The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[kromeriz]

Moving back to the Royal Navy and where are
HMS Invincible
HMS Illustrious
HMS Ark Royal
and
Ocean, Bulwark and Albion.

Does the UK have anything at the moment that could help in evacuating Brit nationals from Libya?

I know a couple of the above have been on E-Bay...

Is it just my feeling or we have nothing other than the Sausage which was on its way to join Indy on the scrap?

 

[StoresBasher]

Moving back to the Royal Navy and where are
HMS Invincible
HMS Illustrious
HMS Ark Royal
and
Ocean, Bulwark and Albion.

Does the UK have anything at the moment that could help in evacuating Brit nationals from Libya?

I know a couple of the above have been on E-Bay...

Is it just my feeling or we have nothing other than the Sausage which was on its way to join Indy on the scrap?

HMS Cumberland, is currently off the Libyan coast, waiting until it is safe to come alongside and pick up the British citizens.

 

[1805]

Moving back to the Royal Navy and where are
HMS Invincible
HMS Illustrious
HMS Ark Royal
and
Ocean, Bulwark and Albion.

Does the UK have anything at the moment that could help in evacuating Brit nationals from Libya?

I know a couple of the above have been on E-Bay...

Is it just my feeling or we have nothing other than the Sausage which was on its way to join Indy on the scrap?

I heard today the RAF are sending out an aircraft to help evacuate UK national. But you are right another opportunity lost for the RN to demonstrate the value LPD/LPH/LSD can add, at least Cumberland, assume you mean in reference to those very fine sausages ;-) was in the area.

 

[kromeriz]

HMS Cumberland, is currently off the Libyan coast, waiting until it is safe to come alongside and pick up the British citizens.

Otherwise known as the sausage as in Cumberland sausage... but we have nothing that can carry a large number of refugees that I can see. At the mo, I can not find much info on Bulwark, Albion or Ocean, hence the question.

 

[kromeriz]

I heard today the RAF are sending out an aircraft to help evacuate UK national. But you are right another opportunity lost for the RN to demonstrate the value LPD/LPH/LSD can add, at least Cumberland was in the area.

Now if only we had an aircraft carrier with some serviceable planes we would be prepared if a no-fly zone was invoked...:flaming

 

[1805]

Otherwise known as the sausage as in Cumberland sausage... but we have nothing that can carry a large number of refugees that I can see. At the mo, I can not find much info on Bulwark, Albion or Ocean, hence the question.

Actually probably the best type of ship to send would be HDMS Absalon, couple big helicopters and plenty of space for people.

 

[riksavage]

Moving back to the Royal Navy and where are
HMS Invincible
HMS Illustrious
HMS Ark Royal
and
Ocean, Bulwark and Albion.

Does the UK have anything at the moment that could help in evacuating Brit nationals from Libya?

I know a couple of the above have been on E-Bay...

Is it just my feeling or we have nothing other than the Sausage which was on its way to join Indy on the scrap?

HMS Cumberland is off Benghazi waiting to dock (she was on her way back from the Gulf and was diverted) . I suspect she will stay until all the ferries have come and gone from Malta (including US chartered boats). Where's the US 5th based out of Bahrain, they have assets galore?

1 x SAS Sqn plus SFSG have moved to Cyprus (apparently), they are tasked with extracting those civvies stuck in remote locations if foreign national start getting targeted.

1 x Herc has landed in Tripoli and C17's are on standby at Brize.

Compared to India (18,000 nationals), the UK has a pretty small, if vocal contingent in country, most have departed with the exception of those stuck in remote sites. If the violence continues and food/water starts to run low then the UK SF will have to secure a safe haven for an airlift. The SF Chinook's, fitted with long range tanks should be able to make the run from Malta via Naples (NATO Southern Command). A helo extraction has to be the way forward thus avoiding the road network.

Warships are overkill. The Libyans have a small regular military, a deliberate ploy by the resident 'nutter' leader to avoid the chance of a military coup. The secret police were the real enablers.

 

[gf0012-aust]

you don't need to send a warship to evacuate people, in fact the best ships are probably the any number of fast ferrys that ply the med.

they've been contracted out before for this kind of work, they can do the job and they have crews already familiar with mass movement.

warships serve to send a message and to demonstrate latent intent

you can do that by sending a suitably armed skimmer to run gunshot with a large merchie or ferry.

they only need to get them to the nearest friendly port, and under the current circumstances, there aren't going to be too many countries that would deny access to a merchant ship on a mercy recovery

carriers are overkill for these missions. the Libyans would be off their trees to attack a merchant vessel doing recovery.

 

[kromeriz]

HMS Cumberland is off Benghazi waiting to dock (she was on her way back from the Gulf and was diverted) . I suspect she will stay until all the ferries have come and gone from Malta (including US chartered boats). Where's the US 5th based out of Bahrain, they have assets galore?

1 x SAS Sqn plus SFSG have moved to Cyprus (apparently), they are tasked with extracting those civvies stuck in remote locations if foreign national start getting targeted.

1 x Herc has landed in Tripoli and C17's are on standby at Brize.

Compared to India (18,000 nationals), the UK has a pretty small, if vocal contingent in country, most have departed with the exception of those stuck in remote sites. If the violence continues and food/water starts to run low then the UK SF will have to secure a safe haven for an airlift. The SF Chinook's, fitted with long range tanks should be able to make the run from Malta or Naples (NATO Southern Command).T here are about 150 UK nationals in remote areas, better off arranging a helo extraction thus avoiding using the road network.

Thanks. Although the 6th fleet might be nearer. There has been a lot of comment on arrse as whether to be involved. I would favour a no fly being imposed which would help with air extraction should it have to happen, of ex-patriates.

 

[kromeriz]

you don't need to send a warship to evacuate people, in fact the best ships are probably the any number of fast ferrys that ply the med.

they've been contracted out before for this kind of work, they can do the job and they have crews already familiar with mass movement.

warships serve to send a message and to demonstrate latent intent

you can do that by sending a suitably armed skimmer to run gunshot with a large merchie or ferry.

they only need to get them to the nearest friendly port, and under the current circumstances, there aren't going to be too many countries that would deny access to a merchant ship on a mercy recovery

carriers are overkill for these missions. the Libyans would be off their trees to attack a merchant vessel doing recovery.

Thanks

 

[StevoJH]

Moving back to the Royal Navy and where are
HMS Invincible

Decommissioned and sold for scrap

HMS Illustrious

Being prepared for decommissioning?

HMS Ark Royal

Decommissioned

and

Ocean, Bulwark and Albion.

Refit, No Idea, No Idea

Does the UK have anything at the moment that could help in evacuating Brit nationals from Libya?

HMS Cumberland

I know a couple of the above have been on E-Bay...

Illustrious from memory. However E-bay apparrently E-bay do not let you sell Aircraft Carriers (Minas Geras was up there at one point until removed)

Is it just my feeling or we have nothing other than the Sausage which was on its way to join Indy on the scrap?

:dbanana

 

[kromeriz]

you don't need to send a warship to evacuate people, in fact the best ships are probably the any number of fast ferrys that ply the med.

they've been contracted out before for this kind of work, they can do the job and they have crews already familiar with mass movement.

warships serve to send a message and to demonstrate latent intent

you can do that by sending a suitably armed skimmer to run gunshot with a large merchie or ferry.

they only need to get them to the nearest friendly port, and under the current circumstances, there aren't going to be too many countries that would deny access to a merchant ship on a mercy recovery

carriers are overkill for these missions. the Libyans would be off their trees to attack a merchant vessel doing recovery.

Must point out that I was reserve forces land and was brought up in Barrow in Furness hence Navy interest. However, the thought occurred to me that HMS Daring is a supposed Anti Air Destroyer... well, should be...:rolling

 

[gf0012-aust]

I would favour a no fly being imposed which would help with air extraction should it have to happen, of ex-patriates.

You cannot impose a no-fly within sovereign territory

you either:
- declare war (which achieves a worse outcome and serves to put all your nationals and ex-pats immediately at risk - plus they will probably cause grief for other nations nationals making your own country very very unpopular with its friends etc...)
- you get the UN Security Council to unanimously make it a declared zone for recovery (and that still is not legal enough reason to enter sovereign waters and impose your will - as it can be regarded as a hostile act)
- you take the softly softly approach and plan for contingency

ie large people movers outside the 12 mile limit if denied access and then wait for permission to enter

if they kill foreign nationals, then things change. if they don't you can do squat.

they can deny your aircraft and your ships access - and you can do bugger all about it.

 

[StevoJH]

You cannot impose a no-fly within sovereign territory

Apparrently a certain Mr Rudd is requesting that the UN Security council do just that.

With the aim of preventing the use of the Libyan Airforce on their own citizens. Only heard it on the radio so no idea if anyone else is advocating it.

 

[1805]

you don't need to send a warship to evacuate people, in fact the best ships are probably the any number of fast ferrys that ply the med.

they've been contracted out before for this kind of work, they can do the job and they have crews already familiar with mass movement.

warships serve to send a message and to demonstrate latent intent

you can do that by sending a suitably armed skimmer to run gunshot with a large merchie or ferry.

they only need to get them to the nearest friendly port, and under the current circumstances, there aren't going to be too many countries that would deny access to a merchant ship on a mercy recovery

carriers are overkill for these missions. the Libyans would be off their trees to attack a merchant vessel doing recovery.

Completely agree it's true that a ferry likely is far more useful than a warship in evacuating UK nationals. However in a similar way to the ash crowd panic last year these situations are opportunities for the RN to raise it's profile.

All that stuff about lebanon being the largest evacuation since Dunkirk, great PR and the RN needs it. The problems have been in the Med for some weeks now the RN should anticipate and get ships in the region. Ships that are just about to be scrapped are particularly useful as they create even better headlines I guess Cumberland meets that criteria

 

[riksavage]

Considering there a very few reports of foreign nationals being targeted the current low key approach appears to be the right way forward, gun boat diplomacy is unwarranted. At the end of the day there are enough NATO assets in the Med to evacuate all member state nationals stuck in country. NATO members (including the US) have taken a softly, softly approach and used civilian assets (chartered aircraft and ferries) to run folk back to Malta.

The UK press, as usual, is wining like a bunch of spoilt children because the UK wasn't first out the traps. Those expats blabbing on Sky should thank their lucky stars they are not Bangladeshi, who will be left to fend for themselves.

 

[1805]

Must point out that I was reserve forces land and was brought up in Barrow in Furness hence Navy interest. However, the thought occurred to me that HMS Daring is a supposed Anti Air Destroyer... well, should be...:rolling

Interesting thought could a Daring (maybe need more than one as they wouldn't have enough missiles?) impose a "no fly" zone on Libya on it's own?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Apparrently a certain Mr Rudd is requesting that the UN Security council do just that.

With the aim of preventing the use of the Libyan Airforce on their own citizens. Only heard it on the radio so no idea if anyone else is advocating it.

And the 5 members of the Security Council will unanimously do squat as they will not all agree to it.

The UN cannot do anything unless they bring about sanction and that requires the 5 members of the SC to sing from the same page.

Even if the UN applies sanction, it is still sovereign territory and that nation can regard unauthorised entry into her space as a hostile act.

whether they like it or not, they are hogtied by that lunatic at the moment.

the unfort reality is that it will take a praetorian guard outcome (likely) to unseat and remove him, and more importantly, it will require rebel libyan forces to neutralise his sons military guard as well.

the best that any of us can do is to continue to pull people out by air and hope that there is no loss of control of major transport hubs. - to get them out by sea it means hoping that the anti-gadaffi proponents continue to hold control of the ports.

unless you kill the capacity for him to command military forces, there is no guarantee that gadaffi sympathisers will not use military force against transit points of entry/exit

there is no wild west solution here.

 

[1805]

Considering there a very few reports of foreign nationals being targeted the current low key approach appears to be the right way forward, gun boat diplomacy is unwarranted. At the end of the day there are enough NATO assets in the Med to evacuate all member state nationals stuck in country. NATO members (including the US) have taken a softly, softly approach and used civilian assets (chartered aircraft and ferries) to run folk back to Malta.

The UK press, as usual, is wining like a bunch of spoilt children because the UK wasn't first out the traps. Those expats blabbing on Sky should thank their lucky stars they are not Bangladeshi, who will be left to fend for themselves.

Is the West approach to Libya similar to Iran in 1979, softly softly or don't know which way to jump?

I'm sure the Bangladeshi nationals will be left on their own, but then they are unlikely to be targeted by an anti Western mob?

 

[gf0012-aust]

I'm sure the Bangladeshi nationals will be left on their own, but then they are unlikely to be targeted by an anti Western mob?

Generally speaking, when a country does not have representation and a capacity to assist, they formally request the assistance of another friendly to do so.

at a convention level, those nationals are then under the protection of that assisting nation even though they are not nationals from the assisting nation.

eg Australia has complied with requests from India and Canada when there were problems in Fiji.

During the baltic probs, aust nationals were dealt with by canadian embassy staff where australian embassy staff were not at available.

the Bangladeshis have a large presence in the ME and Nth Africa, so I would not imagine that it would be too difficult for them to get assistance from the Saudis, etc....

the Bangladeshis are very critical to the day to day functioning of some of those economies, so they would be silly to leave them at risk.