NZDF General discussion thread

ngatimozart

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I seem to remember the deployable feild hospital was based on a expandable containerised system which was able to be transported on in service MB2228/16T trailer and took up a C130 load. I think when set up it resembled a cross(ironic) and provided a full(ish) sterile enviroment hospital facility, used to be full specs floating around somewhere. It was stored in Trentham camp and I beleive it was last operationally used in Timor 99. I wonder if the Aussie system in CHCH is a similar model.

I agree, standardised container based support functions would have been ideal in this situation and others ie exs/ops/disasters both civil and military and could be stored and rapidly deployed when required and dependant on what was needed. Everything from generators, workshops, ablutions, laundry, kitchens, water treatment even accomodation - the list is only limited by the imagination(and prob cost).

With the Cants ability to transport 33, alot of basic functions could have been up and running alot sooner after being dropped by Cant and distributed by swinglift trucks. Also alot more robust than tents and alot easier to redeploy quickly depending on manpower, facilities etc.
Up until last year I worked at the Christchurch Hospital and about twice a year a mobile surgery used to visit the hospital for a few days for restocking etc. It is a 40ft trailer which expands laterally and longitudinally (I think) hydraulically. I am not sure who owns it either the Ministry of Health of the Canterbury District Health Board. So there is at least one mobile surgery in NZ. If as RegR suggests that a mobile hospital / surgical unit is containerised yes it could be moved not only by Canty but any vessel that accepts 40ft / 20ft containers or RO/RO if boxes transported on trailers. Methinks it is time that NZDF reestablishes that capability. I also think that there will be a Royal Enquirery after Christchurch has settled down which will look at a wide variety of issues one of which will be NZDF medical facilities and abilities to respond quickly. Hopefully a recommendation will be at least one mobile hospital that is air (C130 / C17) sea and land portable.
 

gf0012-aust

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Hopefully a recommendation will be at least one mobile hospital that is air (C130 / C17) sea and land portable.
One of the very strong points of the C-17 is the medical facility modules which can be airfreighted

one of the unfortunate losses in the current support for NZ was the unavailability of Kanimbla and Manoora. Both ships have full NBC facilities and probably the most advanced shipbased surgery facilities on any vessel outside of whats found on USNS Mercy Class.

The C-17's were also factored in to be able to provide sophisticated medical facility air lift to compliment the K&M.

the scoping and requirements for this is still underway...
 

Lucasnz

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I seem to remember the deployable feild hospital was based on a expandable containerised system which was able to be transported on in service MB2228/16T trailer and took up a C130 load. I think when set up it resembled a cross(ironic) and provided a full(ish) sterile enviroment hospital facility, used to be full specs floating around somewhere. It was stored in Trentham camp and I beleive it was last operationally used in Timor 99. I wonder if the Aussie system in CHCH is a similar model.
The hospital stored at Trentham was never deployable by NZ C130 has it relied upon standard ISO containers. When East Timor occurred some the equipment in the hospital was used by the Forward Surgical Unit that was deployable.

Has to the current state of the FSU I would suggest it being restructured based on this comment (See Here):

2HSB (NZ) is also developing a role 2 light manoeuvre (surgical) capability, based on the current Forward Surgical Team (FST) that was deployed to East Timor in the early stages of the GYRO deployment. The NZDF ensures that further levels of health support are provided to deployed NZDF personnel through the use of coalition resources such as the role three field hospitals in Afghanistan or through civilian contracted providers such as ASPEN in Timor Leste and the Solomon Islands.
As for the field hospital, the last time I was in Wellington I took a trip past Trentham about 2 years ago saw a couple of containers with the Red Cross on the them out the back. I was wondering whether the FSU was deployed given the arrival of a field hospital from Australia during the earthquake.

The auditor general has a report on Health Support in East Timor that is interesting reading which covers the FSU etc..
 
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ngatimozart

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On the Defense News website (4/3/2011) I see that the RAF are looking at disposing of 8+ of it's Hawk T2 Trainers (U.K. May Slash Hawk Advanced Trainers By One-Third - Defense News) Judging from the item I think they are zero timed and the version with the glass cockpit. If NZG was serious about getting back into jet training ten this maybe an option for the RNZAF. Already existing aircraft, zero timed and possibly a good price given that the poms are trying to budget cut big time.
 

Hoffy

Member
On the Defense News website (4/3/2011) I see that the RAF are looking at disposing of 8+ of it's Hawk T2 Trainers (U.K. May Slash Hawk Advanced Trainers By One-Third - Defense News) Judging from the item I think they are zero timed and the version with the glass cockpit. If NZG was serious about getting back into jet training ten this maybe an option for the RNZAF. Already existing aircraft, zero timed and possibly a good price given that the poms are trying to budget cut big time.
I really think this is a great oportunity - but with NZ currently struggling under the weight of the Christchurch disaster & the associated costs there is zero possibility of increased (or for that matter any) spending on what may appear as non essential projects. This would be viewed as such.
Probably will need at least 5 years or so.
 

Lucasnz

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I really think this is a great oportunity - but with NZ currently struggling under the weight of the Christchurch disaster & the associated costs there is zero possibility of increased (or for that matter any) spending on what may appear as non essential projects. This would be viewed as such.
Probably will need at least 5 years or so.
I don't think anyone would disagree about the need to rebuild Christchurch being a priority, however Government must balance the competing needs across all departments. There are clear operational needs in relation to low level high speed training that the King Airs are not able to provide. Replacing the King Airs is a short term priority identified in the Defence White Paper for that reason. The only issue about acquiring ex RAF Hawks is whether the up front costs will be cheaper than the turbo prop alternatives.

While were at it why not take some of the 174 Pilots being made redundant to fill an RNZAF shortfall.
 

ngatimozart

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The new NZ Governor General has been announced. Jerry Mateparae named as new Governor-General | Stuff.co.nz He is Lieutenant General (Retd) Jerry Mateparae (NZ Army) ex CDF NZDF now head of GCSB (Government Communications Security Bureau). An interesting appointment. This is not political because the post of Governor General has to be a consensus across the political spectrum and is subject to approval by the Queen. In NZ the Armed Forces swear allegiance to the Monarch, not the crown nor any government. It is very specific.
 
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MrConservative

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The new NZ Governor General has been announced. Jerry Mateparae named as new Governor-General | Stuff.co.nz He is Lieutenant General (Retd) Jerry Mateparae (NZ Army) ex CDF NZDF now head of GCSB (Government Communications Security Bureau). An interesting appointment. This is not political because the post of Governor General has to be a consensus across the political spectrum and is subject to approval by the Queen. In NZ the Armed Forces swear allegiance to the Monarch, not the crown nor any government. It is very specific.
This has been on the cards for sometime and is pleasing news. Polling had him as a front runner along with former All Black Captain Wilson Whineray. Only a few weeks into the GCSB job and now the GG and Commander in Chief. It has been 60 years since the last Kiwi General was given the GG role - Lord Freyberg. A great choice!
 

ngatimozart

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This has been on the cards for sometime and is pleasing news. Polling had him as a front runner along with former All Black Captain Wilson Whineray. Only a few weeks into the GCSB job and now the GG and Commander in Chief. It has been 60 years since the last Kiwi General was given the GG role - Lord Freyberg. A great choice!
True. The main difference between the two, apart from the gongs, is that Tiny Freyberg had 40,000 thieves. Todays NZDF doesn't rate that strength. No he will do a really good job and do the country proud.
 
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Rob c

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I don't think anyone would disagree about the need to rebuild Christchurch being a priority, however Government must balance the competing needs across all departments. There are clear operational needs in relation to low level high speed training that the King Airs are not able to provide. Replacing the King Airs is a short term priority identified in the Defence White Paper for that reason. The only issue about acquiring ex RAF Hawks is whether the up front costs will be cheaper than the turbo prop alternatives.

While were at it why not take some of the 174 Pilots being made redundant to fill an RNZAF shortfall.
I think what the Air force had in mind is an aircraft to fit between the Airtrainers and the King Air's replacement. The King Air replacement is also to fill the close in surveillance role so will probably be a more competent aircraft.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I think what the Air force had in mind is an aircraft to fit between the Airtrainers and the King Air's replacement. The King Air replacement is also to fill the close in surveillance role so will probably be a more competent aircraft.
Yep, could be types either side of the King Air.

The type(s) could also be leased or the support or even the training role simply outsourced to another provider.

If I have my thinking cap on right, this may be one of the first practical examples of the new Govt's thinking on defence directions (I'm excluding the base and personnel rationalisations in the DWP of course).

If I also have my thinking cap on right, whilst the RNZAF will get better 'capabilities' than previously, as an institution it may still get another big political shake-up (following on the previous Govt's change in direction political shake-up), all the while whilst the organisation as a whole is exteremely busy carrying out its operational and support functions within NZ and for those deployed overseas so I hope morale doesn't suffer.

(Perhaps some shiny 'new' leased Hawk T2's to join up with the RAAF Hawk 127's training programme may be the morale circuit-breaker (seeing the Macchi's will cost more to reactivate and even then there are deficiencies in its usefulness for whole-of-NZDF training i.e. lack of sensors etc), but I suspect that's just too bold for the Govt to even think about - hope I'm proven wrong) :D
 

Rob c

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Yep, could be types either side of the King Air.

The type(s) could also be leased or the support or even the training role simply outsourced to another provider.

If I have my thinking cap on right, this may be one of the first practical examples of the new Govt's thinking on defence directions (I'm excluding the base and personnel rationalisations in the DWP of course).

If I also have my thinking cap on right, whilst the RNZAF will get better 'capabilities' than previously, as an institution it may still get another big political shake-up (following on the previous Govt's change in direction political shake-up), all the while whilst the organisation as a whole is exteremely busy carrying out its operational and support functions within NZ and for those deployed overseas so I hope morale doesn't suffer.

(Perhaps some shiny 'new' leased Hawk T2's to join up with the RAAF Hawk 127's training programme may be the morale circuit-breaker (seeing the Macchi's will cost more to reactivate and even then there are deficiencies in its usefulness for whole-of-NZDF training i.e. lack of sensors etc), but I suspect that's just too bold for the Govt to even think about - hope I'm proven wrong) :D
I suspect that the the base rationalisation may turn out the same as the Ohakea / Whenuapai deal which turned out to be too expensive to justify.There is also the clash of cultures, as the army has a significantly different culture to the airforce. I agree that the chances of the Government going for Hawks in any shape or form are very slim.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I agree that the chances of the Government going for Hawks in any shape or form are very slim.
A shame really, when such rare opportunities present themselves. Eg a lease from the UK Gov and support from Hawker Pacific would realise relatively cheap budget considerations (eg no capital charge, depreciation, reduced training and support overheads).

Mind you even if NZG were interested, unless NZ were to operate them independently (ie from the RAAF training schools), where would they lead to as LIFT a/c? On the other hand could they be easily assimilated into the RAAF (for joint training) when presumably they have a different avionics fit-out (with the Hawk 127's mimicking the F/A-18) and if memory serves correctly a different engine?
 

ngatimozart

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The RNZN is not going to be sent off to chase Somali pirates in the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean because of commitments within NZ and our region. As much as Jolly Jack Tar would like to go and chase pirates, that being a very traditional occupation of Jack Tar for many centuries, I think with a two frigate navy and crewing issues that seem to plague the RNZN for the last 20 or so years, the Ministers decision is a wise one for the time being.
Mapp: No NZ ships to chase pirates | Stuff.co.nz

Another announcement that was made today that will have an impact upon NZDF is the Minister of Finances announcement that the provisional cost of both Christchurch earthquakes to NZG is in the region of NZ$10 Billion and will be funded by increasing government borrowing.

Mr English also warned government debt was also likely to peak at a higher level than previously forecasts, possibly as high as 30 per cent of gross domestic product by the middle of 2014, up from the 28 per cent it previously predicted.

This needed to be brought down so that New Zealand could cope for future economic downturns.

"It's important that we get net Crown debt back to pre-earthquake levels so we can absorb future economic shocks when they come along - as they surely will," he said.

"So over the next few years - and for all the reasons we have outlined over the past year - we are not keen to increase debt more than we need to. It will require some careful decisions about where we prioritise spending, which we will do in a considered and balanced way." Quake to keep New Zealand in debt - English | Stuff.co.nz
So it will be interesting to see in the May budget exactly what impacts this will have upon Vote: Defence. From that budget we will be able to determine exactly how serious the current government is about defence.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
So it will be interesting to see in the May budget exactly what impacts this will have upon Vote: Defence. From that budget we will be able to determine exactly how serious the current government is about defence.
I believe the Minister of Finance this morning has said Govt will have to increase borrowing (up 50%) to cover for the economic impacts of the Chch and Japan earthquakes. Hence perhaps it's business as usual for defence, like any other Govt department, backed up previously by DWP&VfM which had already signalled austere measures to ensure projects could be funded at the higher end rather than cheaper end etc. In times like this when/if opponents suggest more defence cuts (Labour for example a la ANZAC weapon/sensor upgrade), defence supporters/Govt can point out DWP/VfM is already delivering savings and that defence is being fiscally responsible in the economic environment. Contrast that to other Govt departments whom haven't yet had the same level of micro-inspection. ;)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I believe the Minister of Finance this morning has said Govt will have to increase borrowing (up 50%) to cover for the economic impacts of the Chch and Japan earthquakes. Hence perhaps it's business as usual for defence, like any other Govt department, backed up previously by DWP&VfM which had already signalled austere measures to ensure projects could be funded at the higher end rather than cheaper end etc. In times like this when/if opponents suggest more defence cuts (Labour for example a la ANZAC weapon/sensor upgrade), defence supporters/Govt can point out DWP/VfM is already delivering savings and that defence is being fiscally responsible in the economic environment. Contrast that to other Govt departments whom haven't yet had the same level of micro-inspection. ;)
Not to mention that it would (potentially) give NZDF supporters the opportunity to ask questions like, "Oh, would you like to retire the worn out Hercules without replacing them to save money? After they proved so useful supporting the Canterbury quake response?" And then let the advocates of cutting defence respond to that...

-Cheers
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
The RNZN is not going to be sent off to chase Somali pirates in the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean because of commitments within NZ and our region. As much as Jolly Jack Tar would like to go and chase pirates, that being a very traditional occupation of Jack Tar for many centuries, I think with a two frigate navy and crewing issues that seem to plague the RNZN for the last 20 or so years, the Ministers decision is a wise one for the time being.
Mapp: No NZ ships to chase pirates | Stuff.co.nz

.....
I may put the cat amongst the pigeons here!?!

Mapp is quoted as saying "We have decided to defer any contribution until next year'' - hopefully this suggests it will happen then. Look we can't keep using excuses, we need to find a way to make this happen. If we can't step up to relatively benign UN requests - we really will be tagged as unreliable - with good reason.

Now don't think for a second I am denigrating the excellent NZDF effort in Chch - it is the number 1 priority & that role should always be. But what I am saying is this time next year we must say enough is enough - we need to make it happen, ensure we get a frigate over there (unless another Chch scenario unfolds), and then start making regular contributions.

"..a two frigate navy and crewing issues that seem to plague the RNZN for the last 20 or so years..." is something that's here to stay & is the cloth that the Govt has cut the RNZN. Yeah sure use that as an excuse for skipping diplomatic vists (that can be done other ways), but preferably not exercises, and definitely not operational requests.

The RNZN would gain massive expereince by being involved in these patrols - working with foreign navies & the credibility (diplomatic) pay-off would be huge.
 

MrConservative

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Hopefully the NZ Govt realises that by turning down the Frigate request it will potentially weaken its support from some countries in respect to its ambition/lobbying to gain an UNSC seat when the next vote rotation is up. That has been a major policy objective of the Govt.

This though is an opportunity to pressure the next DefMin per long term NZDF needs. The current situation proves that just two frigates are not credible.

There does need to be a separation or ring-fencing between baseline defence, security, trade and diplomatic objectives and there funding - with developing issues around the CHCH aftermath and domestic policy issues including the short term economic outlook. Defence needs cannot be stripped any further - in fact over the last year the NZDF has really proved its worth to the point whereby we may be even at the tipping point in regards to the public not wanting Defence to be stripped back and getting equipment it needs.
 

mattyem

New Member
The RNZN would gain massive expereince by being involved in these patrols - working with foreign navies & the credibility (diplomatic) pay-off would be huge.
I think the emphasis would be more one operational experience. There are many Exercises we are involved with every year in which we work with Foreign navies especially the 3 Bersama exercises every year in the south china sea. and the southern cross ex in New Cali bi-annually. In saying that, we have sent a frigate on several occasion to the gulf so we aren't losing out too much on an operational level.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Secret shipment of LAVs follows Kiwi soldier's death in Afghanistan
by Vernon Small

Last updated 08:27 15/04/2011

Kiwi troops were supposed to be among the first foreign forces to withdraw from Afghanistan, but instead of winding down, numbers have been boosted and armoured vehicles sent to beef up firepower and defences.

The extreme secrecy that surrounded the airlift of five light armoured vehicles (LAVs) to Bamiyan province has highlighted the extreme danger that the 140-strong provincial reconstruction team (PRT) faces from insurgent attacks and natural hazards.

For nearly a decade now, the PRT has been patrolling the steep hills and rugged plains of Bamiyan as part of an international effort to rebuild Afghanistan after more than 30 years of conflict and civil war.

Although significant progress has been made in areas including constructing roads and electricity networks, schools, hospitals and the other building blocks of a normal, stable society, the risk of ambushes and roadside bombings remains frighteningly high.

In February, Defence Minister Wayne Mapp said that fear was a daily reality for the soldiers, along with the risk of death or injury from natural hazards.

The death of Lieutenant Tim O'Donnell in a roadside attack last year is understood to have heightened concerns that the Kiwi troops needed more firepower and defences in the face of persistent insurgency in the northeast of the province, where the Taleban has always found more sympathy among the locals.

The army quietly added extra infantry to the PRT, boosting the contingent from about 100 to almost the 140 cap imposed by the Government.

About the same time, a decision was taken to ship five LAVs with crews to Bamiyan, along with three more LAVs, which have been assigned to the Special Air Service unit in Kabul, which has been downsized.

The Defence Force's reaction when Fairfax Media started asking why the Government had indemnified Qantas for a 747 to fly freight internationally underscored the deep concerns about the continuing reach and power of the insurgency.

Fairfax agreed to not report on the shipment until the LAVs were in Bamiyan after the Defence Force said it feared the convoy could be ambushed and soldiers' lives put at risk on the road from Bagram airbase if news leaked out beforehand.

The northeast is seen as the most dangerous part of the province, although Joint Forces Commander Air Vice Marshal Peter Stockwell said the LAVs could also be used elsewhere.

They were sent to coincide with the next rotation of troops and all eight have been upgraded at a cost of $3.8 million to provide extra armour and roof-hung seats to protect passengers against mines and roadside bombs.

Although the LAVs will provide extra protection from attacks, the deployment appears to be just as much aimed at giving the PRT the ability to hit back at insurgents with more firepower than they have now.

The LAVs have good optical systems, especially at night, and a 25-millimetre gun.

Air Vice Marshal Stockwell said the decision to send them was partly a response to the death of Lieutenant O'Donnell. But he said the bomb that killed Lieutenant O'Donnell, who was in a Humvee, would have done considerable damage to a LAV, and he could not say for sure whether the young officer would have survived the blast had he been in one. "I'd hate to make a call on that. It would be pure speculation."

No vehicle would provide 100 per cent protection, he said.

However the patrol would have been better placed to fight off the follow-up attack, which involved rocket-propelled grenades and small-arms fire.

Air Vice Marshal Stockwell said the LAVs' extra armour could also provide greater protection than a Humvee in accidents on the difficult roads - a danger highlighted by the death of Private Kirifi Mila in a road accident in February.

DR MAPP said the main reason for flying the LAVs to Afghanistan was the protection of soldiers, although it was an operational decision for the military to make.

He said the intention was still to withdraw New Zealand's provincial reconstruction team by 2014, although it would not be "a sharp process", with 3 1/2 years to run.

"We have to protect our people in the meantime. The LAVs are significantly safer, particularly with the new seating arrangement.

"With the increased severity of the attacks, we were starting to increasingly ask, 'Is the Humvee the right vehicle?' "

Modifications meant the LAVs' seats were "top hung" and passengers did not touch the floor, giving them added protection from mines and roadside bombs.

He said Afghan President Hamid Karzai's call for Nato and United States- led PRTs to wrap up and leave the war- torn country was not aimed at New Zealand.

The PRT has been operating in Bamiyan since 2003, meaning it will have been in place for more than a decade by the time it is eventually withdrawn. It is easily New Zealand's most significant and dangerous overseas deployment since Vietnam and will have lasted almost twice as long as World War II.

Sixty troops - part of the next rotation of New Zealand forces - left for Afghanistan on Tuesday and 60 more will leave next week.

- The Dominion Post

Secret shipment of LAVs follows Kiwi soldier's death... | Stuff.co.nz
NZ troops get secret airlift of armoured cars | Stuff.co.nz
Good. Although I'm not naive to think the LAVIII will be an answer to all the situations the NZDF will face over there, at least NZDF now has additional firepower and the extra capabilities the LAVIII will provide eg optical sights etc. Interesting to see Qantas 747 freighter's took them over - I have wondered whether civilian 747's could provide LAVIII airlift so it's also good to see this aspect confirmed. I wonder whether mod'ed 747's could be a good fit for the RNZAF to replace the 757 combi's? Granted the 747 would never go into hostile territory due to their lack of countermeasures etc, which is the domain of the C-17 and C-130 etc. I'm also glad some of us have been proven right that the NZDF is not cutting and running from A'Stan as alledged by others in the past :)
 
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