The Mechem NTW 20mm anti-material rifle

[STURM]

Would be very interested in hearing any opinions on the usefulness of the Mechem NTW 20mm anti-material rifle.

http://izhevsk.club.guns.ru/eng/ntw20.html

To me at least, the only advantages the NTW might offer over 12.7mm anti-material rifles like the Barrett, would be the greater range and penetrating capability offered by the 20mm round [the NTW can also fire 14.5mm], which however comes at a price, namely the size and weight of the NTW. An interesting possibilty would be to use the NTW against low flying, hovering helicopters, for which something more than the basic bipod will be needed. Apart from the SADF which has purchased the NTW and the Malaysian army which recently displayed the NTW at an exhibition, I'm not aware of any other buyers for the NTW.

 

[SASWanabe]

Would be very interested in hearing any opinions on the usefulness of the Mechem NTW 20mm anti-material rifle.

NTW-20 ANTI-MATERIEL RIFLE

To me at least, the only advantages the NTW might offer over 12.7mm anti-material rifles like the Barrett, would be the greater range and penetrating capability offered by the 20mm round [the NTW can also fire 14.5mm], which however comes at a price, namely the size and weight of the NTW. An interesting possibilty would be to use the NTW against low flying, hovering helicopters, for which something more than the basic bipod will be needed. Apart from the SADF which has purchased the NTW and the Malaysian army which recently displayed the NTW at an exhibition, I'm not aware of any other buyers for the NTW.

from what i understand it doesnt offer much over a 12.7 especially past 1500m. needs a larger cartridge if you ask me.

 

[STURM]

The only advantages I can think of is the greater range and penerating performance offered by 20mm rounds. I would think that the NTW could be used with devastating effect against slow moving or hovering helicopters but the problem here is it only comes with a bipod.

Do you know if the Kiwi or Aussie armies use anti-material rifles?

 

[SASWanabe]

The only advantages I can think of is the greater range and penerating performance offered by 20mm rounds. I would think that the NTW could be used with devastating effect against slow moving or hovering helicopters but the problem here is it only comes with a bipod.

Do you know if the Kiwi or Aussie armies use anti-material rifles?

Aus uses the AW-50F and i have heard some rumors about the SAS and Commandos borrowing US M107s in Afghanistan.

Kiwi's, im not aware of them having any. but it would suprise me if they didnt.

if your going for longer range armor penetration (800m+) a 50bmg API offers better balistics than a 20mm so does a 14.5R round.

if you want a good 20mm round id look at 20 mm x 138 mm B, its fallen out of use but to me it would be the best anti-material round available for a rifle.

and i think its also worth noting once the bore goes past 15mm its technicaly a cannon.

 

[sgtgunn]

The only advantages I can think of is the greater range and penerating performance offered by 20mm rounds. I would think that the NTW could be used with devastating effect against slow moving or hovering helicopters but the problem here is it only comes with a bipod.

Do you know if the Kiwi or Aussie armies use anti-material rifles?

I'm having trouble visualizing what practical use this thing would be.

At 26kg empty and an LOA of 1,795mm the thing is a monster. the 14.5mm verision is worse at 29kg and 2,015mm LOA.

As a quick comparison a .50 BMG Barrett M107A1 is only 14kg and has an LOA of 1,450mm - and that's till a big ass gun.

If I was a SOF operator, I would NOT want to try lugging a 26kg, 1.7m long rifle around.

From what I can dig up, the 20 x 82mm SAPHEI round only penetrates 15mm of steel. The NTW-20 is listed with an effective range of ">1,500m"... that's kind of vague since it doesn't say how much greater than 1,500m.

A .50 API round will penetrate ~25mm of RHA at 200m, ~18mm @ 600m and ~ 8mm at 1500m. The M107A1 has an effective range of ~1,800mm and has a >3 MOA accuracy. Plus it's a semi-auto with a 10 round detachable box maagzine. The NTW-20 is a 3 shot, bolt action.

I can't really picture a scenario where I'd want a NTW-20 over a M107A1 (or similar .50 BMG rifle). It's to big and heavy to be man portable over any distance, and if I have a vehicle to move it, and I want something more powerful than a .50, I'll take a Mk19 or a Javelin or something - not a bolt action 20mm cannon!

Adrian

 

[IronsightSniper]

Lets all wait until some nut fancies from the South feel the need to over-compensate themselves and build a 25 mm sniper rifle that can fire M919s so then our SOF operators can FUBAR up some bigger trucks and longer ranges.

But no really, 12.7 and 14.5 mm are the biggest calibers you really need. The former is more popular and more practical.

 

[DavidDCM]

Agree on the limited tactical value I can imagine for such a cumbersome bulk of metal. But as you asked for other users, the Indonesian Marines' amphibious reccon elements (Yontaifib) also employ the NTW-20.

 

[STURM]

Unfortunatly the Malaysians soldiers at the stand where the NTW-20 was displayed could not say much about the rifle, as they were not snipers or operators of the rifle, beyond that it was recently delivered [there was also an AWM and 2 Barretts on display, one of which was fitted with a sound suppressor]. One of the friendliest guys at the 3 day exhibition held over the weekend was a Malay Regiment GPMG gunner who was only too happy to let members of the public play with his toy .

Do we have any South Africans here who have served or are serving in their army? There must be a perfectly good reason why the South African army and others would want the NTW-20 despite it's drawbacks. Thanks David, it's interesting to know that the Korps Marinir also has the NTW-20.

 

[Ananda]

Agree on the limited tactical value I can imagine for such a cumbersome bulk of metal. But as you asked for other users, the Indonesian Marines' amphibious reccon elements (Yontaifib) also employ the NTW-20.

Yes, the Indonesian Marines has small number of NTW-20. However from I gather here, they mostly being used with 14.5 mm. I don't think they will get another NTW-20 though. With Pindad already come up with 12.5 mm Anti-material gun SPR-2, and with increasing pressure for the Armed forces to buy local products as much as possible, the 12.5 mm will be standard for anti-material guns with Indonesian armed forces.

Why they buy 14.5 mm/20 mm anti-material snipers gun ?? Well according to Kor-Marinir sources since they've to guard beach head..they need something longger range than 12.5 mm. Kind a weak arguments I said...but hey this's Indonesia..not all defense procurement based on sound logical thing (especialy pre 2004 when NTW-20 procurement occured)

 

[winnyfield]

Aus uses the AW-50F and i have heard some rumors about the SAS and Commandos borrowing US M107s in Afghanistan.

Can't recall where I saw it but there's def a picture of a Australian special op guy with a M107 in Afghanistan.

 

[SASWanabe]

Yes, the Indonesian Marines has small number of NTW-20. However from I gather here, they mostly being used with 14.5 mm. I don't think they will get another NTW-20 though. With Pindad already come up with 12.5 mm Anti-material gun SPR-2, and with increasing pressure for the Armed forces to buy local products as much as possible, the 12.5 mm will be standard for anti-material guns with Indonesian armed forces.

Why they buy 14.5 mm/20 mm anti-material snipers gun ?? Well according to Kor-Marinir sources since they've to guard beach head..they need something longger range than 12.5 mm. Kind a weak arguments I said...but hey this's Indonesia..not all defense procurement based on sound logical thing (especialy pre 2004 when NTW-20 procurement occured)

14.5 is a tad more accurate than 12.5 (think you mean 12.7 here), both 12.7X108 and 12.7x99 but not much more accurate than a 50bmg with a super low drag projectile.


the thing about 14.5 and 20mm is the Cartridges are HUGE and as such the rifles are HUGE

13kg for AW50F (50bmg)
16kg for Zastava M93 (12.7x108)
33kg for NTW-20 (14.5x114)
30kg for NTW-20 (20x83)

so your looking alot heavier than a 50mg rifle, i know which one i would rather carry arround. thats without going into how much heavier the ammo itself is

 

[Ananda]

14.5 is a tad more accurate than 12.5 (think you mean 12.7 here), both 12.7X108 and 12.7x99 but not much more accurate than a 50bmg with a super low drag projectile.


the thing about 14.5 and 20mm is the Cartridges are HUGE and as such the rifles are HUGE

13kg for AW50F (50bmg)
16kg for Zastava M93 (12.7x108)
33kg for NTW-20 (14.5x114)
30kg for NTW-20 (20x83)

so your looking alot heavier than a 50mg rifle, i know which one i would rather carry arround. thats without going into how much heavier the ammo itself is

Thanks for the explenation. Yes I mean 12.7 mm. The anti material gun fr Pindad uses Magazines, thus can be save to say it's not a singgle bolt gun. You're right the NTW-20 is a heavy gun (both the gun and the cartridge/ammo). Fr it's surprising the Indonesian Marines Commando (Yontaifib) choose that. Seems they're going to use them from fixed possitions.

 

[SASWanabe]

All of the rifles i listed are Bolt Action Repeaters like the SPR-2

The NTW in both calibers i listed is a Bolt Action Repeater in 20x110 its a single shot.

the AW-50F and Zastava have 5 round mags, NTW has 3 round. from the looks of it the SPR-2 has a 5 round mag.

 

[sgtgunn]

Thanks for the explenation. Yes I mean 12.7 mm. The anti material gun fr Pindad uses Magazines, thus can be save to say it's not a singgle bolt gun. You're right the NTW-20 is a heavy gun (both the gun and the cartridge/ammo). Fr it's surprising the Indonesian Marines Commando (Yontaifib) choose that. Seems they're going to use them from fixed possitions.

Any idea what the Indonesian Marines envision their role being? if they're going: to be used from fixed positions, I'm guessing it's somehow defensive - but a bolt-action 20mm gun like the NTW-20 doesn't seem practical in that role - why not use a 12.7mm or even 14.5mm HMG instead? Or if you're seriously trying to destroy small craft/landing craft ATGMs or RR seem like a better choice.I could see a role for a heavy anti-material rifle in marine law enforcement where the goal was to disable a boat's engine with a few well placed shots, but then the 20mm SAPHEI rounds in the NTW-20 might be overkill - if you want to disable a boat to board it, you probably don't want to set it on fire.... :sniper

Adrian

 

[OPSSG]

...if they're going: to be used from fixed positions, I'm guessing it's somehow defensive - but a bolt-action 20mm gun like the NTW-20 doesn't seem practical in that role...

Adrian, not everything in fine in Disney World (aka between members of ASEAN) and confidence building measures (CBM) between members of our armed forces are needed - at times. It's a strange idea but we in ASEAN actually have 'military' diplomacy and the annual ASEAN Rifles meets is one such CBM opportunity.

The annual ASEAN Chiefs of Army Multilateral Meeting occurs on the sidelines of these CBMs, staged as events. There's often attempts to settle things behind closed doors. A better known incident is that of the 2005 naval stand-off between Indonesia and Malaysia but there are other incidents.

I understand that there are incidents of stare downs between forces (often not dressed as army or marines) at some locations (that recur again and again because of disputed border areas). The Malaysians bought theirs for 2 specific purposes and the reasons for their purchase was not directed at the Indonesians. The Indonesians bought theirs for a separate reason. In theory, our armies are not supposed to shoot at each other, because of the ASEAN Treaty of Amity and Friendship. If I'm not wrong, some of the reasons involve non-tactical considerations (including denial-ability).

Cheers

 

[sgtgunn]

Adrian, not everything in fine in Disney World (aka between members of ASEAN) and confidence building measures (CBM) between members of our armed forces are needed - at times. It's a strange idea but we in ASEAN actually have 'military' diplomacy and the annual ASEAN Rifles meets is one such CBM opportunity.

The annual ASEAN Chiefs of Army Multilateral Meeting occurs on the sidelines of these CBMs, staged as events. There's often attempts to settle things behind closed doors. A better known incident is that of the 2005 naval stand-off between Indonesia and Malaysia but there are other incidents.

I understand that there are incidents of stare downs between forces (often not dressed as army or marines) at some locations (that recur again and again because of disputed border areas). The Malaysians bought theirs for 2 specific purposes and the reasons for their purchase was not directed at the Indonesians. The Indonesians bought theirs for a separate reason. In theory, our armies are not supposed to shoot at each other, because of the ASEAN Treaty of Amity and Friendship. If I'm not wrong, some of the reasons involve non-tactical considerations (including denial-ability).

Cheers

So a weapon to put a hole in your neighbors boat when it "wanders" to close to show you mean business without actually doing so much damage you start a war?

Adrian

 

[OPSSG]

So a weapon to put a hole in your neighbors boat when it "wanders" to close to show you mean business without actually doing so much damage you start a war?

Adrian

Without going into specifics, something like that (because of the distances involved and because some of the targets are not boats). I believe these weapons are acquired as part of the range of 'escalation' options available to each country that have them.

 

[SASWanabe]

Can't recall where I saw it but there's def a picture of a Australian special op guy with a M107 in Afghanistan.

i cant remember where i saw the one i did, but i just found this one. its a bad angle but looks like a semi-auto to me

http://www.defence.gov.au/op/afghanistan/gallery/2010/20101105/20101018adf8262658_008.jpg

 

[winnyfield]

US SOCOM evaluation of 20mm vs .50 anti-material rifles. Trials with NTW-20

[ame="http://www.scribd.com/doc/24854192/New-Small-Arms-Ammunition-2009-4-Sniper-Rifle-Designs"]New Small Arms Ammunition 2009-4 Sniper Rifle Designs[/ame]

 

[Twinblade]

Would be very interested in hearing any opinions on the usefulness of the Mechem NTW 20mm anti-material rifle.

NTW-20 ANTI-MATERIEL RIFLE

To me at least, the only advantages the NTW might offer over 12.7mm anti-material rifles like the Barrett, would be the greater range and penetrating capability offered by the 20mm round [the NTW can also fire 14.5mm], which however comes at a price, namely the size and weight of the NTW. An interesting possibilty would be to use the NTW against low flying, hovering helicopters, for which something more than the basic bipod will be needed. Apart from the SADF which has purchased the NTW and the Malaysian army which recently displayed the NTW at an exhibition, I'm not aware of any other buyers for the NTW.

Indian have adapted/reverse-engineered/copied this gun after Denel was blacklisted and named it Vidhwansak AMR. Over 100 have been ordered by the Border Security Force.