Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Abraham Gubler]

Has the RAN determined whether they need to invest in new landing craft, or will they adapt what they already have?

The RAN doesn’t have any landing craft except for a few LCVPs used for admin movements from the various auxiliaries. The Australian Army on the other hand has a large fleet of LCM8s and other water transport assets which are for more than just fleet amphibious use.

The strange plan however for JP 2048 is the Army will replace many the LCM8s with a small combat boat - at the most a CB90 – for littoral operations. They will have a role in amphibious landings in escorting the new LCMs. The RAN will acquire around 12 LCMs to provide ship to shore movement from the LHDs and sealift ship. The plan is to acquire Navantia LCM1Es as long as they meet the basic spec. Which isn’t such a sure thing.

Considering the varying climate/terrain across Aus, has the RAN ever tested/considered air-cushion units, not talking about the huge tank carrying versions, more small raiding types capable of being loaded/lifted aboard a Bay/Canberra?

The RAN hasn’t but the Army has. A few Skimas (now called Griffons) were operated for some time in the 80s and a licence for their production is held by the shipbuilder in Cairns (whatever their name is today).

 

[swerve]

Why do you keep going on about containers? If all the RAN wanted was to carry containers, it wouldn't have specified something similar to a Bay-class, & been so interested in buying Largs Bay.

She's an amphibious transport ship, not a container ship. She can carry containers, yes - but she has a large vehicle deck (much bigger than that in Galicia or Castilla), & I'm sure that the RAN intends to use that capacity, just as the UK has.

 

[Jhom]

Why do you keep going on about containers? If all the RAN wanted was to carry containers, it wouldn't have specified something similar to a Bay-class, & been so interested in buying Largs Bay.

She's an amphibious transport ship, not a container ship. She can carry containers, yes - but she has a large vehicle deck (much bigger than that in Galicia or Castilla), & I'm sure that the RAN intends to use that capacity, just as the UK has.

Enougth with the containers then, but Im not so sure the vehicle deck is bigger... Galicia can carry more tanks, more vehicles and more troops than the Bay... maybe you need to check your data about that.

And please dont feel like Im saying she is a bad ship, english isnt my mother language so perhaps Im not able to transmit the correct message I wish to point that the Bay is a good ship, and will turn superb with the reffit of the aussies

 

[aussienscale]

Enougth with the containers then, but Im not so sure the vehicle deck is bigger... Galicia can carry more tanks, more vehicles and more troops than the Bay... maybe you need to check your data about that.

And please dont feel like Im saying she is a bad ship, english isnt my mother language so perhaps Im not able to transmit the correct message I wish to point that the Bay is a good ship, and will turn superb with the reffit of the aussies

Different tanks different capacity the Bay is a larger ship with a bigger payload, so not sure where you get you figures from ? Even the linear mtrs is very different, you also have to take into consideration the actual fitout of the ship and the intended use etc. Either way its just a pissing competition, which smacks of the usual Spanish Vs the rest of the world we have seen on this forum from perviously banned members :duel

 

[SASWanabe]

all this talk of the LCMs has gotten me thinking, has anyone heard anything about what is going to replace the Balikpapans? at 40 years old they must be knackered by now.

 

[swerve]

Enougth with the containers then, but Im not so sure the vehicle deck is bigger... Galicia can carry more tanks, more vehicles and more troops than the Bay... maybe you need to check your data about that.

Where would you put a bigger vehicle deck in a ship that's shorter, narrower, & has more troop accommodation, & also has a dock twice the size of that in the Bay class?

Maximum numbers of vehicles don't mean anything unless you know what the conditions are. For example, do they include parking vehicles in the dock?

 

[Sea Toby]

And most posters have noticed the difference between a LSD and a LPD... A LSD is built more for freight whereas a LPD is built more for personnel, although both do both... The British designed her with more freight capabilities in mind and trimmed her aviation capabilities... As mentioned earlier the British have an excellent personnel and aviation capabilities with their LPH, HMS Ocean. Never-the-less she is still capable of handlling heavy lift helicopters, yes Chinooks, and Osprey aircraft along with medium lift helicopters...

The two types, LPD and LSD, complement one another very well... With two LHDs coming soon to complement her, her aviation shortcomings won't be a major issue... The US Navy built over two dozen Arleigh Burke DDGs with better flag facilities over aviation capabilities, and then built over two dozen Arleigh Burke DDGs without flag facilities with better aviation capabilities... The ships complement one another very well...

 

[Sea Toby]

Not really a 'dumbed down' version. They've sacrificed some features (hangar, much smaller dock, less troop accommodation) in order to increase cargo capacity & cargo handling abilities. Redesigned for a different role.

I agree. Some posters have noticed the difference between a LSD and a LPD... A LSD is designed with more freight capabilities, whereas a LPD is designed with more personnel capabilities, although both do both... With excellent aviation and personnel capabilities with their LPH, the British chose to build LSDs... The LSD will complement the excellent aviation and personnel capabilities of the two LHDs Australia will have soon...

 

[Scalator]

Abraham,




The point I was making, is that it is possible to make the modifications that I mentioned/suggested because the Bays are, for a better word, "dummed down" version of the original Dutch and subsequent Spanish designs and if the a hangar was a future option that could be retrofitted without out screwing up the ship.



So all I am assuming is that somewhere in the future, the ship may receive major modifications or will it just push JP2048 Phase 4c 15-20 years down the track, I just don't know, does anybody?

The Spanish Galicia Class is not derived from the Dutch version, each one has their particularities, and similarly the Dutch version is not derived from the Galicia, they cooperative simultaneous designs.

The Bay has a smaller superstructure to gain space for container deck. I suppose it has bunker for naval munition like Galicias that have for 30 torpedos.

Together with any of Lhd makes a complete pack.

If you can put the tent and use cranes for maintenance of marinized helos or Ospreys, then probably could have 2 or 3 helos or Ospreys if required, as it has 2 med spots. Bay´s are ready for Chinooks or Ospreys. Whenever is deployed by itself.

I think in general balance you make most of the ship using the 2nd spot for helos parking and maintenance than gathering still more space for containers. You can think of using helos from the Lhd in future to work with the Bay, but many situations you would thank to based in helos for Bay.

What was the origin of the budget surplus that gave for the 5th Globemaster transport aircraft? Was it actually the budget for the future 3rd sealift ship that was avalaible in advance, what a luck some budget in advance (even years in advance) avalaible?

 

[Systems Adict]

Enougth with the containers then, but Im not so sure the vehicle deck is bigger... Galicia can carry more tanks, more vehicles and more troops than the Bay... maybe you need to check your data about that.

To use your mother tounge (assuming it is Spanish), here's a comparable comment...

"Si su Abuela tuviera pelotas, ella sería su granfather"

Galicia Class Landing Platform Docks (LPD) - Naval Technology

ACCOMMODATION
The Galicia operates with a crew of 115 and provides accommodation for 12 additional crew members.

TRANSPORT CAPABILITY
The class can transport a full battalion of marines and their equipment. The Galicia can carry up to 543 fully equipped troops and an additional 72 aircrew, special operations staff or training crew. The vehicle area is over 1,000m² and can accommodate up to 130 armoured personnel carriers or 33 main battle tanks. The docking well provides an area of 885m².

Bay Class Auxiliary Ship Alternative Landing Ship Logistic (ALSL) - Naval Technology

Crew 60

EMBARKED MILITARY FORCE

The Bay class will support an Embarked Military Force (EMF) of 350 fully equipped troops and up to 700 fully equipped troops in overload conditions in times of crisis or in war.

ALSL BAY CLASS VEHICLE DECK

The vehicle deck can accommodate 24 Challenger 2 main battle tanks or more than 150 light jeeps. The vehicle capacity is 1,200 linear metres.


...Now when you go to the Naval-Technology website, Galacia is in with the LPD's / LPH's & Amphious ships, Bay class are in with Fleet Auxilaries. So does that mean we should compare the Galacia with the Albion / Bulwark ??

I think not....

It's horses for courses & because one ship is good for one task, doesn't translate that it will be as good as or comparable to a 'similar' ship.

The Bays are a MODIFIED VARIANT of the Royal Schelde's Enforcer design, built for the UK.

In other words it is like comparing a Piganni Zonda to a BMW Mini. Yes they are both cars, have engines & 4 wheels, but that is where the comparrison ends.

Just like my rant !

LoL :

SA

 

[Scalator]

Why do you keep going on about containers? If all the RAN wanted was to carry containers, it wouldn't have specified something similar to a Bay-class, & been so interested in buying Largs Bay.

She's an amphibious transport ship, not a container ship. She can carry containers, yes - but she has a large vehicle deck (much bigger than that in Galicia or Castilla), & I'm sure that the RAN intends to use that capacity, just as the UK has.

For Bay it is 24 mbt Challenger 2, for Galicia is 33 mbt M60 for heavy vehicles, so meaning the vehicle deck. But there are so many other thing for sealifting, munition, supplies, containers and other military equipment and fuels, waters..

 

[Scalator]

Where would you put a bigger vehicle deck in a ship that's shorter, narrower, & has more troop accommodation, & also has a dock twice the size of that in the Bay class?

Maximum numbers of vehicles don't mean anything unless you know what the conditions are. For example, do they include parking vehicles in the dock?

No, the site is the Spanish navy site, official, and it is 33 M60 mbt with together the 4 Lcm1e, because those 33 is the parking zone different to dock zone. Now that is meaning the vehicle deck, whether you can count the container deck in Bay as another light vehicle deck is different, but it wouldnt be the heavy vehicle deck.

 

[swerve]

The Armada website says the Galicia class has 1010 square metres of vehicle parking. It also says that 33 M60 can be carried - or 170 M113. That shows that size is not the only factor. Either the M60s must be spaced more widely, or only part of the deck can be used for them. Any comparison of number of tanks which can be carried should take that into account: it is probably not proportional to deck area.

The Bay class is said on the RFA website to have a1200 'linear metre' vehicle deck, more commonly described as 1200 lane metres. The total area depends on how wide a lane is, but it's indisputable that 1200 lane metres is more than 1010 square metres.

 

[Scalator]

The [UR/buques_superficie/03_Buques_anfibios--01_buque-asalto-anfibio-galicia"]Armada website[/URL] says the Galicia class has 1010 square metres of vehicle parking. It also says that 33 M60 can be carried - or 170 M113. That shows that size is not the only factor. Either the M60s must be spaced more widely, or only part of the deck can be used for them. Any comparison of number of tanks which can be carried should take that into account: it is probably not proportional to deck area.

The Bay class is said on the RFA website to have a1200 'linear metre' vehicle deck, more commonly described as 1200 lane metres. The total area depends on how wide a lane is, but it's indisputable that 1200 lane metres is more than 1010 square metres.

Challenger 2 seems like 10 t. heavier than M60, bigger, that´s because is 24 vs 33.

But 1200 lane mts. what is it exactly? if the widht lane is 2 mts gives 2400 sq mts of space, impossible. So possible 1200 lanes mts is just another way of expressing something like 1010-1200 sq meters.eheheh:unknown

 

[gf0012-aust]

The RAN hasn’t but the Army has. A few Skimas (now called Griffons) were operated for some time in the 80s and a licence for their production is held by the shipbuilder in Cairns (whatever their name is today).

Wookie and I had some dealings with him a few years back for some different engineering issues when I was in the US, He and his company might exist on paper, but I'm not so sure its an effective functioning unit (re this work).

(initials DF)

 

[Sea Toby]

To get lane meters from square meters, divide by 2 as Wiki says a lane meter is two meters wide... 1010 square meters would then be 505 lane meters... There is a huge difference between 505 lane meters and 1200 lane meters....

New Zealand's Canterbury has 403 lane meters, or about a third of the lane meters of the Largs Bay...

I will say again a LPD is designed with personnel in mind, whereas a LSD is designed with freight in mind, although both do both... Offhand, generally speaking, the differences in design are LPDs have twice as many landing craft, or twice the length of the well dock, and LPDs have a shorter vehicle deck as the forward part of the vehicle deck is used for accommodations as they carry more troops...

Simply put, one size does not fit all...Although LSDs and LPDs from afar look very similar...

 

[gf0012-aust]

Not heard anything about a UK refit. I'd assume that the Aussies will want to do that 'in-house', so that they can have a look under the covers & see if there's anything wrong that hasn't been declared.

Correct.

The purchase has been "announced", but it is still subject to sea trials and other validation checks. the engineers will go through a deeper inspection

If the deeper inspection raises issues then they would have to be catastrophic to stop the sale, but it could and would trigger more robust negotiations on final end price

 

[Sea Toby]

What was the origin of the budget surplus that gave for the 5th Globemaster transport aircraft? Was it actually the budget for the future 3rd sealift ship that was avalaible in advance, what a luck some budget in advance (even years in advance) avalaible?

The national budget, the Australian government had more revenues last year than the government spent... Therefore a surplus... A surplus doesn't happen every year, but a government need not necessarily run deep deficits every year either...

It wasn't a large surplus as it only bought one new Globemaster aircraft and one fairly new used sea lift ship... Many governments would have used the surplus to help pay down the nation's government debt...

Its like getting a modest Christmas bonus at the end of the year to buy your children a few more Christmas gifts... Not really enough to pay off your entire credit card debt, but enough to purchase a few needed items without going further into debt...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Just read in the paper today that Sinkex is going ahead with the FFG Adelaide tomorrow..

Sweet, should make a really nice dive site, close to Sydney, 32 m of water just out of terrigal.

watch it live at:

Video - LIVE: watch HMAS Adelaide sink - Brisbane Times

Was meant to blow at 10:30AM AEST but it still hasn't gone yet.

There's a bloody dolphin feeding frenzy going on next to the boat so they won't blow it until flipper and co swims away... Could be some time...

 

[Aussie Digger]

Wookie and I had some dealings with him a few years back for some different engineering issues when I was in the US, He and his company might exist on paper, but I'm not so sure its an effective functioning unit (re this work).

(initials DF)

He couldn't raise $20m or so in capital that he needed to guarantee his work worth hundreds of millions on the AWD project, when he already HAD that contract in the bag, so I guess the non-functioning work unit is a bit of an understatement...