Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[StingrayOZ]

I think you're getting a bit carried away with enthusiasm, & forgetting to do the sums. You've seen the possibility of temporarily overtaking the RN, & forgotten about everyone else.

Well I did put some caveats in there. Depending on timing and implimentation and avalibility. Placing my comment in context, the purpose was not pointing out that Australia was the new carrier power taking on all rivals, but that we did not have an urgent need to build a fixed hanger capability on the bay. Even compared to established powers, we are doing ok for planned deck space and sealift.

Although the RAN of 2020 is looking pretty good these days if everything comes down the pipe, the 20xOCV 3000t each, the 2x30,000t LHD, the 3-4 x 7,000t AWD, the 8x 7000t frigates, 12 subs, 1x16000t bay with possibly more ships comming.

im still clinging to my hope that the Bay is seperate to JP2048 as i have only seen Defmin Smith quote it as a stop gap. consider the cost of the Sealift ship was meant to be 300-500m AUD and we bought largs for 100m AUD that still leaves minimum 200m for a second vessel.

Who knows what will come out of the rangling, the Bay meets that requirement very well, but does not complete all our needs. I would imagine spain would still be interested in cutting us a deal for a Galacia or Bay class if we are still interested, with or without australian fitout.

Since the RAN will be limited in the future to an air arm of only 24-30 helicopters I think we have a long way to go before we can get excited about our fleet air strength.

Well how many do we have now, 22 airframes with proberly a fair chunk less of that actually avalible to fly and those MH-90s seem slow to arrive, and the older stuff isn't getting any better. I think this is a real weak area, hopefully the RAN will have some good news on this front.

 

[alexsa]

im still clinging to my hope that the Bay is seperate to JP2048 as i have only seen Defmin Smith quote it as a stop gap. consider the cost of the Sealift ship was meant to be 300-500m AUD and we bought largs for 100m AUD that still leaves minimum 200m for a second vessel.

when you consider the bays were about 120m to build (lets not argue) and even Johan de Witt only cost about 370m USD a south korean shipyard could build either for a sum easily under 400m AUD

One off designs can be quite expensive and many yards that have lows cost achieve this through series production. I would not assume too much on what you could get for 300 million.

 

[SASWanabe]

yeah, i get that but before the SDSR i was hoping we would get something like Johan de Witt it seems perfect for what we would need it for, either gathering people off boats in the middle of the ocean or acting as a Mothership in the gulf. 4 Cb-90 on Davits and 2 or 4 in the well deck would be perfect for rounding up pirates

 

[Abraham Gubler]

yeah, i get that but before the SDSR i was hoping we would get something like Johan de Witt it seems perfect for what we would need it for, either gathering people off boats in the middle of the ocean or acting as a Mothership in the gulf. 4 Cb-90 on Davits and 2 or 4 in the well deck would be perfect for rounding up pirates

But that's not a sealift ship. The Largs Bay IS the sealift ship, it is JP 2048/4C. We just got it early and cheaply. The DCP only provides a 10 year outlook so the replacement for Largs Bay won't be in it and won't be needed to be raised as a project for some time.

The sealift ship doesn't need an extensive aviation capability. A hangar would be nice but not crucial. We have gone over this topic a few times in the past few months in this thread and the marine corps one. Including links to the presento papers about this topic which provide more detail than the public DCP.

 

[Sea Toby]

The Largs Bay acquisition fills the sea lift ship role, there won't be a third new ship ordered. She has a modest helicopter facility with a tent capable of housing two medium lift helicopters, so any permanent hangar won't be fitted until after the LHDs are operational, if then...

While helicopters are important assets, its the boats that will bring ashore APCs and tanks, not the helicopters. The British had planned to use her with other ships with greater helicopter facilities, the Aussies will surely plan to use her with their new LHDs...

Her modest helicopter facilities, the tent, will be more than enough for humanitarian operations alone, and in any major assault she will be in company with at least one LHD. Frankly, I see no need to fit a permanent hangar...

 

[Systems Adict]

A number of thoughts/questions have come to mind.

...I assume, as has been mentioned, Largs Bay will receive a basic quick refit (Australian specific items, paint, minor repair, etc) before entering service, will that be in the UK or here after she arrives, and at what additional cost?

Not heard anything about a UK refit. I'd assume that the Aussies will want to do that 'in-house', so that they can have a look under the covers & see if there's anything wrong that hasn't been declared.

That brings me to my last point, major modifications, eg helicopter hanger. I had read that the Bay class had/has an option for hangar facilities, I would assume similar to her Dutch and Spanish part sisters?

I have seen pictures of what looks like a "temporary" hangar on the deck behind the bridge, have to protect helicopters from the weather, etc, if they are staying on deck for any period of time.

The Bays are BASED ON, not identical to the Galicia or Rotterdam classes, so they have facilities to refuel & berth helo's, but were never designed to have a hangar fitted. To fit one would be extremely expensive & it would be on top of the lift to the deck below (not a good idea!)

Having worked on the Bay's & seen them in-service, I have no memory of a collapsable hangar ever being fitted, although I thought that the Canadians (??), The Americans (in the past) & French have used them.

Bay Class Auxiliary Ship Alternative Landing Ship Logistic (ALSL) - Naval Technology


SA

 

[Jhom]

That brings me to my last point, major modifications, eg helicopter hanger. I had read that the Bay class had/has an option for hangar facilities, I would assume similar to her Dutch and Spanish part sisters?

Not a chance, the proper hangar of the Galicia gives capabilities that are way above of that ones of the tent, and I wouldnt say that fitting the Bay with a true hangar is a nonsense, but if all the RAN wants from this ship is to carry containers... then do nothing... but you cant compare the aviation facilities of the Galicia and the Bay-with-tent, they are on different leages...

 

[PeterM]

What does the aquisiton of Largs Bay mean for the future of Kanimbla and Tobruk?

Considering their current state, are they likely to be decommissioned once Largs Bay enters service?

Or could Manoora possibly be canabalised to keep/get Kanimbla operational?

 

[Aussie Digger]

What does the aquisiton of Largs Bay mean for the future of Kanimbla and Tobruk?

Considering their current state, are they likely to be decommissioned once Largs Bay enters service?

Or could Manoora possibly be canabalised to keep/get Kanimbla operational?

Manoora has already been retired from service. If anything it will be cannabilised to keep Kanimbla going and perhaps to help fitout Largs Bay with Australian spec systems.

Kanimbla and Tobruk are remaining in-service to their planned life of type.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Just read in the paper today that Sinkex is going ahead with the FFG Adelaide tomorrow..

Sweet, should make a really nice dive site, close to Sydney, 32 m of water just out of terrigal.

 

[StoresBasher]

Manoora has already been retired from service. If anything it will be cannabilised to keep Kanimbla going and perhaps to help fitout Largs Bay with Australian spec systems.

Kanimbla and Tobruk are remaining in-service to their planned life of type.

We have already been cannibalized by Kanimbla, FFH an FFG!
No comment on your last

 

[Milne Bay]

We have already been cannibalized by Kanimbla, FFH an FFG!
No comment on your last

I suppose all usable parts will go to good homes.
What did the FFG and FFH need from you?

Any news on the fate of HMAS Manoora?
Razor blades? Dive wreck?
Cheers
MB

 

[StoresBasher]

I suppose all usable parts will go to good homes.
What did the FFG and FFH need from you?

Any news on the fate of HMAS Manoora?
Razor blades? Dive wreck?
Cheers
MB

No comment on your first question, op security and all that.
No news yet, we still don't have an official date for decommissioning yet.

 

[gf0012-aust]

we bought largs for 100m AUD that still leaves minimum 200m for a second vessel.

the $100m does not include changes that need to be made to fit her out and integrate.

we're not just buying a ship and then slotting it straight in - its now how this works.

she has to be able to talk and fight with other assets, and the UK fitout has to be changed so that she can do this .

$100m is not the end of the bill - there will be a new bill of materials coming with her before she's even remotely ready for work up

 

[gf0012-aust]

Kanimbla and Tobruk are remaining in-service to their planned life of type.

Don't you just media liaison units....

1st half of sentence - meet last half of sentence

 

[gf0012-aust]

Just read in the paper today that Sinkex is going ahead with the FFG Adelaide tomorrow..

Sweet, should make a really nice dive site, close to Sydney, 32 m of water just out of terrigal.

Its not a SINKEX - its a HULKEX

SINKEX is when you physically destroy the vessel as part of a training exercise

HULKEX is a passive event where the vessels hull is compromised to rapidly sink her in a proscribed location, not to measure a weapons effect

they are very different events.

 

[riksavage]

the $100m does not include changes that need to be made to fit her out and integrate.

we're not just buying a ship and then slotting it straight in - its now how this works.

she has to be able to talk and fight with other assets, and the UK fitout has to be changed so that she can do this .

$100m is not the end of the bill - there will be a new bill of materials coming with her before she's even remotely ready for work up

Has the RAN determined whether they need to invest in new landing craft, or will they adapt what they already have?

Considering the varying climate/terrain across Aus, has the RAN ever tested/considered air-cushion units, not talking about the huge tank carrying versions, more small raiding types capable of being loaded/lifted aboard a Bay/Canberra?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Has the RAN determined whether they need to invest in new landing craft, or will they adapt what they already have?

Unsure as to whether bill and bens LC's will be used, but under SRP they would be scrambling to minimise the costs. The other available LC's are too fat to fit

Considering the varying climate/terrain across Aus, has the RAN ever tested/considered air-cushion units, not talking about the huge tank carrying versions, more small raiding types capable of being loaded/lifted aboard a Bay/Canberra?

I haven't seen anything in recent times for cushioned craft, although there has been the usual interest in other types of craft that friendlies have in place. I'd say its been more professional "academic" interest rather than interest with intent.

 

[riksavage]

Unsure as to whether bill and bens LC's will be used, but under SRP they would be scrambling to minimise the costs. The other available LC's are too fat to fit



I haven't seen anything in recent times for cushioned craft, although there has been the usual interest in other types of craft that friendlies have in place. I'd say its been more professional "academic" interest rather than interest with intent.

The Bays are desigend to take 2 x MK5 (15.5m long x 4.3m wide) or a single MK10.

Not sure how many MK10's the RN/RM have in stock, but it brings much to the game when combined with a Bay should numbers be downsized.

Endurance: 14 Days
Type: Ro-Ro landing craft
Displacement: 236 long tons (240*t)
Length: 97*ft*7*in (29.74*m)
Beam: 24*ft*3*in (7.39*m)
Draught: 5*ft*7*in (1.70*m)
Propulsion: 2 × diesel engines
Speed: 8.5*knots (15.7*km/h; 9.8*mph)
Capacity: 1 main battle tank, 4 large vehicles, or 120 troops

Albion, Bulwark and Ocean have thier own dedicated LC sqn's. Assuming only one active Albion Class (other held in reserve) then the need for the current number of MK10's should be reduced.

 

[swerve]

The point I was making, is that it is possible to make the modifications that I mentioned/suggested because the Bays are, for a better word, "dummed down" version of the original Dutch and subsequent Spanish designs ...

Not really a 'dumbed down' version. They've sacrificed some features (hangar, much smaller dock, less troop accommodation) in order to increase cargo capacity & cargo handling abilities. Redesigned for a different role.