NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

I think you'll find the ASW suite was never removed from the P3's - they refused to upgrade it, so as I understand it the P3's are still train for ASW, just with an ancient & no-doubt unreliable sensor suite.

I am concerned that the DWP only gives scant reference to P3 upgrades, including the all important self-defence suite - the strongest wording is 'might'.

To me the word "might" in the current financial climate is effectively saying it's not a high priority & is therefore very highly unlikely.

My pick is the P3 won't see any further upgrades and that new ASW, self-defence suite, & new weapons will only come as part of the P3 replacement.

Why doesn't that surprise me. Maybe it's an old sea story but back when I was wet behind the ears in the RNZAF (when we had a real air force) I heard a story that in the sub hunting competition - Fincastle trophy I think between us, RAAF (Neptune), RAF (Shackleton), RCAF (Aurora) &USN (P3) we won it in a Sunderland.

 

[recce.k1]

My pick is the P3 won't see any further upgrades and that new ASW, self-defence suite, & new weapons will only come as part of the P3 replacement.

I'm going to stick my neck out by suggesting:

1. Again that Timing is Everything PDF (see pages 122/123) is rather hinting that the current Project Guardian (P-3K2) upgrade will allow the appropriate ASW modules to be integrated, and possibly at a comparatively cheap cost (seems to be suggesting several millions, maybe tens of millions of dollars, as opposed to hundreds of millions, but of course this needs to be confirmed once the proposed ASW system is defined etc).

Some reading on the new EL/M-2022 (V)3 surface search radar system being fitted to the P-3K2's:
http://www.iai.co.il/33693-35738-en/ELTA.aspx
http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/2/36832.pdf
http://babriet.tripod.com/articles/art_mpasensor.htm
From the last URL, it states:
"Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI)'s Elta division has scored success with its EL/M-2022A multi-mode maritime surveillance radar family, sold to equip both fixed-wing (MPAs, UAVs) and rotary- wing airborne platforms against strong competition from key US, UK and French suppliers. The radar is derived from the EL/M-2032 fire-control radar used in fighter aircraft, and is designed to perform maritime target surveillance, and economic exclusion zone protection and sea-traffic control.

There are three baseline versions: EL/M-2022A(V)1 lightweight/remote controlled for use on board UAVs; EL/M-2022A(V)2 and EL/M-2022A (V) 3. The last two are typically for use on board MPAs and the most capable one, the (V)3, at a weight of up to 103kg and a power consumption of 2.3kW, can detect a 1m[2] target in Sea State 3 out to 30nm (54km) and a small ship out to 80nm (144km), according to Elta data".

2. It's been said somewhere, once the Project Guardian P-3K2's are accepted into RNZAF service (seeing the project is a couple of years behind) supposedly early this year, then the next phases can commence (self defence and selection of an appropriate stand off weaponry etc).

3. I'd imagine once the P-3K2 is accepted into service and declared operational etc, the self-defence upgrade will be funded to commence. The reason, because the Govt will have a high-tech deployable platform and the self-defence upgrade will become a necessary requirement if the P-3K2's are to be deployed to the Middle East or Asia in support of current NZDF (or coalition) deployments (plus this was previously identified in Labour's LTDP's seeing that self-defence upgrades to aircraft deploying into theatres/ME Ops are a priority eg C-130H, P-3K2, new NH-90 etc). Perhaps this aspect can happen in parallel with the current upgrades when they commence on aircraft (is it ) 2 or 3 to 6?

4. Then the stand-off weapon situation. I would suggest that seeing the P-3K2's will have an overland survellience capability, it could be very well feasible to prioritise a land-attack munition (for NZDF/Coalition support in the ME, Asia, SE Asia etc) over a maritime-attack missile (unless it could perform both roles eg SLAM-ER etc)? I'd suggest NZDF might be considering moving on from the Harpoon as there are a number of modern alternatives available now, so maybe the clue might be to see where the ADF are heading (and other fora suggest unofficially there are no major issues with fitting the required wiring to the RNZAF's P-3 hard-points etc).

Just being both optimistic and realistic, so who knows, something else could come along and derail this etc. Incidentally the RNZAF practice ASW training with the ADF in their training areas, so there must still be some legacy ASW equipment on board the non-upgraded P-3K models (and surely they won't be transferring the old ASW kit over to the "new" P-3K2'S because of compatibility and integration issues, so maybe that could be a clue to a very near-future ASW upgrade....which the Govt has alluded to in DWP2010 (but fair call Gibbo, when is the question, but certainly before their eventual replacements it seems)!

Edit: re Fincastle Trophy, the RNZAF last won it in 1997 and 1998 according to Wikipedia (in their old P-3K's)! Looks like the Sunderland first won it for the RNZAF in 1964, so this must have been the guts of what you heard years ago, Ngatimozart)!

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fincastle_competition[/ame]

 

[RubiconNZ]

NZ SAS Deployment Extended
TVNZ

For those who haven't caught it yet, the NZ SAS deployment has bee extended for a further 12 months though with a 50% reduction taking the deployment to around 35. This comes from an apparent request from the Task group to finish the job.

Good news IMO, staying to keep the job done, a continuation of the training of the Afghani Response unit and a continued demonstration of supporting the Allied forces.

 

[ngatimozart]

NZ SAS Deployment Extended
TVNZ

For those who haven't caught it yet, the NZ SAS deployment has bee extended for a further 12 months though with a 50% reduction taking the deployment to around 35. This comes from an apparent request from the Task group to finish the job.

Good news IMO, staying to keep the job done, a continuation of the training of the Afghani Response unit and a continued demonstration of supporting the Allied forces.

Good thing too. With our SAS teaching them the Afghani Response Unit will be taught properly and not some half assed cowboy way which is how the Americans usually do it

 

[Bonza]

Good thing too. With our SAS teaching them the Afghani Response Unit will be taught properly and not some half assed cowboy way which is how the Americans usually do it

Oi! Who told you it was alright to start ragging on Americans? Watch your mouth, mate - I don't care which country it is you have a grudge against, leave it at the door when you start posting. Understood?

 

[recce.k1]

I hazard a guess that the NZSAS are probably working quite closely with the US there in Kabul, from the tidbits of info offered so far (and would be appreciative of the support and backup firepower on offer to them if required as well)!

 

[RubiconNZ]

I hazard a guess that the NZSAS are probably working quite closely with the US there in Kabul, from the tidbits of info offered so far (and would be appreciative of the support and backup firepower on offer to them if required as well)!

Probably allows some free upgrades in true Kiwi fashion

 

[Gibbo]

I'm going to stick my neck out by suggesting:

1. Again that Timing is Everything PDF (see pages 122/123) is rather hinting that the current Project Guardian (P-3K2) upgrade will allow the appropriate ASW modules to be integrated, and possibly at a comparatively cheap cost (seems to be suggesting several millions, maybe tens of millions of dollars, as opposed to hundreds of millions, but of course this needs to be confirmed once the proposed ASW system is defined etc).

Some reading on the new EL/M-2022 (V)3 surface search radar system being fitted to the P-3K2's:
http://www.iai.co.il/33693-35738-en/ELTA.aspx
http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/2/36832.pdf
Above-water warfare sensors for MPAs
From the last URL, it states:
"Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI)'s Elta division has scored success with its EL/M-2022A multi-mode maritime surveillance radar family, sold to equip both fixed-wing (MPAs, UAVs) and rotary- wing airborne platforms against strong competition from key US, UK and French suppliers. The radar is derived from the EL/M-2032 fire-control radar used in fighter aircraft, and is designed to perform maritime target surveillance, and economic exclusion zone protection and sea-traffic control.

There are three baseline versions: EL/M-2022A(V)1 lightweight/remote controlled for use on board UAVs; EL/M-2022A(V)2 and EL/M-2022A (V) 3. The last two are typically for use on board MPAs and the most capable one, the (V)3, at a weight of up to 103kg and a power consumption of 2.3kW, can detect a 1m[2] target in Sea State 3 out to 30nm (54km) and a small ship out to 80nm (144km), according to Elta data".

2. It's been said somewhere, once the Project Guardian P-3K2's are accepted into RNZAF service (seeing the project is a couple of years behind) supposedly early this year, then the next phases can commence (self defence and selection of an appropriate stand off weaponry etc).

3. I'd imagine once the P-3K2 is accepted into service and declared operational etc, the self-defence upgrade will be funded to commence. The reason, because the Govt will have a high-tech deployable platform and the self-defence upgrade will become a necessary requirement if the P-3K2's are to be deployed to the Middle East or Asia in support of current NZDF (or coalition) deployments (plus this was previously identified in Labour's LTDP's seeing that self-defence upgrades to aircraft deploying into theatres/ME Ops are a priority eg C-130H, P-3K2, new NH-90 etc). Perhaps this aspect can happen in parallel with the current upgrades when they commence on aircraft (is it ) 2 or 3 to 6?

4. Then the stand-off weapon situation. I would suggest that seeing the P-3K2's will have an overland survellience capability, it could be very well feasible to prioritise a land-attack munition (for NZDF/Coalition support in the ME, Asia, SE Asia etc) over a maritime-attack missile (unless it could perform both roles eg SLAM-ER etc)? I'd suggest NZDF might be considering moving on from the Harpoon as there are a number of modern alternatives available now, so maybe the clue might be to see where the ADF are heading (and other fora suggest unofficially there are no major issues with fitting the required wiring to the RNZAF's P-3 hard-points etc).

Just being both optimistic and realistic, so who knows, something else could come along and derail this etc. Incidentally the RNZAF practice ASW training with the ADF in their training areas, so there must still be some legacy ASW equipment on board the non-upgraded P-3K models (and surely they won't be transferring the old ASW kit over to the "new" P-3K2'S because of compatibility and integration issues, so maybe that could be a clue to a very near-future ASW upgrade....which the Govt has alluded to in DWP2010 (but fair call Gibbo, when is the question, but certainly before their eventual replacements it seems)!

Edit: re Fincastle Trophy, the RNZAF last won it in 1997 and 1998 according to Wikipedia (in their old P-3K's)! Looks like the Sunderland first won it for the RNZAF in 1964, so this must have been the guts of what you heard years ago, Ngatimozart)!

Fincastle competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hope I'm proven wrong about the P3 not getting more upgrades post P3-K2! But I feel it's more relevant to be quoting the DWP as that is a clear statement of Govt intent. Section 5.39 gives hope but the word 'may' doesn't allude to having any sort of urgency or priority.
>>>
5.39 The current upgrade of the six P-3 Orions will continue. The aircraft may then progressively be fitted with self-protection and anti-submarine sensors, improving their combat capability and enhancing the ability of New Zealand to contribute more robustly to global efforts. The P-3 Orions will be replaced with an equivalent level of capability, manned or unmanned, in about 2025. Studies closer to this date will determine the types of replacement platform.
<<<

Then I feel section 8.4 puts a dampner on that - when one reflects of the huge drive by govt to reign in spending - incl. $400M 'back-end' from NZDF.
>>>
8.4 The Crown is already committed to a number of acquisition and upgrade programmes contracted for over the past decade, including new helicopters and the upgrade of the C-130 Hercules and P-3 Orion fleets. These programmes are putting pressure on the budget of the NZDF. Depreciation alone is expected to rise by about $100 million over the next two years.
<<<

All of the above is basically the sum total of reference to the P3's in the DWP - somewhat disappointing I feel.

 

[ngatimozart]

Oi! Who told you it was alright to start ragging on Americans? Watch your mouth, mate - I don't care which country it is you have a grudge against, leave it at the door when you start posting. Understood?

I apologise unreservedly. I will leave it at the gate.

 

[ngatimozart]

Hope I'm proven wrong about the P3 not getting more upgrades post P3-K2! But I feel it's more relevant to be quoting the DWP as that is a clear statement of Govt intent. Section 5.39 gives hope but the word 'may' doesn't allude to having any sort of urgency or priority.
>>>
5.39 The current upgrade of the six P-3 Orions will continue. The aircraft may then progressively be fitted with self-protection and anti-submarine sensors, improving their combat capability and enhancing the ability of New Zealand to contribute more robustly to global efforts. The P-3 Orions will be replaced with an equivalent level of capability, manned or unmanned, in about 2025. Studies closer to this date will determine the types of replacement platform.
<<<

Then I feel section 8.4 puts a dampner on that - when one reflects of the huge drive by govt to reign in spending - incl. $400M 'back-end' from NZDF.
>>>
8.4 The Crown is already committed to a number of acquisition and upgrade programmes contracted for over the past decade, including new helicopters and the upgrade of the C-130 Hercules and P-3 Orion fleets. These programmes are putting pressure on the budget of the NZDF. Depreciation alone is expected to rise by about $100 million over the next two years.
<<<

All of the above is basically the sum total of reference to the P3's in the DWP - somewhat disappointing I feel.

I've got a copy of the DWP as well and my impression of the $400M is that it is a targeted per annum saving across the three services. So my question is with the civilianising of all the non combat positions will the civilian payroll and associated costs like ACC levies and Kiwi Saver levies etc., be paid by NZDF or the Ministry of Defence? If 2025 is accepted as the crunch year then by my calculations that gives NZ$5.6 Billion in the kitty as long as nobody helps themselves to it in the mean time. That is at present day $ values. If the Ministry of Defence was to pick up the costs mentioned above for the non combat roles then NZDF should be able to met the savings goal. But to quote an Americanism "not on Gods green Earth" will that happen. NZDF will pick up the cost and whilst it puts shooters on the sharp end, I think a civilian bureaucracy is going to increase costs in the long run, because they will most likely come from the public service and be run by the State Service Commission. I don't have anything against the public service or the SSC but it will be a separate chain of command and different rules and interpretations thereof.

Back in 1981 I worked in Defence HQ, Wellington as a RNZAF serviceman in a civilian area. My boss was a civvy and not used to the service way of doing things. It was the same for me and lead to some misunderstandings, which over time were sorted out. The civil service then was totally different to what it is now - well I sure hope it is. It was full of time fillers and empire builders. In equivalent positions service personnel could do the same job twice as fast and twice as efficiently. In fact if we worked it right we'd go to the Back Bar of the Midland pub for Breakfast, Lion Pub for lunch and then straight onto the Dungeon bar until going home time which was anytime we felt like. Every Friday a flyboy Wing Co had a parade at the Lion pub at 1200. If you were absent the charge was: "Failure to appear at place of parade appointed by your Commanding Officer". Fine 2 pints.

My point is although the DWP states that by moving all service personnel into combat roles and putting civilians in non combat roles costs will be saved and service personnel better utilised, I do not think that costs will be saved but in fact may increase.

 

[JoeMcFriday]

Hope I'm proven wrong about the P3 not getting more upgrades post P3-K2! But I feel it's more relevant to be quoting the DWP as that is a clear statement of Govt intent. Section 5.39 gives hope but the word 'may' doesn't allude to having any sort of urgency or priority.
>>>
5.39 The current upgrade of the six P-3 Orions will continue. The aircraft may then progressively be fitted with self-protection and anti-submarine sensors, improving their combat capability and enhancing the ability of New Zealand to contribute more robustly to global efforts. The P-3 Orions will be replaced with an equivalent level of capability, manned or unmanned, in about 2025. Studies closer to this date will determine the types of replacement platform.
<<<

Then I feel section 8.4 puts a dampner on that - when one reflects of the huge drive by govt to reign in spending - incl. $400M 'back-end' from NZDF.
>>>
8.4 The Crown is already committed to a number of acquisition and upgrade programmes contracted for over the past decade, including new helicopters and the upgrade of the C-130 Hercules and P-3 Orion fleets. These programmes are putting pressure on the budget of the NZDF. Depreciation alone is expected to rise by about $100 million over the next two years.
<<<

All of the above is basically the sum total of reference to the P3's in the DWP - somewhat disappointing I feel.

I don't know if this link is any help re. P3s?

New Zealand AF Projects Start To Show Progress - Defense News

Interesting to note the reference to the air to air capability of the radar.

Cheers,
Mac

 

[Gibbo]

I've got a copy of the DWP as well and my impression of the $400M is that it is a targeted per annum saving across the three services....

My point is although the DWP states that by moving all service personnel into combat roles and putting civilians in non combat roles costs will be saved and service personnel better utilised, I do not think that costs will be saved but in fact may increase.

Yep it is across all 3. Totally agree Govt may feel they can cut costs but I guarantee they haven't done any actual analysis of how yet - it could well cost more! (especially if the dreaded 'contractors' get their claws in!)

It's more about a philosphical belief that private business is more efficient - hell I work in one of the 'big' banks & we're full of empire builders & incompetent management - go figure! :ar15

I struggle to see how they really will make the savings they anticipate - hell the B757 capability is under real threat after Rod 'chopper' Deane had his go - all he talked about was it's VIP work - it can do a lot more than that!

The mantra of 'moving funds for the back-end to the front-end' is just political clap-trap (ask DOC, MAF etc what's happening to their front-ends!). Anyway I digress!

So this is why when the Govt says only that they 'may' upgrade P3 further it doesn't resonate with me.

 

[ngatimozart]

I don't know if this link is any help re. P3s?

New Zealand AF Projects Start To Show Progress - Defense News

I interested to note the reference to the air to air capability of the radar.

Cheers,
Mac

Interesting indeed. Question why give the k-2 air to air (interception?) capability if we don't have a ACW? I know that P3's can have AIM9's mounted. Another thing of note whats with the stall anomalies with digital indicated airspeed? Surely on a test you would have at least two separate systems to measure indicated airspeed and if the digital version is reading wrong you have a software bug. The P3 stall characteristics would have been known for many years under a very wide variety of conditions so unless they have made changes to the external shape of the airframe or the wing surely you could model the stall parameters and the digital airspeed sensor in a computer. I note the Elta EL/M 2022A has 256 target Track-While-Scan (TWS), including IFF tracking IFF Interrogator integration-IFF & IFF/Radar modes. I wonder if this is a sub system to what the Israeli's are building into the Indian AF IL 76 AEW aircraft.

 

[Bonza]

Interesting indeed. Question why give the k-2 air to air (interception?) capability if we don't have a ACW? I know that P3's can have AIM9's mounted.

There's more utility to radar detection of air contacts than firing missiles at them. An air tracking capability gives you a greater measure of control over your airspace because you can see what's happening outside the range of static ground based radars and shape your reactions accordingly.

If a missile launch is required you don't need the P-3 to have a missile capability, provided you can feed sensor data to other platforms via datalinks (not sure where NZ stands in this regard). Then, for example, a nearby ANZAC could cue a missile launch from the P-3's incoming sensor data. So the weapon capability isn't necessarily limited to the same platform as the sensor capability.

I'm not entirely sure how this would work with the older Sea Sparrows, as I don't know what they require in terms of target illumination, but that's just an example to illustrate the principle of how the capability could be used in a scenario requiring a missile launch.

Likewise it can be used to increase situational awareness, whether it's simply keeping an eye on local air traffic, providing an extended radar horizon for surface vessels, or whatever. I'm just throwing out examples here, there are other posters who are far better able to explain the utility of these things than I.

 

[JoeMcFriday]

Interesting indeed. Question why give the k-2 air to air (interception?) capability if we don't have a ACW? I know that P3's can have AIM9's mounted. Another thing of note whats with the stall anomalies with digital indicated airspeed? Surely on a test you would have at least two separate systems to measure indicated airspeed and if the digital version is reading wrong you have a software bug. The P3 stall characteristics would have been known for many years under a very wide variety of conditions so unless they have made changes to the external shape of the airframe or the wing surely you could model the stall parameters and the digital airspeed sensor in a computer. I note the Elta EL/M 2022A has 256 target Track-While-Scan (TWS), including IFF tracking IFF Interrogator integration-IFF & IFF/Radar modes. I wonder if this is a sub system to what the Israeli's are building into the Indian AF IL 76 AEW aircraft.

as Bonza said, plus this link is a bit dated but it does give a pretty wide coverage of systems and their versatility.

http://babriet.tripod.com/articles/art_mpasensor.htm

The Elta and the RAAF [P3C] coverage is about a third of the way down. The Elta's versatility offers much to conjecture about, maybe it's just for commonality with the RAAF and all that implies, or not.

Cheers,
Mac

Cheers Mac

 

[gf0012-aust]

Interesting indeed. Question why give the k-2 air to air (interception?) capability if we don't have a ACW?

RNZAF Orions don't just have an ASW role, like all ex cold war Orions they have shifted to an INT primary role over an ASW role.

In effect, the strength of the Orion lies in its ability to be a track manager and an extension of the operating picture.

even in their current state, they provide a battlespace management role and a clear extension of the NZDEF sensor footprint.

 

[Gibbo]

I don't know if this link is any help re. P3s?

New Zealand AF Projects Start To Show Progress - Defense News

Interesting to note the reference to the air to air capability of the radar.

Cheers,
Mac

Could it perhaps be that the radar's air-to-air capability is just a 'bonus' that the radar happens to also provide, rather than a specific NZDF requirement!?!

I should imagine it'll be used largely for P3 crews to decide when the heat's too much & it's time to get the hell out of the area they're in! :flaming

 

[dave_kiwi]

Re ASW in the P3s ... it would be naive to think NOTHING has been done.
You need to dig / read a fair bit, but from what I can gather, in-house DSP work was done to enhance some of the functionality of the received "signals". I am sure other "local in house" enhancements have been carried out over the years as well -- the issue really is that the underlying equipment is still / or was , part of the original P3-B fit and the in-ability to upgrade this equipment is really the bone of contention.

MAD is still fitted - and even the APS 134 - Rigel fitted Radar - had comparable or better performance than the P3-C radar fitted at the time. Don't write off the ASW capability - yes its old, and yes its way over due for an "upgrade", but its still there.

Re Fincastle -- guess with the RAF scrapping the Nimrods, it will now be Australia / Canada / New Zealand competition .....

 

[ngatimozart]

Re Fincastle -- guess with the RAF scrapping the Nimrods, it will now be Australia / Canada / New Zealand competition .....

UK MOD reckon they can use rotary wing assets to cover gap left by Nimrod scrapping. So maybe they enter that in Fincastle.

 

[dave_kiwi]

UK MOD reckon they can use rotary wing assets to cover gap left by Nimrod scrapping. So maybe they enter that in Fincastle.

HAHAHA - maybe RNZAF should "sub-contract" to the RAF -- it would pay for the upgrades, enhance the defense ties etc .....

There was a briefing paper on the 5 Sqn Assn. Website (New Page 3) - that detailed the P3-K2 update. Sure there was mention of LINK 16 being fitted, and by extension LINK 12 was already fitted. Unfortunately it's not there any more.

Looking through the scrapbook section, I see even the RAN's "mighty' Collins haven't completely avoided been spotted by the P3s .... though of course an exercise is just that.