Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Ironically one area where the Leo II would have been a supperior option to the Abrams is the availability of specialist versions. That said there is nothing stopping the development of the necessary vehicles based on the Abrams but time and money.
The Abrams is available in all the specialist engineering vehicles we need and the Leopard 2 isn’t. The Australian combat engineer squadron (mechanised) has eight armoured mine clearers (AMC), two armoured vehicles, specialist engineer (AVSE) and two armoured vehicle-launched bridges (AVLB) which are not extant in addition to a number of M113 type vehicles and bulldozers. For the AVLB there is the M104 Wolverine based on the M1 hull which uses the very good German Leguan bridges. A Leguan bridgelayer has been developed for the Leopard 2 but never ordered for production. The AVSE is just a normal M1 gun tank fitted with a dozer blade and the M908 HE-OR-T [High Explosive Obstacle Reduction Tank] ammunition. For the AMC the Leopard II only has plough/roller/flail pushers but the Abrams has the excellent M1ABV “Shredder” with trainable Giant Viper launchers as well as mine ploughs and rollers. It’s all there off the shelf to equip 1 CER (Mech) to full standard. Plus all of these vehicles would be extremely useful in theatre in Uruzgan right now.

Cbt Engr Sqn (Mech):

5 officers
100 OR
1 M113 ACV
10 M113 APC
3 M113 TLC/ALV
8 AMC
2 AVSE
2 AVLB
2 CET (Hvy) (D9 bulldozer)
2 Heavy Dumpster Truck
1 CPC 20 (water purifier)
3 TMML(AT) (mechanised anti tank mine planter)
4 EMCD Giant Viper (explosive mine clearer)
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Abrams is available in all the specialist engineering vehicles we need and the Leopard 2 isn’t. The Australian combat engineer squadron (mechanised) has eight armoured mine clearers (AMC), two armoured vehicles, specialist engineer (AVSE) and two armoured vehicle-launched bridges (AVLB) which are not extant in addition to a number of M113 type vehicles and bulldozers. For the AVLB there is the M104 Wolverine based on the M1 hull which uses the very good German Leguan bridges. A Leguan bridgelayer has been developed for the Leopard 2 but never ordered for production. The AVSE is just a normal M1 gun tank fitted with a dozer blade and the M908 HE-OR-T [High Explosive Obstacle Reduction Tank] ammunition. For the AMC the Leopard II only has plough/roller/flail pushers but the Abrams has the excellent M1ABV “Shredder” with trainable Giant Viper launchers as well as mine ploughs and rollers. It’s all there off the shelf to equip 1 CER (Mech) to full standard. Plus all of these vehicles would be extremely useful in theatre in Uruzgan right now.

Cbt Engr Sqn (Mech):

5 officers
100 OR
1 M113 ACV
10 M113 APC
3 M113 TLC/ALV
8 AMC
2 AVSE
2 AVLB
2 CET (Hvy) (D9 bulldozer)
2 Heavy Dumpster Truck
1 CPC 20 (water purifier)
3 TMML(AT) (mechanised anti tank mine planter)
4 EMCD Giant Viper (explosive mine clearer)
Yes totally agree armoured engineers would be very useful in Afghanistan, perhaps more so than pure tanks.

The Centurion AVRE has always been a favourite of mine and I can't help but wonder of a modern day equivalent using a short barrelled, short chamber (high angle) 155mm (capable of using a variety of standard 155mm rounds and charges) would be good value today. Such a vehicle, fitted out something along the lines TUSK, provide a higher level of support and be of greater use to deployed infantry than tanks, in particular in MOUT.

Once you have an AVRE all you really need is an AVLB an armoured load carrier and an APC as it can cover both the AVSE and AMC tasks.

What would be interesting is a “Namer” type configuration heavy APC with M1 running gear and mechanicals as a basis of a FOV of heavy engineering vehicles.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Centurion AVRE has always been a favourite of mine and I can't help but wonder of a modern day equivalent using a short barrelled, short chamber (high angle) 155mm (capable of using a variety of standard 155mm rounds and charges) would be good value today. Such a vehicle, fitted out something along the lines TUSK, provide a higher level of support and be of greater use to deployed infantry than tanks, in particular in MOUT.
Such a 155mm howitzer has little in common with a demolition gun except perhaps external appearance. The capability of the 165mm demolition gun is now provided by the 120mm HE-OR-T shell that can be fired by any standard gun tank with a suitable trained crew. The demo gun was never in a high angle mount having the same +20 degrees elevation of standard gun tanks.

A tank with main gun elevation of +20 degrees (like the M1 Abrams) means it can engage the top of a three story building (rarely over 12m above ground) at a minimum range of 33m. As long as you aren’t fighting in amongst sky scrapers this is a pretty good capability.

Further the role of the demo gun is not destruction of enemy firing positions or bunkers but rather obstacles to mobility. If you want a specialised infantry support tank then it’s not a capability the engineers provide. They have their hands full making clear routes for our forces to manoeuvre.

Once you have an AVRE all you really need is an AVLB an armoured load carrier and an APC as it can cover both the AVSE and AMC tasks.
While any suitably equipped tank can push a mine plough or roller this does not make an AMC. The M1ABV is a specialised AMC and provides several additional capabilities. This include standoff mine clearing via under armour Giant Viper (GV) launchers (which are usually towed and therefore vulnerable to suppression fires) and remote control for clearing in areas that may have overkill UBIEDs. Also by removing the main gun from the tank the M1ABV has a lot of room for carrying additional engineering equipment which is like:

What would be interesting is a “Namer” type configuration heavy APC with M1 running gear and mechanicals as a basis of a FOV of heavy engineering vehicles.
If you have the M1ABV then you have a heavy armoured vehicle able to carry lots of engineering gear like the APC. The only other vehicle in its class is the Israeli Puma when fitted with the overpressure explosive mine clearer launcher. But this system can only be fired in the direction the vehicle is pointing. While GV in the Shredder (M1ABV) can be fired by training the turret which is very useful in complex terrain so you can shoot down off axis roads and the like.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Is there any possibility that we could get some of this equipment at good deal prices with fully refurbed (zerod) units like our origonal M1's.

Its pretty unlikely we are going to enter a tank war in the region, but it is far more likely we would have to do some operations against mines, IED, etc.

I wouldn't imagine we would plan for a significant combat attrition supply, so another 50 tanks is still a pretty hefty order, given we only have 59 M1A1's at the moment.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Australian Army does have a very large attrition stock of M1s - it's called the US Army. Realistically any conflict serious enough to see attrition to the M1 fleet would see those warehoused M1s being shipped over pretty quick.

The only way I can see more M1s and M88s being bought is if the FSR dictates that the tank regiment is split up and a squadron given to each now Armoured Cavalry Regiment. To achieve that, there would probably need to be another dozen or so gun tanks bought to ensure a squadron can remain serviceable in each location. We'd also need to buy at least two more M88s as well, to ensure there are at least two in each location. Personally I think the ACR concept will never get up though.

Personally I can't see any heavy engineer vehicles based on tanks being bought for 1 CER (or, if Plan Beersheeba ever actually happens the mech sqn of each CE Regt). There's just no money. The best they can hope for is a medium weight vehicle in the same class as the Land 400 vehicles. Buying mine plows for the M1s would be a good start though.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Buying mine plows for the M1s would be a good start though.
We actually should have some in stock. In the 1990s three ploughs and three rollers were brought. I didn't notice them getting disposed alongside the Leopards and they should be useable via the M1s.

See: http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured Vehicles/leopardph_2.htm

Of course the actual combat capability of the ADF is hugely under-funded to sustain that giant defence bureaucracy. There is more than enough money to pay for a fully equipped four mechanised brigade force, even with a years worth of attrition stocks…
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
We actually should have some in stock. In the 1990s three ploughs and three rollers were brought. I didn't notice them getting disposed alongside the Leopards and they should be useable via the M1s.
The ploughs for the M1 are very different (read: better) than the ones for the Leopard though. They are particularly useful for developing battle positions and other pioneer tasks, among much else.

No argument about the cost of the bureaucracy though. Perhaps we can improvise spaced armour for the AFV fleet by strapping generals to the glacis plate.

On that note, it would be nice if some of this spare money being used to buy C-17s, amphibs (and possibly more Super Hornets apparently) was used to improve the status of the Army's AFV fleet. When the current-high readiness Cav Regt has exactly five working gun cars, and has to be issued a squadron's worth of M113s to provide at least something to train on, things aren't in great shape. We're going to have shiny new transport assets but nothing to actually transport.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The ploughs for the M1 are very different (read: better) than the ones for the Leopard though. They are particularly useful forr developing battle positions and other pioneer tasks, among much else.
Yeah full width is better than track width. But track width is better than no width.

No argument about the cost of the bureaucracy though. Perhaps we can improvise spaced armour for the AFV fleet by strapping generals to the glacis plate.
Interesting concept but at 100+ kg per square meter for single use coverage I think slat armour might still be a better option.

On that note, it would be nice if some of this spare money being used to buy C-17s, amphibs (and possibly more Super Hornets apparently) was used to improve the status of the Army's AFV fleet. When the current-high readiness Cav Regt has exactly five working gun cars, and has to be issued a squadron's worth of M113s to provide at least something to train on, things aren't in great shape. We're going to have shiny new transport assets but nothing to actually transport.
This is the SRP in action. Because Navy and Air Force programs are behind schedule they can redirect money to other uses. But the Army is spending every dollar it has on this whole war thing. But under the SRP if they want anything new they need to give up something current.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting concept but at 100+ kg per square meter for single use coverage I think slat armour might still be a better option.
I was going to make a joke about Generals not weighing 100kg because they're all full of hot air, but its been done. Ah well, there will be a new CA in a few months. Let's bring back the beret.

But the Army is spending every dollar it has on this whole war thing. But under the SRP if they want anything new they need to give up something current.
There's still plenty if money in the force protection review fund, and the entire deployed AFV fleet is being upgraded in the next few months, so its not like there is no money. The issue lies with the collective training fleet in Australia. At some point someone needs to realise that if there are no vehicles to train on in Australia, and there won't be until Land 400 rolls around, then we are accepting massive risk in the collective training of our armoured force and skill sets of our officers and NCOs. It's going to bite us big time in 5-10 years.

The sad thing is, the regiments are manned to >120% at the moment, which is only adding to the problem as the limited training opportunities have to be spread over a larger audience. There are currently newly promoted captains that have never served as a troop leader, simply because there were no troops to lead. It doesn't bode well for when these officers become OCs. About the only collective training opportunities these days are MREs and the deployments themselves. Although there always seems to be money for dog and ponies for the brass and politicians...
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Such a 155mm howitzer has little in common with a demolition gun except perhaps external appearance. The capability of the 165mm demolition gun is now provided by the 120mm HE-OR-T shell that can be fired by any standard gun tank with a suitable trained crew. The demo gun was never in a high angle mount having the same +20 degrees elevation of standard gun tanks.

A tank with main gun elevation of +20 degrees (like the M1 Abrams) means it can engage the top of a three story building (rarely over 12m above ground) at a minimum range of 33m. As long as you aren’t fighting in amongst sky scrapers this is a pretty good capability.

Further the role of the demo gun is not destruction of enemy firing positions or bunkers but rather obstacles to mobility. If you want a specialised infantry support tank then it’s not a capability the engineers provide. They have their hands full making clear routes for our forces to manoeuvre.



While any suitably equipped tank can push a mine plough or roller this does not make an AMC. The M1ABV is a specialised AMC and provides several additional capabilities. This include standoff mine clearing via under armour Giant Viper (GV) launchers (which are usually towed and therefore vulnerable to suppression fires) and remote control for clearing in areas that may have overkill UBIEDs. Also by removing the main gun from the tank the M1ABV has a lot of room for carrying additional engineering equipment which is like:



If you have the M1ABV then you have a heavy armoured vehicle able to carry lots of engineering gear like the APC. The only other vehicle in its class is the Israeli Puma when fitted with the overpressure explosive mine clearer launcher. But this system can only be fired in the direction the vehicle is pointing. While GV in the Shredder (M1ABV) can be fired by training the turret which is very useful in complex terrain so you can shoot down off axis roads and the like.
Interesting, this has me wondering if the CBT ENG SQN could be integrated into 1 Armds ORBAT. An AVSE could be added to each Troop bringing the number of gun tanks up to four but this fourth crew would be specially trained and the tank equiped for either/or the dozer blade or mine plow. A pair of AMCs would sit at each SHQ or perhaps form a CBT ENG TRP within the SQN along with an AVBL (or two) and a pair of APCs.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting, this has me wondering if the CBT ENG SQN could be integrated into 1 Armds ORBAT. An AVSE could be added to each Troop bringing the number of gun tanks up to four but this fourth crew would be specially trained and the tank equiped for either/or the dozer blade or mine plow. A pair of AMCs would sit at each SHQ or perhaps form a CBT ENG TRP within the SQN along with an AVBL (or two) and a pair of APCs.
That wouldn't be a good idea because what do RAAC officers know about engineering? The idea of the cbt engr sqn is it is attached to a battlegroup. So the three notional mechanised battlegroups of 1 Bde would each have a cbt engr sqn (mech) attached. Such a direct support arrangement brings a lot of capability to an a battlegroup. Breaking it up and attaching it to each troop of squadron is as silly as attaching a single self propelled artillery gun to each squadron. They are better kept under control of the field artillery battery and used to fire support where and when they needed. Now on the other hand we do form combat teams so a mechanised combat team with a breaching role could have a tank sqn HQ, two mech inf platoons, two tank troops and a mech cbt engr troop with attachments from the sqn HQ. This - if properly equipped - would field 8 M1 MBTs, 2 M1 AVSE, 4 M1ABV AMCs, 2 M104 AVLB, 12 M113AS4 APCs, 64 infantry dismounts, 24 sapper dismounts. This force could take down a pretty good obstacle and open a breach for the battlegroup to exploit.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well, I did have a lot of Lego as a kid...
On a more serious note, the average RAAC soldier probably has a higher than usual technical aptitude. Australian armoured vehicle crews in particular don't just drive and fight their vehicles they maintain them too and I don't doubt for a second that 1 Armd would be able to provide personnel capable of being trained to an equivalent or higher standard than any sapper.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
On a more serious note, the average RAAC soldier probably has a higher than usual technical aptitude. Australian armoured vehicle crews in particular don't just drive and fight their vehicles they maintain them too and I don't doubt for a second that 1 Armd would be able to provide personnel capable of being trained to an equivalent or higher standard than any sapper.
But seriously RAE officers are trained as engineers and usually have Bachelors of Civil Engineering. In this context engineering means military and civil engineer not mecha/electronic and so on engineering. So who should have a bunch of armoured bulldozers and demolition systems? People who know how to use them as engineering equipment or people who use them as armoured fighting vehicles. Also the RAE have their engineering system with the support squadron providing resources and engineer plant which makes it possible to really get stuff built or destroyed.

In the past the tank squadron/regiment have maintained a tank dozer/bidge layer troop to support mobility by 'improving' natural terrain and force protection by digging fighting holes and if we had the gear again it would be a good thing. But the combat engineer squadron does a lot more than just this. For example to provide the tank squadron with an AVSE means to train the tank commander in demolition of buildings and heavy obstacles. Anyone can shoot a 120mm HE-OR-T round into something in your way but it takes a lot of additional knowledge to palce the round so it demolishes the obstacle. Also in the use of the dozer blades tank dozers traditionally just know how to dig fighting holes and to cut better gradients into river beds and step faces so tanks can travese them. In a cbt engr unit the tank dozer is used for many more complex roles requiring a lot more skills from the tank crew.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
But seriously RAE officers are trained as engineers and usually have Bachelors of Civil Engineering. In this context engineering means military and civil engineer not mecha/electronic and so on engineering. So who should have a bunch of armoured bulldozers and demolition systems? People who know how to use them as engineering equipment or people who use them as armoured fighting vehicles. Also the RAE have their engineering system with the support squadron providing resources and engineer plant which makes it possible to really get stuff built or destroyed.

In the past the tank squadron/regiment have maintained a tank dozer/bidge layer troop to support mobility by 'improving' natural terrain and force protection by digging fighting holes and if we had the gear again it would be a good thing. But the combat engineer squadron does a lot more than just this. For example to provide the tank squadron with an AVSE means to train the tank commander in demolition of buildings and heavy obstacles. Anyone can shoot a 120mm HE-OR-T round into something in your way but it takes a lot of additional knowledge to palce the round so it demolishes the obstacle. Also in the use of the dozer blades tank dozers traditionally just know how to dig fighting holes and to cut better gradients into river beds and step faces so tanks can travese them. In a cbt engr unit the tank dozer is used for many more complex roles requiring a lot more skills from the tank crew.
I am not suggesting that random crews be assigned to the role, rather that selected personnel attend the appropriate training courses and are assigned to the AVSE. My thinking is that the AVSE is still basically a gun tank so would be a good fit down to troop level while the other, more specialised equipment, could be operated at Sqn or Regt level in specialist troops or Sqns. At this higher level it makes sense that they be RAE rather than RAAC in a similar manner to the RAEME detachments.

My thinking is that tanks are extremely unlikely to be deployed without engineering support so why not embed the capability permanently so the troops can train as they fight.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
My thinking is that the AVSE is still basically a gun tank so would be a good fit down to troop level while the other, more specialised equipment, could be operated at Sqn or Regt level in specialist troops or Sqns.
While mechanically an AVSE is the same as a tank dozer operationally they are very different. For one the AVSE will have much of its ammunition magazine loaded with HE-OR-T rounds. It can’t operate as a gun tank because it just won’t have the normal ammunition to sustain engagements. The HE-OR-T isn’t even a good anti field bunker round, it is specially designed to destroy very heavy steel reinforced concrete or rock blocks or walls. To place it as part of a tank troop will be a liability to the rest of the troop.

In order for the AVSE to do its job – demolish buildings and obstacles – it will need to manoeuvre to where the obstacles are. Not as part of a tank troop locate itself in overwatch or providing close support to assaulting infantry.

Also the need for AVSEs is strictly limited. By placing one in every tank troop that’s 12 AVSEs per brigade. In the cbt engr sqns there is only six AVSEs per notional full strength brigade. And even this 50% number is inflated in order to provide capability assurance by providing two per squadron. That is you always provide at least two of something because if you only had one and it broke down you would have nil capability.

12 AVSEs per brigade is overkill. Maybe you would need that number to assault the Maginot Line but there just isn’t that amount of rebar concrete out there in any feasible battlefield we will find.

I am not suggesting that random crews be assigned to the role, rather that selected personnel attend the appropriate training courses and are assigned to the AVSE.
Which is best sourced by the RAE corps where soldiers and officers are trained in military engineering through all their career.

My thinking is that tanks are extremely unlikely to be deployed without engineering support so why not embed the capability permanently so the troops can train as they fight.
Well by that argument would mean each regiment and battalion would be a full battlegroup will all the mix of units and corps integral to the unit. Army experience has shown after the A21 experiment that tried to achieve this that is actually far more difficult to train and sustain such a unit. It is more effective to have all the specialist elements within their specialist units and then mix and match them into combat teams and battlegroups for manoeuvre exercises and operational deployment. Especially since the AVSE would never really be integrated into a tank troop or even tank squadron formation in the battlefield integrating them into such a unit just makes no sense.

Also there is strong tactical experience that cbt engr sqns need more firepower to defend themselves while doing their job. The 3ID AAR from OIF called for integrating Bradleys into their combat engineers so they could use the 25mm and TOW to enhance their combat power. The HE-OR-T capability wasn’t available at this time but certainly two tanks with their sights, MGs and 20 or so 120mm MPAT rounds would go a long way towards enhancing the survivability of the rest of the cbt engr sqn on the battlefield without the need to detach tank troops of mech inf pltns to provide protection.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My thinking is that tanks are extremely unlikely to be deployed without engineering support so why not embed the capability permanently so the troops can train as they fight.
By that logic, we should incorporate infantry into the tank troop as well, to train as they fight. Or we can just combat team.

Besides, there are going to be lots and lots of times when tanks are deployed without engineer support. If we are operating in a brigade context, the engineers are likely to be held to support the main effort, not frittered away with each tank troop. If you are doing a large deliberate obstacle breach you are more likely to add tanks the engineers than the other way around. Moreover, everyone else on the battlefield will need engineer support at some point as well, so why give them only to the tanks?

Any engineer variant tanks should be operated by engineer personnel and be part of the CE Regt. We'd just have to invent a non-RAAC tank course to be run at Pucka/at the Tank Regiment. Just give the Tank Regiment a properly equipped support troop to do the minor pioneer tasks.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
wow, i hope this doesnt happen, it'll mean the SAS ad Commandos will be even more overstretched

Army may axe airborne infantry team
Not if they get pulled out of Afghanistan in 2-3 years...

Anyway, this has been on the cards for years. 3RAR has ony ever provided an airborne combat team (ie: roughly company sized) at any one particular time. Commandos could manage this, given they have to maintain parachute training capability anyway, they just don't particularly want to given how stretched they are with current ops. If current ops were to wind down however...

The basic problem with 3RAR as I understand it, is you have an entire battalion tied up supporting a company level group capability, whilst Army struggles to support it's current deployment rate. That battalion meanwhile is maintaining a capability we have never used, probably never will and costs a fortune in injuries to soldiers (broken limbs etc) and flight costs by RAAF to maintain, whilst contributing to an overall reduction in Army capability, because we aren't maintaining a proper training schedule and real warfighting capability within Army because we're struggling to meet our deployment demands and our RA is tied up supporting ops.

It's not a budget cut per se. It's an entire extra battalion Army can actually usefully employ, but at present isn't, because it's wedded to an operational concept that won't in all likelyhood ever be used...
 
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