international task force in the Gulf, one of the two LPA's served as command ship.

Take away both ships and the RAN loses the capabiltiy (however much of it Kanimbla can currently provide) and the RAN is stuck with whatever C&C facilities are fitted to the FFG & FFH until such time as the LHD's enter service.

How difficult is it to transfer Manoora's command facilities to the Largs Bay?
How long would this take?
If this is too hard, then how long/difficult would it take/be to transfer them to a clean vessel -eg a fast ferry?

 

[icelord]

now that Manoora has been Cannabalised Kanimbla should be in a better material state should she not?

The day the signal came out for 52 decomish the XO of Manoora called the Coxswains into his office, ordered all "Char" items that would make a nice souviner or two to be removed and locked away and be mustered daily, with bag searches at the gangway as people leave, then called all HODS and Regulators in, and told them the ship is locked down and nothing is to leave. We couldnt even secure charts for WA before sail as nothing was too leave at that point. No ship could borrow paint,parts or plates....including Kanimbla. Recently a signal came out saying as long as procedure was followed we could now "gut" manoora, so time will tell. but as mentioned most of kanimblas problems are structural like manoora, its just less areas...Engines would need to be removed and replaced if anything was to be repaired urgent.

 

[gf0012-aust]

How difficult is it to transfer Manoora's command facilities to the Largs Bay?

can't be done at a full systems level

If this is too hard, then how long/difficult would it take/be to transfer them to a clean vessel -eg a fast ferry?

you just can't bolt in CSS/C2/3/4I - its not portable

 

[gf0012-aust]

If that is the case, then how are both going to see out there expected service life until the LHDs come into service?

I doubt that they will, They're basically harbour queens unless something unforeseen happens, and even then its apparent that the negotiations for Largs, Canterbury and a fast mover are the risk mitigation plans

every appendage that can be crossed will,be crossed. The incoming Chief will inherit some ugliness.

 

[Milne Bay]

can't be done at a full systems level



you just can't bolt in CSS/C2/3/4I - its not portable

What then will happen to the CSS/C2/3/4 currently on Manoora?
I presume it wasn't on Manoora when we acquired the ship so it has been installed/developed on board afterwards.
Would it not be useful somewhere else?

 

[gf0012-aust]

What then will happen to the CSS/C2/3/4 currently on Manoora?
I presume it wasn't on Manoora when we acquired the ship so it has been installed/developed on board afterwards.
Would it not be useful somewhere else?

On a ship with USN architecture sympathetic CSS - yes

On an RNRFA asset - not easily - and questionable on a cost integration level as there are systems architecture issues.

eg you could not migrate bill and bens suite into the fat ships, similarly you can't retro fit Aegis into an older (specifically non Aegis engineered) platform

 

[Milne Bay]

On a ship with USN architecture sympathetic CSS - yes

On an RNRFA asset - not easily - and questionable on a cost integration level as there are systems architecture issues.

eg you could not migrate bill and bens suite into the fat ships, similarly you can't retro fit Aegis into an older (specifically non Aegis engineered) platform

Many thanks for that.
What about migrating to a completely "clean" platform - eg an Austal fast cat - as is being considered for the RAN.
Otherwise what will serve as our command ship(s)?

 

[Pusser01]

The day the signal came out for 52 decomish the XO of Manoora called the Coxswains into his office, ordered all "Char" items that would make a nice souviner or two to be removed and locked away and be mustered daily, with bag searches at the gangway as people leave, then called all HODS and Regulators in, and told them the ship is locked down and nothing is to leave. We couldnt even secure charts for WA before sail as nothing was too leave at that point. No ship could borrow paint,parts or plates....including Kanimbla. Recently a signal came out saying as long as procedure was followed we could now "gut" manoora, so time will tell. but as mentioned most of kanimblas problems are structural like manoora, its just less areas...Engines would need to be removed and replaced if anything was to be repaired urgent.

Thought they would do that. They did the same on Canberra and Adelaide, but have to admit I did manage to get a few good rabbits off both. Won't say what or how though

 

[gf0012-aust]

What about migrating to a completely "clean" platform - eg an Austal fast cat - as is being considered for the RAN.

its a short term consideration - they're not going to spend a shed load of money to integrate a complex system into a short term leased asset

Otherwise what will serve as our command ship(s)?

the capability of the command ship is contingent on the task.
eg ANZACs have run international task forces. As the flasg, their job is C2 (minimum) - all they need to do is be able to manage and co-ordinate those other vessels within their remit. You don't need a large vessel to always be the flag. we've had supply vessels as flag assets

large size is a symbolism of the flag vessel - but it doesn't define its role or relevant capability to the theatre of operations

 

[StingrayOZ]

I doubt they would be able to fit or would have the inclination to fit out a ferry with that level of coms/system. It wouldn't have been designed for that in mind not be able to crew the equipment.

They should have fitted it to the LHD's. The LHD should be our commandships, they have dedicated command space, and will be the hub of operation.

 

[gf0012-aust]

They should have fitted it to the LHD's. The LHD should be our commandships, they have dedicated command space, and will be the hub of operation.

I've said many times before, the phatships will be the purple command ships. they will share the role as required.

 

[citizen578]

Pic of RFA Cardigan Bay inbound Gib, on Cougar '11.

edit: attachment didn't work.

See the picture here
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations-and-support/operations/auriga/news/gibraltar_supports_r.htm

You can see clearly the phalanx arrangement.

 

[t68]

If various ships share the role as flag and command and control, is it worth considering a dedicated command ship(s) similar to the US Blue Ridge class command ship.

With 2 ships dedicated to command and control with an up to date C4ISR suite and the ability to communicate and transmit data across the world using comprehensive communications suite. Once building the new AWD has been completed, 2 more hulls could be built and the upper structure built around a satellite and antenna farm so as to giving it clean and unobstructed communication ability. With one of these being able to deploy with any task force or stand alone deployment the RAN needs to make.

The US Navy -- Fact File: Amphibious Command Ships - LCC
History
USS Mount Whitney (LCC 20)

 

[StingrayOZ]

I've said many times before, the phatships will be the purple command ships. they will share the role as required.

Sorry, rereading what I wrote doesn't convey the idea I was trying to express.

They should have moved across Kan/Man coms/command to the LHD as it is our central command asset.

I assume the RAN thought they would be in service longer than they will be, perhaps as a dedicated command asset in addition to the LHD's? Are there security or other issues with using a LHD with possibly allied but non US/Uk forces onboard as your command asset?

 

[StevoJH]

If various ships share the role as flag and command and control, is it worth considering a dedicated command ship(s) similar to the US Blue Ridge class command ship.

Yes, there names will be HMAS Canberra and HMAS Adelaide.

 

[riksavage]

If various ships share the role as flag and command and control, is it worth considering a dedicated command ship(s) similar to the US Blue Ridge class command ship.

With 2 ships dedicated to command and control with an up to date C4ISR suite and the ability to communicate and transmit data across the world using comprehensive communications suite. Once building the new AWD has been completed, 2 more hulls could be built and the upper structure built around a satellite and antenna farm so as to giving it clean and unobstructed communication ability. With one of these being able to deploy with any task force or stand alone deployment the RAN needs to make.

The US Navy -- Fact File: Amphibious Command Ships - LCC
History
USS Mount Whitney (LCC 20)

I've been on the Blue Ridge whilst it was in HK prior to 97. For Australia it would be massive overkill, why not simply build in the C&C capabilties in both LHD's for the all-arms commanders. They will be catering for and accommodating a puple headshed so it makes sense to add the appropriate C4ISR suite to coordinate land, sea and air operations.