Do Empires fall only due to stupidity??

TheBlurryOne

New Member
Wasn't entirely sure as to where i should place this post but this will have to do. I was thinking earlier that quite a number of empires have died out, fizzled up or gone under with a major contributing factor being simple stupidity. I thought about the Axis picking too many fights, about the British inciting the American Indians (which lead to Pontiac, which i believe was a major kick for Independence in the colonies). The USSR ignoring the fact that the occupation of Afghanistan coupled with insane military spending was probably going to be bad in the long run. Plus the added bonus of Stalin-ism. Now that i think of it WW1 was partly due to Germany's lovely little no-questions-asked military alliance, which was put in place solely so that Germany could show off its lovely military muscles.
So, i would be interested to know if I've been led completely astray. What other examples are there of this happening(if any)? Do all good things in history come to an end due to stupidity? After all I'd suggest that total British Naval Supremacy was lost due to stupidity...

TheBlurryOne
 

Feros Ferio

New Member
Wasn't entirely sure as to where i should place this post but this will have to do. I was thinking earlier that quite a number of empires have died out, fizzled up or gone under with a major contributing factor being simple stupidity. I thought about the Axis picking too many fights, about the British inciting the American Indians (which lead to Pontiac, which i believe was a major kick for Independence in the colonies). The USSR ignoring the fact that the occupation of Afghanistan coupled with insane military spending was probably going to be bad in the long run. Plus the added bonus of Stalin-ism. Now that i think of it WW1 was partly due to Germany's lovely little no-questions-asked military alliance, which was put in place solely so that Germany could show off its lovely military muscles.
So, i would be interested to know if I've been led completely astray. What other examples are there of this happening(if any)? Do all good things in history come to an end due to stupidity? After all I'd suggest that total British Naval Supremacy was lost due to stupidity...

TheBlurryOne
The loss of power is a complicated thing, and the term "stupid" is very broad. What causes great powers to rise and fall varies greatly from one case to the next. So can you refine your question just a little? I.E. What "stupidity" do you specifically refer to when speaking of the decline of British naval supremacy?
 

rip

New Member
The loss of power is a complicated thing, and the term "stupid" is very broad. What causes great powers to rise and fall varies greatly from one case to the next. So can you refine your question just a little? I.E. What "stupidity" do you specifically refer to when speaking of the decline of British naval supremacy?
The greatest cause of an empires to fail is that (for whatever reason) they fail to adapt to a changing world. A world that might have changed in part, as a resuilt, from their own success. No matter how great were your past successes, how pure is your heart, how comfortably you are in your current situation, the world around you continues to change. And as we see around us now, it changes at an ever faster rate. Empires are like living things and like all living things are subject to the laws of evolution. Very little that stands still survives.
 

Sampanviking

Banned Member
Empires tend to fail because the cost of maintaining Empire becomes greater than the value derived by Empire, which results in of the Power Base sinking into a Sea of Debt.

Once the Power of the Centre is compromised Internal factions and external enemies usually finish of the corpse very quickly.
 

rip

New Member
Empires tend to fail because the cost of maintaining Empire becomes greater than the value derived by Empire, which results in of the Power Base sinking into a Sea of Debt.

Once the Power of the Centre is compromised Internal factions and external enemies usually finish of the corpse very quickly.
That depends entirely on the economic model from which you build your empire around. It is true that the Colonial system built by the European powers before World War One was an economic drag upon them long before those empires collapsed. But if you study your history, those economic systems were built around the maintenance of monopolies in trade, manufacturing, and the supply of raw materials that required the subservience of the best interest of the colony to that of the “mother country”. Such systems are less efficient than ones that allow the most efficiently employment of capital, be it material, financial, and human. Systems that did not have such encumberments fared much better because they had more freedom to continually adapt.

If those empires would have pursued a more efficient as well as egalitarian model some of them might have survived even until today.
 

Feros Ferio

New Member
If those empires would have pursued a more efficient as well as egalitarian model some of them might have survived even until today.

I agree with you, in that I feel if they had figured out a more efficient economic system, some of the more recent empires (eg. The British Empire) may have survived much longer (possibly even until today). However, is it possible to have an empire, and at the same time, have it be egalitarian? My first thought is that this wouldn't work as the nature of empire implies some sort of dominance. :confused:
 

rip

New Member
I agree with you, in that I feel if they had figured out a more efficient economic system, some of the more recent empires (eg. The British Empire) may have survived much longer (possibly even until today). However, is it possible to have an empire, and at the same time, have it be egalitarian? My first thought is that this wouldn't work as the nature of empire implies some sort of dominance. :confused:
That is a good question; does an empire by necessity require the heavy and frequent use of coercion to sustain their empire? If you look at the most violent of empires the answer is yes. If an empire is forged primarily by the pursuit of violence and plunder (negative values) then it will be short lived but if the empire is built around other ideas (positive values) then it is possible that it could be held together over time and distance by ideas and mutual benefits that come from various kinds of sustainable cooperation.

Cooperation is the very things that leads to the most valuable asset within any society, a state of mutual trust and respect. The British Empire almost made that transition from one form to another. Far closer than most people today would think. Of course the greatest problem for that attainment, both for the British Empire and the West in general, was that it did not overcome the trust destroying twin problems of racism and nationalism.

First nationalism, most forms of nationalism are by their nature exclusive that is they define themselves as what they are not (they are not and could not never be one of THEM). The other kind is rarer, that kind is an inclusive form of nationalism that links to an idea or vision (sometimes connected to a religion and sometimes not), that is provides a pathway that allows new entrants to join in and to be fully included with in “the empire” including, most importantly at least as a possibility, of becoming one of its elites.

Racism is universal to all forms of life and not just to human beings. It is only by education based upon a firm moral set of principles that this obstacle to human progress can be overcome in real life. But first you have to come to the realization that it is in fact a problem and that it is not an advantage that can be used for your own benefit, if it is ever to be overcome at all.

The lost opportunities of the British and their Empire and how it could have changed the world even more beneficially than it did is a topic for another place. But its decline was not preordained and if it wasn’t for WW I it might have had the time and the grace to transform itself from an empire once based upon plunder to a successful confederation of equals where Britain would have still have a very prominent and recognize role much less being safer and secure
 

Sampanviking

Banned Member
The underlying reason for the failure of the British Empire (and indeed most others) is that the very structure of Empire was built to meet the needs of the day when it was being carved. If failed because after it was established and institutionalised, the world changed and changed in ways which the the structure of Empire was unable to adapt to.

In the dark ages Empire was simply the greatness that could be achieved by a single leader - ie a Knut or Charlemagne and these Empires invariably disintegrated with the death of its founder.

It suggests to me in more recent history, that there is a fundamental mismatch between the needs of Empire and the needs of The Nation State that will always cause the collapse of one or the other. To date this has to my knowledge always led to the collapse of Empire and retreat to the founding nation. It would be interesting to see what it would mean in a modern setting if Empire was preserved at the expense of the identity of the nation state.
 

rip

New Member
If you were taking a look at things from a general perspective and taking into account even a fraction of the empires that have existed on the planet, yes, technically they do collapse due to their own stupidity. Although a better way to phrase it would be that they collapse upon themselves.

A well developed empire with a reasonable military force could withstand a huge amount of direct assault towards them (if of course they stayed on the defensive in their own territory).

What you're asking is trying to combine two aspects of a complicated situation together, the political and military side of a nation and I think as most of understand it, those two don't exactly go hand in hand.

Making it into a theoretical scenario of the classic assassination in the classic empire. Looking at it from this side, the political side will collapse on itself simply because of greed and stupidity. While the political powers fight for control, the military is most likely being neglected from command or having several figures giving them conflicting orders. As the military is in disarray, the opposing military force has the opportunity to walk right in because of the lack of a centralized command.

In the case that a predecessor had been determined by the previous ruler, that couldn't exactly be considered a stupid ruling... lol
The term empire it seems has different meaning to different people. So let us indulge ourselves if we may in a little history lesson by examining the very first great empire that ever existed in the world “The Persian Empire” and why its rise changed the rules for all later empires and human civilizations. Before “The Persian Empire” wars and conquest were common enough and the results were usually all the same, a political power defeated one of its rival’s then tock possession of its lands and killed, ran off or enslaved its people. That was the way of the world for thousands of years and there was no other. Victory meant life and defeat meant total destruction.

What was the difference from the other forms of conquest in the Persian kind approach to conquest and empire building than all that went before it? When they conquered some small kingdom, they did not kill or enslave its people but in fact kept most of the society intact and in doing so preserving that society’s skils and resources and not devastating them. This included letting them keep much of their pervious local leadership intact (thou now dependent upon the Persian king for their privileged position), it let them keep the local Gods and customs, and a fair amount of local control in their affairs.

There were very real benefits to this subservient arrangement which might be obvious at first. Just some of those benefits were that the conquered kingdom, now as part of an empire usual had a far more secure space to live within, even from its historical emeries which before they were constantly at war with, there was a great decrease in the resources needed for defense and a vast increase in trade. This made even the conquered lands more prosperous, safer, and connected to the wider world. Instead of losing everything, possibly including their life, they gained a better life and the empire held together longer and over greater distances than any before it.

When Alexander The Great set out to conquer the world, he used the “Persian modal of kingship” as his guide. Even from this earliest example we can begin to see what elements that are required to build and sustain an empire.

But a more intriguing question is what constitutes an empire in today's world? What are its elements, what are its methods of conquest and what are the tools of which can hold it together?
 

Doomownage94

New Member
I think in the long run, it's not stupidity, but disunity (if you want to be general in every sense) that causes the eventuall downfall of an empire. Clausewitz believed the reasons for failure were not solely because of the strength of an enemy (literal, conventional strenth--not trying to be abstract lol) but because of unfortunate circumstances that eventually bring morale down so low as to abolish the unity that once was.

Sun Tzu believed that certain factors considered determine the outcome of a victory. He even stated that one can win 100 battles without danger if he adhered to his maxims. We now know that the reasons for defeat were not because of a superiority that was always there, but because of a superiority not considered.

Both strongly believed that an intelligent, crafty and intuitive leader will never lose. This brings up the question; "Then why did they?" The Mongols had the largest empire in the world with a strategy of conquest incomparable in terms of speed and logistical efficiency (5 horses per man and a diet of horse milk and blood and anything plundered lol). Yet they still lost. The Romans had a very organized and disciplined imperial army with a standard of reward and punishment that made for the most prestigious fighting force at the time. To answer your question, unfortunate circumstances--be they political, societal or military--somehow disunited the established structure of order they had going and eventually abolished the empire. So to put into generalized words that don't consider the factors of defeat themselves; yes, they fell only due to stupidity. :)
 

rip

New Member
I think in the long run, it's not stupidity, but disunity (if you want to be general in every sense) that causes the eventuall downfall of an empire. Clausewitz believed the reasons for failure were not solely because of the strength of an enemy (literal, conventional strenth--not trying to be abstract lol) but because of unfortunate circumstances that eventually bring morale down so low as to abolish the unity that once was.

Sun Tzu believed that certain factors considered determine the outcome of a victory. He even stated that one can win 100 battles without danger if he adhered to his maxims. We now know that the reasons for defeat were not because of a superiority that was always there, but because of a superiority not considered.

Both strongly believed that an intelligent, crafty and intuitive leader will never lose. This brings up the question; "Then why did they?" The Mongols had the largest empire in the world with a strategy of conquest incomparable in terms of speed and logistical efficiency (5 horses per man and a diet of horse milk and blood and anything plundered lol). Yet they still lost. The Romans had a very organized and disciplined imperial army with a standard of reward and punishment that made for the most prestigious fighting force at the time. To answer your question, unfortunate circumstances--be they political, societal or military--somehow disunited the established structure of order they had going and eventually abolished the empire. So to put into generalized words that don't consider the factors of defeat themselves; yes, they fell only due to stupidity. :)
No offence intended but I think you are way too wrapped up in the idea that military power defines a country, civilization or empire and determines its quality, durability, and ability to persist through time. The major element of long term success of any socity is how well it function and how beneficial it is to its people? In the end a governing entity’s military power is but a reflection of the political originations’ internal strength. There are numerous examples where a country, civilization or empire have suffered disastrous military defects and yet survived, rebuilt, and then overcome because of its internal strength (its ideas, it’s since of cohesion, the bounds of mutual trust, and a sound economic system that was still relevant and functional.
 
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Doomownage94

New Member
:eek:hwell
No offence intended but I think you are way too wrapped up in the idea that military power defines a country, civilization or empire and determines its quality, durability, and ability to persist through time. The major element of long term success of any socity is how well it function and how beneficial it is to its people? In the end a governing entity’s military power is but a reflection of the political originations’ internal strength. There are numerous examples where a country, civilization or empire have suffered disastrous military defects and yet survived, rebuilt, and then overcome because of its internal strength (its ideas, it’s since of cohesion, the bounds of mutual trust, and a sound economic system that was still relevant and functional.
Well, I guess I emphazised too much on the military capabilites and I contradicted myself at the end. I am actually saying the same thing you are--you said a united society with bounds of mutual trust is able to survive despite disastrous military victory. I said a disunited society, combined with unfortunate circumstances, will not despite huge military might. I apologize if I was unclear or if I emphazised too much on military force. I typed that minutes before class lol.

This goes way beyond the topic of defense, but if you want to look into the aspects of society in a much more technical way I recommend reading Talcott Parsons.

The AGIL paradigm, developed by Parsons according to content from Max Weber, really shows a much more societal scheme of potential problems especially if on the topic of Empires--one of the least abstract structures of society.

(I think I may have broken the forum rules already. If so... sorry) :eek:hwell
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
What is an Empire ?

Do USofA can be catagorize as Empire ?? In my oppinion yes she can. Eventhough US do not have Emperor or authoriterian regime, but she behave as Empire. In short Empire it self based on idea.

China is the longgest running Empire the human civilizations ever know. Even the Monggols (with Yuan Dynasty) and Manchus (with Ching Dynasty) conquered China, in the end in my oppinion China conquered them since by the end Yuan and Ching were just another Imperial Dynasty on China long history.
They don't have Emperor know, but the Nationalist (Guomintang) and present Communist (Gouchandang) were and are behaving just like another Imperial Dynasty before.

China Imperial dynastic can withstand time since their basic ancient idea 'confucianism' if we can call it, is still being used today. China can absorb theit conquerer on that basic idea.

Empires fall when their basic idea as their foundations can not be sell anymore toward their populations or their conquered populations. Talking about Empire is not just about the prowness of their Military and Economics, but also about what's the bond of that Empire.

How long can US as the strongest Empire in the faced of this planet presently can survive ? It's much depend how strong her basic Idea can bond her populations or her satelites if we can call it.

Well that's just my thinking ;)
 

rip

New Member
What is an Empire ?

Do USofA can be catagorize as Empire ?? In my oppinion yes she can. Eventhough US do not have Emperor or authoriterian regime, but she behave as Empire. In short Empire it self based on idea.

China is the longgest running Empire the human civilizations ever know. Even the Monggols (with Yuan Dynasty) and Manchus (with Ching Dynasty) conquered China, in the end in my oppinion China conquered them since by the end Yuan and Ching were just another Imperial Dynasty on China long history.
They don't have Emperor know, but the Nationalist (Guomintang) and present Communist (Gouchandang) were and are behaving just like another Imperial Dynasty before.

China Imperial dynastic can withstand time since their basic ancient idea 'confucianism' if we can call it, is still being used today. China can absorb theit conquerer on that basic idea.

Empires fall when their basic idea as their foundations can not be sell anymore toward their populations or their conquered populations. Talking about Empire is not just about the prowness of their Military and Economics, but also about what's the bond of that Empire.

How long can US as the strongest Empire in the faced of this planet presently can survive ? It's much depend how strong her basic Idea can bond her populations or her satelites if we can call it.

Well that's just my thinking ;)
You propose many interesting questions some of which I will try to answer within my admittedly, vary limited ability. Certainly Empires like all social intuitions have changed with time. What was possible of an empire and in fact defined it in the year one-thousand BC was not possible in the year one. And what was possible of an Empire in the year one was not possible in the year one-thousand AD. So looking at the older forms of empire can confuse us because the very idea of Empire is not a stable one but has changed with the human condition. And since Empires are primarily based upon ideas, as you have already pointed out, do they always have, to then have, corresponding political borders to validate their existence and define them?

I agree with you that the Chinese did conquer the Mongol’s and the Manchu’s culturally (as exhibited in the fact that they later tried to be to be “more Chinese than the Chinese” after their contact) so in a very real way the Chinese did prevail in the end over their conquers. Why? Because the Chinese culture had more to offer the mind, the soul, and the heart than their own cultures had to offer in its place. This of course doesn’t address how these primitive and violent people were able to overcome a civilization far more advanced and in many way more successful than their own. But that is a conversation for another day.

Furthermore I completely agree with you, all real and persistent empires are based upon ideas more than they are of mere human personalities. Ideas which persist beyond the life times of their creators, in both time and distance. So in this regard it is true that America dose have an empire of its own but it is not an empire based upon the domination of someone else even though it is sometime portrayed as such.

The America Empire exists where ever the ideas and ideals that America is based upon, can freely compete against and interact with any other people's ideas and ideals. If you trully believe in the intrinsic power and utility of your ideas and that they are just as good for other people as they have been for you, then you do not need to use any form of the power or force to promote them. You are also not afraid of other peoples’ ideas to somehow corrupt them. Please note two things at this point, first I said free to compete, I did not say they must or have to dominate and second, I didn’t say that America and it values could not evolve and improve and benifite form that very same competition within the greater marketplace of ideas.

Since people profit much more from cooperation than they do from conflict, isn’t it much smarter to get that cooperation through other means than through conflict? Think of all the effort it takes to dominate someone that doesn’t want to be dominated and even if you succeed, they will resent it. If you can get just as much cooperation and or perhaps even more benefit, by treating them equitably isn’t that a smarter course to follow if you want to prosper?

We believe that our ideas and ideals will allow such cooperation to exist in the world, without everybody having to be all just alike. Are we wrong? Time will tell.

As to the question can the American Empire Survive? Only if we continue to improve and adapt to an ever changing world. A world that we have already played a part in changing, the process has no end. If we are to continue to prosper we must do exactly the same things that other people must do and not take too much comfort from our past successes but to continue to evolve.
 

mctarmac

New Member
As to the question can the American Empire Survive? Only if we continue to improve and adapt to an ever changing world. A world that we have already played a part in changing, the process has no end. If we are to continue to prosper we must do exactly the same things that other people must do and not take too much comfort from our past successes but to continue to evolve.

Stupidity may not be the right word to describe the fall of Empires. Surely socio-economic models play a role, as does military fatigue (e.g. Sparta after the Battle of Leuctra and the British after WWII.) Primarily however, hegemons of the past have failed to transcend the cyclical nature of an international system that was dominated by Realism.

The Roman Empire stands out amongst its peers by being one of the few that attempted to expand "empire" along liberal lines and not just 'we have the biggest club'. Rome's substantial reserves of soft power (rule of law, offer of citizenship, stable political system) allowed it to become not just a Roman Empire, but anyones Empire if they so wished to join, thus fostering mutual interest in its longevity.

By contrast other Empires (especially the British) have sought to simply maintain Empire through their military dominance ad infinitum, a proposition that is completely unstable. The world is simply much too large to dominate and larger states will eventually become counter balanced by other rising powers with their own national interests.

This is where the brilliance of America's long term strategy has shone brightly. Finding them selves 'atop the dog pile' as it were after WWII, instead of squandering their power on conquest and expansion, America invested its prestige in creating a liberal international order, composed of rules, not the whim of an Empire, (UN, WTO, IMF).
Some where people were smart enough to realize that States will always rise and fall despite their current relative levels of power. As such the USA created a system that would treat all states equally despite their position on the relative scale of power.

Such an international system, based on rules and constructed norms, deeply constrains rising powers from becoming revisionist powers. It also facilitates the exchange of free trade, ideas and culture to the point that mutual interest binds all parties towards peaceful outcomes.

For example, Sino-US relations, the idea that these two powers (one the dominant hegemon, and the other a rising somewhat revisionist power) would come to blows is near preposterous. China has become what it is by participating in the western liberal international order, their sole claim to domestic legitimacy is satisfactory economic management which is only possible because of their role in an international political economy which is conditioned on them being a responsible stake holder.

In effect, the United States was the last superpower/hegemon, the system that will be left behind has bound all nation states together in a web of interdependence, where the gains of revisionism are outweighed by the gains accrued through continued peaceful interaction.

Well played I must say.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Stupidity may not be the right word to describe the fall of Empires. Surely socio-economic models play a role, as does military fatigue (e.g. Sparta after the Battle of Leuctra and the British after WWII.) Primarily however, hegemons of the past have failed to transcend the cyclical nature of an international system that was dominated by Realism.

The Roman Empire stands out amongst its peers by being one of the few that attempted to expand "empire" along liberal lines and not just 'we have the biggest club'. Rome's substantial reserves of soft power (rule of law, offer of citizenship, stable political system) allowed it to become not just a Roman Empire, but anyones Empire if they so wished to join, thus fostering mutual interest in its longevity.

By contrast other Empires (especially the British) have sought to simply maintain Empire through their military dominance ad infinitum, a proposition that is completely unstable. The world is simply much too large to dominate and larger states will eventually become counter balanced by other rising powers with their own national interests.

This is where the brilliance of America's long term strategy has shone brightly. Finding them selves 'atop the dog pile' as it were after WWII, instead of squandering their power on conquest and expansion, America invested its prestige in creating a liberal international order, composed of rules, not the whim of an Empire, (UN, WTO, IMF).
Some where people were smart enough to realize that States will always rise and fall despite their current relative levels of power. As such the USA created a system that would treat all states equally despite their position on the relative scale of power.

Such an international system, based on rules and constructed norms, deeply constrains rising powers from becoming revisionist powers. It also facilitates the exchange of free trade, ideas and culture to the point that mutual interest binds all parties towards peaceful outcomes.

For example, Sino-US relations, the idea that these two powers (one the dominant hegemon, and the other a rising somewhat revisionist power) would come to blows is near preposterous. China has become what it is by participating in the western liberal international order, their sole claim to domestic legitimacy is satisfactory economic management which is only possible because of their role in an international political economy which is conditioned on them being a responsible stake holder.

In effect, the United States was the last superpower/hegemon, the system that will be left behind has bound all nation states together in a web of interdependence, where the gains of revisionism are outweighed by the gains accrued through continued peaceful interaction.

Well played I must say.
The British Empire's expansion was driven by trade protected by the RN, the biggest spike being immediately after the Napoleonic War. It was never one of pure military dominance or expansion.

The pride of Empire, the Raj was run as a private enterprise by the British East India Company until the mutiny of 1857 (regular army took over), basically they were the original PMC (forerunners of Blackwater / Armor Group).

The Industrial Revolution drove the expansion, UK mills needed overseas raw materials hence entrepreneurs struck out to establish trading posts, which when threatened were protected by gunboat diplomacy and eventual forced seizure (Hong Kong post Opium War)

The British Empire didn't collapse overnight it retreated and became the Commonwealth. The UK was bankrupt post WWII and the colonies demanded self determination.

Reference America's Empire, the countries decline will be marked by an ideological change elsewhere. The concept of western democracy being superior may be usurped by the idea of benevolent autocracies. The Chinese model of tightly controlled government, which allows limited freedom under a micro-managed system may end up be the favoured approach by those nations looking for a rapid economic expansion, which both satisfies the masses and allows for stable growth. The relative decline of the west and the growing economic success of the east may sour the American dream, nations may start lookong for other models of governance and cultural influence.
 

mctarmac

New Member
The British Empire's expansion was driven by trade protected by the RN, the biggest spike being immediately after the Napoleonic War. It was never one of pure military dominance or expansion.

The pride of Empire, the Raj was run as a private enterprise by the British East India Company until the mutiny of 1857 (regular army took over), basically they were the original PMC (forerunners of Blackwater / Armor Group).

The Industrial Revolution drove the expansion, UK mills needed overseas raw materials hence entrepreneurs struck out to establish trading posts, which when threatened were protected by gunboat diplomacy and eventual forced seizure (Hong Kong post Opium War)

The British Empire didn't collapse overnight it retreated and became the Commonwealth. The UK was bankrupt post WWII and the colonies demanded self determination.

Reference America's Empire, the countries decline will be marked by an ideological change elsewhere. The concept of western democracy being superior may be usurped by the idea of benevolent autocracies. The Chinese model of tightly controlled government, which allows limited freedom under a micro-managed system may end up be the favoured approach by those nations looking for a rapid economic expansion, which both satisfies the masses and allows for stable growth. The relative decline of the west and the growing economic success of the east may sour the American dream, nations may start lookong for other models of governance and cultural influence.

Hmm, some confusing sentiments. Again its not as if the Indian subcontinent 'invited' the British, far from it, and their rule was maintained not by offering citizenship or enticing them with the wonderful benefits of western civilization, but by military force, thus the revolt. To characterize gunboat diplomacy as a response to "threatened" trading outposts is also a bit strange. The Chinese demanding that you stop importing Opium is hardly "threatening" yet again the outcome was seizure and military dominance, (Macau, Hong Kong.)

Quite frankly the British Empire, at least in Asia, did collapse overnight. The Japanese swept the British from Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaya over a matter of weeks. British power and prestige in Asia was irrevocably damaged, especially in a region known for prestige and face. This was not a matter of money, the British had been shown to be less than invincible and in a system of Empire of Core and Client states this was a death blow. To say the UK was bankrupt does not preclude their military fatigue/defeat, in fact their bankruptcy was a direct result of fighting wars against revisionist powers (The Axis Powers.) If you can point to the UK attempting to create international institutions to safeguard their power at a later date then by all means show me.

To argue that America will eventually decline (in a relative sense) misses the point. Such cycles are inevitable. This is why the liberal international order was created, China is a member of the UN, IMF, WTO and benefits immensely from this arrangements, they are in fact the sole reason China is able to modernize as it is (access to the global economy.) The more that China (or other revisionist powers) partake in the system, the more bound to it they become eventually being molded into 'responsible stakeholders.'

Realism as such, while being a powerful undercurrent, is sharing space with a growing 'community' of nation states that are bound together in a growing web of interdependence. Do you not see what the U.S has done? It has escaped the inevitable cycle of 'Empire' by creating a system that treats all nations as equal despite relative hard power discrepancies.

To argue that perhaps Chinas socio-economic model presents an alternative is a flawed analysis.

a) Chinas recent growth and prosperity are the result of moving away from command and control autocracy and towards liberalism, not the other way around, this recent growth is also contingent on them partaking in a liberal international order.

b) From the perspective of economic systems the Chinese are in their infancy, a command control "micro management" system can work well when engaged in rapid industrialization, but thats all it is so far , 'playing catch up,' low value added manufacturing (the Chinese add $2 to every ipod) will only get you so far and the Chinese are well aware of this. As the economy matures, growing middle class, and the division + specialization of labor increases, micro management will encounter the usual deficits that have been seen in these discredited systems time and time again.

c) By drawing China into the global economy, China has been forced to 'open up' to a degree. While soft power analysis are flimsy, the power of culture and interdependence is noticeable. To the degree that modernizing, and becoming more 'western' seem one and the same thing. The similarities between Shanghai and New York these days is startling, as is the uniformly similar fashion of citizens within. Such is the nature of this open and free global exchange that people are no longer content with conditions within their own domestic borders, especially within those borders where populations are repressed.

The Chinese leadership is painfully aware of all of the above and no where will you find them saying that Democracy will never come to China, they are simply concerned with managing the transition across an incredibly large fracticious land mass.

The question is why would anyone attempt to re-model the global system when they benefit immensely from said system? Barring global economic catastrophe, it is simply not in their interest to 'dethrone' the US and the liberal international order.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Hmm, some confusing sentiments. Again its not as if the Indian subcontinent 'invited' the British, far from it, and their rule was maintained not by offering citizenship or enticing them with the wonderful benefits of western civilization, but by military force, thus the revolt. To characterize gunboat diplomacy as a response to "threatened" trading outposts is also a bit strange. The Chinese demanding that you stop importing Opium is hardly "threatening" yet again the outcome was seizure and military dominance, (Macau, Hong Kong.)

Quite frankly the British Empire, at least in Asia, did collapse overnight. The Japanese swept the British from Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaya over a matter of weeks. British power and prestige in Asia was irrevocably damaged, especially in a region known for prestige and face. This was not a matter of money, the British had been shown to be less than invincible and in a system of Empire of Core and Client states this was a death blow. To say the UK was bankrupt does not preclude their military fatigue/defeat, in fact their bankruptcy was a direct result of fighting wars against revisionist powers (The Axis Powers.) If you can point to the UK attempting to create international institutions to safeguard their power at a later date then by all means show me.

To argue that America will eventually decline (in a relative sense) misses the point. Such cycles are inevitable. This is why the liberal international order was created, China is a member of the UN, IMF, WTO and benefits immensely from this arrangements, they are in fact the sole reason China is able to modernize as it is (access to the global economy.) The more that China (or other revisionist powers) partake in the system, the more bound to it they become eventually being molded into 'responsible stakeholders.'

Realism as such, while being a powerful undercurrent, is sharing space with a growing 'community' of nation states that are bound together in a growing web of interdependence. Do you not see what the U.S has done? It has escaped the inevitable cycle of 'Empire' by creating a system that treats all nations as equal despite relative hard power discrepancies.

To argue that perhaps Chinas socio-economic model presents an alternative is a flawed analysis.

a) Chinas recent growth and prosperity are the result of moving away from command and control autocracy and towards liberalism, not the other way around, this recent growth is also contingent on them partaking in a liberal international order.

b) From the perspective of economic systems the Chinese are in their infancy, a command control "micro management" system can work well when engaged in rapid industrialization, but thats all it is so far , 'playing catch up,' low value added manufacturing (the Chinese add $2 to every ipod) will only get you so far and the Chinese are well aware of this. As the economy matures, growing middle class, and the division + specialization of labor increases, micro management will encounter the usual deficits that have been seen in these discredited systems time and time again.

c) By drawing China into the global economy, China has been forced to 'open up' to a degree. While soft power analysis are flimsy, the power of culture and interdependence is noticeable. To the degree that modernizing, and becoming more 'western' seem one and the same thing. The similarities between Shanghai and New York these days is startling, as is the uniformly similar fashion of citizens within. Such is the nature of this open and free global exchange that people are no longer content with conditions within their own domestic borders, especially within those borders where populations are repressed.

The Chinese leadership is painfully aware of all of the above and no where will you find them saying that Democracy will never come to China, they are simply concerned with managing the transition across an incredibly large fracticious land mass.

The question is why would anyone attempt to re-model the global system when they benefit immensely from said system? Barring global economic catastrophe, it is simply not in their interest to 'dethrone' the US and the liberal international order.
Japan was a militarized nation at the outbreak of the WWII. The success against the Colonial powers in Asia where largely against garrisons manned by policing units equipped with obsolete weapons, poor training, poor leadership and little if no armour. They also had the added advantage that Britain was fighting a two front war (Germany in France & Italy in North Africa).

Once Britian recovered and began it's own militarization it went on to inflict serious defeats on the Japanese, culminating in the battle of Imphal, which many historians consider it to be the single largest Japanese defeat of the war on land. After WWII Britain recovered HK & Singapore (Macau was a Portuguese colony) and there was no successful popular uprising against the British. The Malayan Emergency was a resounding defeat against the Communists, which led to Malayan independence on friendly terms, and HK remained British until 97 (I attended the handover party).

Britain's Empire declined in a relatively stable manner, it didn't suffer a Diem Bien Phu or Battle for Algeria moment. Most of the former colonies with the exception of Zimbabwe have remained friends and are now part of the Commonwealth. The UK still maintains strong relationships with most and regularly conducts overseas training with semipermanent training teams (Kenya, Uganda, Canada). Also unlike many other empires (Roman, Hitler's Germany or Napoleon's France), it did not suffer a military collapse resulting in the sacking of its economic, political and idiological centre - London. The same can't be said for Rome, Constantinople, Berlin and Paris.

Expansion in India, and for that matter China, was driven by the need for trade/raw material access (Opium, Tea, Cotton etc.), it wasn't motivated by pure conquest. The British East India Company's arrival in India was during a period when the whole country was not united under a single ruler, but one run by various provincial leaders, some were open to trade with Britain, others weren't. I do fully accept the provincial leaders were under extreme duress to provide the Company with access, but it wasn't a Government coordinated invasion on grand scale. Even during the mutiny the majority of soldiers used to suppress the rebellious Sepoys where Indian sub-continent troops happy to serve, non were conscripted.

Post WWII all the colonial powers were burnt out, but Britain's withdrawal was not undertaken Dunkirk style. Economic coupled with diplomatic pressures (specifically from the US) made Empires obsolete.

The USA's hegemony has been driven by economic wealth, more money bigger R&D budget and more shinny weapons manned by an educated work force of volunteers. Their time at the top of the pile is coming to an end. The difference being the next superpower (China) will have the financial capacity to outstrip US military spending and unlike the Russian's will not bankrupt themselves trying to keep up with a star wars programme. May not happen in our lifetime, but it's definitely going to happen.
 
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