Questions about Submarine abilities

[Spetsznaz]

I have never posted in the Navy & Maritime thread, because I honestly know very little about these military branches, so I just have a few amateur questions involving submarines, hopefully you guys can answer these for me.

Again sorry if these are really stupid, but I honestly don't know anything about warship/Submarines.

1) Can Submarines launch fixed wing aircraft, or helicopters or UAV's and is there a potential future for submarine launched aircraft? Sort of a underwater carrier?

2) Can Submarines launch SAM's and have the ability to look from below the water, into the air (radar that can penetrate water?)? Could there be a future to this? Could a submarine come out of the water/ocean and then launch SAM's. Are any nations working on this?

3) Could a submarine be capable of acting as a "hidden" naval SAM site?

These are all the questions, I might have more.

Again please be patient with me, as I know very little with Navy & Maritime stuff.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I have never posted in the Navy & Maritime thread, because I honestly know very little about these military branches, so I just have a few amateur questions involving submarines, hopefully you guys can answer these for me.

Again sorry if these are really stupid, but I honestly don't know anything about warship/Submarines.

1) Can Submarines launch fixed wing aircraft, or helicopters or UAV's and is there a potential future for submarine launched aircraft? Sort of a underwater carrier?

2) Can Submarines launch SAM's and have the ability to look from below the water, into the air (radar that can penetrate water?)? Could there be a future to this? Could a submarine come out of the water/ocean and then launch SAM's. Are any nations working on this?

3) Could a submarine be capable of acting as a "hidden" naval SAM site?

These are all the questions, I might have more.

Again please be patient with me, as I know very little with Navy & Maritime stuff.

yes to all 3

caveats
1) - not an aircraft carrier, though
2) - yes, but not using "radar"
3) - its a one time benefit in a conflict and has too many constraints to be useful as a formal solution

 

[STURM]

There were reports in the 80's, not confirmed of course, that Israeli subs had Blowpipe missiles. It was also intended for the tube launched Polyphem, had it entered service, to be able to be used against sub hunting helicopters.

 

[Kilo 2-3]

The idea of a sub-launched AIM-9X was considered as a means of giving the US Navy's sub fleet a way of countering ASW aircraft and helos. There were a couple of tests as a proof-of concept, but I don't think the system was ever adopted.

And even if it does work, I'm not sure the benefits of having it outweigh the drawbacks. Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should or will.

Raytheon Demonstrating Submarine Launched AIM-9X
Underwater AIM-9X

 

[Falstaff]

There were reports in the 80's, not confirmed of course, that Israeli subs had Blowpipe missiles. It was also intended for the tube launched Polyphem, had it entered service, to be able to be used against sub hunting helicopters.

You might want to check out IDAS, which is a sub-launched missile to be used against air and surface threats. It incorporates some technologies from Polyphem and is well on track in terms of development. And I think it will be adopted by the German navy once it is fully developed.

 

[Padfoot]

3) Could a submarine be capable of acting as a "hidden" naval SAM site?

I'm pretty sure an RN nuke acted as a kind of early warning system in regards to Argentine aircraft in the Falklands War.

I could have imagined that though.

 

[Kilo 2-3]

I'm pretty sure an RN nuke acted as a kind of early warning system in regards to Argentine aircraft in the Falklands War.

I could have imagined that though.

The idea of submarines serving as radar pickets is by no means a new one ( see links below). Surface-based radars and AEW/AWACS seem to have offset the need for sub radar pickets today, though.

Cold War Curiosities. U.S. Radar Picket Submarines.
USS Triton (SSN 586)

 

[Spetsznaz]

yes to all 3

caveats
1) - not an aircraft carrier, though
2) - yes, but not using "radar"
3) - its a one time benefit in a conflict and has too many constraints to be useful as a formal solution

Could a submarine possibly launch a F-35 or STOVAL aircraft? How many Fighters would it be possible to fit into a submarine that would be capable of launching them?

 

[Kilo 2-3]

Could a submarine possibly launch a F-35 or STOVAL aircraft? How many Fighters would it be possible to fit into a submarine that would be capable of launching them?

In theory, yes. But you'd have to build a hangar, flight deck, some kind of Fresnel Lens landing aid, bunkerage for JP5, pilot and airedale quarters, spares storage, and a magazine for missiles, bombs, etc. And to do launch and recovery you'd have to surface fairly close to shore, exposing the sub to ASW threats. Honestly, I can't see the benefits outweighing the drawbacks.

You'd be better off carrying a load of cruise missiles (e.g. the SSGNs).

On the other hand, small, semi-disposable UAVs show a fair amount of utility for submarine applications.

 

[Spetsznaz]

In theory, yes. But you'd have to build a hangar, flight deck, some kind of Fresnel Lens landing aid, bunkerage for JP5, pilot and airedale quarters, spares storage, and a magazine for missiles, bombs, etc. And to do launch and recovery you'd have to surface fairly close to shore, exposing the sub to ASW threats. Honestly, I can't see the benefits outweighing the drawbacks.

You'd be better off carrying a load of cruise missiles (e.g. the SSGNs).

On the other hand, small, semi-disposable UAVs show a fair amount of utility for submarine applications.

I have another question, again it might be stupid because I know nothing about warship.

Do submarines engage each other like fighter (BVR) Do submarine just get a lock on another submarine and fire the torpedo and forget.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I have another question, again it might be stupid because I know nothing about warship.

Do submarines engage each other like fighter (BVR) Do submarine just get a lock on another submarine and fire the torpedo and forget.

Submarines don't usually have to many windows and spend most of their time underwater. In and pre WWII submarines sometimes did surface to shoot each other or ships, and sometimes had antiaircraft guns or anti shipping guns, some did carry aircraft.

Torpedos are generally pretty smart, they all have some sort of homing system usually based on accoustics (sonar or just passive).

Submarines usually do have radar, they just don't use it all that often. Most of the time they are just listening for other peoples radars.

Submarines aren't like surface targets, you give up your position, your dead. You wait, pretty much silent for some rockband noisey thing to appear and you shot them and run.

Nukes can play a bit differently (as most nukes can out run most munitions 45+ kt) but essentially its the same game, be as silent and do as little as possible while listening for everything..

 

[kato]

3) - its a one time benefit in a conflict and has too many constraints to be useful as a formal solution

Somehow the idea of a CAPTOR concept in combination with an autonomous IDAS-equivalent missile comes to mind.

 

[Spetsznaz]

Somehow the idea of a CAPTOR concept in combination with an autonomous IDAS-equivalent missile comes to mind.

Yeah, exactly something like that.

I mean couldn't a submarine become sort of a "stealth fighter" because it can stay submerged and not appear on aircraft radar and then it can surface (or not surface) and launch SAM missiles at approaching enemy aircraft and then dive back down.

Seems like a good idea, but maybe I am missing something obvious.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Somehow the idea of a CAPTOR concept in combination with an autonomous IDAS-equivalent missile comes to mind.

the main point is that as soon as a sub shows its hand where air is about, it has telegraphed a search grid opportunity for anyone on red team

its a survival tool, I don't see much benefit for any sub taking on an anti-air role outside of self defence. It destroys some of the basic tenets of sub operations and their survivability

 

[Volkodav]

There were reports in the 80's, not confirmed of course, that Israeli subs had Blowpipe missiles. It was also intended for the tube launched Polyphem, had it entered service, to be able to be used against sub hunting helicopters.

Got a photo of the set up in one of my books, I will try to hunt it down and post the reference if I find it. I do remember it was a triple missile arrangement on a mast.

 

[Volkodav]

the main point is that as soon as a sub shows its hand where air is about, it has telegraphed a search grid opportunity for anyone on red team

its a survival tool, I don't see much benefit for any sub taking on an anti-air role outside of self defence. It destroys some of the basic tenets of sub operations and their survivability

My understanding is the concept is to plink an ASW helo once it has found and is attacking the sub. Its a last ditch measure to give the sub a chance of escaping, but then again if the sub is quiet enough a helo that actually saw it dive will lose it in short order anyway (i.e. rumor has it the USN found this out when cheating during RIMPAC a few years back, an Oceanhawk followed WALLER out of Pearl, watched her dive and promptly lost the contact)

 

[kato]

Yeah, exactly something like that.

I don't think you caught quite what i was suggesting there, which would be an anti-aircraft/anti-surface sea mine that doesn't necessarily have to be laid by submarine.

 

[gf0012-aust]

My understanding is the concept is to plink an ASW helo once it has found and is attacking the sub. Its a last ditch measure to give the sub a chance of escaping, but then again if the sub is quiet enough a helo that actually saw it dive will lose it in short order anyway (i.e. rumor has it the USN found this out when cheating during RIMPAC a few years back, an Oceanhawk followed WALLER out of Pearl, watched her dive and promptly lost the contact)

\
Kiwis did the same with one of their Orions - it caused a bit of hoo har as it was seen as not playing by the rules...

 

[aussienscale]

\
Kiwis did the same with one of their Orions - it caused a bit of hoo har as it was seen as not playing by the rules...

IIRC the same thing happened to Rankin during Op Silent Fury, the Americans were meant to let her slip away to make the game realistic but they stayed active tracking her with two escorts following her, but they still lost them ! Rankin ended up winning, taking the pics and played the kill song here is a youtube clip of it for those interested
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8Kv4rqR6RQ"]YouTube - Australian Sub nearly pwns US Navy[/nomedia]

Don't take too much notice of the title, the Americans were owned

 

[mk25]

I have a few questions: when a submarine detects another surface ship and decide to launch anti-ship cruise missile at the surface ship, what form of guidance does the submarine use to guide the missile to the ship?

If the submarine is going to launch missile attack at a target on land, how would the submarine first be able to detect and identify this target?

Also, when a submarine shut down its engine, would it possbile for any platform to detect the submarine? Thanks