NZDF General discussion thread

mattyem

New Member
I think its about time someone balled up and made the D to send the NZLAV's into the operational theater. I have seen the Aussies on different news stories operating their LAVs in the GHAN with no apparent troubles (in saying that im not 100% sure on where in Afghan they are using them and to which role).
After talking to a few of the chaps through different rotations, they have all been of agreement in that there are many differing situations in which they considered that a LAV or similar would have proved to be of greater benefit than that of the Hilux's or Hummers that was on offer.
It is obvious though thatn in many situations that the PRT teams ore faced with, light maneuverable vehicles are the only option. It was surprising not to see this lack of this capacity more emphasized in the release of the latest white paper.
 

chis73

Active Member
Supporting Info from Defence Review released

Just a heads up people - the supporting info from the Defence Review is now available from the Ministry's website, including the much vaunted Value for Money review by Rod Deane (well, the non-classified version anyway). Should be fairly illuminating. The cynic in me says that it can't be all sweetness & light, given the release timing (a week before christmas). Maybe I've just seen too many episodes of Yes, Minister!

Chis73
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Just a heads up people - the supporting info from the Defence Review is now available from the Ministry's website, including the much vaunted Value for Money review by Rod Deane (well, the non-classified version anyway).
There's several documents and many hundreds and hundreds of pages there - I've been reading some over these hols ... and I've a few questions I'd like to ask when I get to the end etc. (Pitty there's alot of deleted info in the VfM review, including the ADF-NZDF arrangements and also esp. RNZAF (although it confirms Govt requirement for 4x new MPA aircraft @ $200M, except VfM itself suggests contracting out to Air NZ & in other areas) ...

In the meantime can anyone elaborate .... are there any differences in concepts between the contemporary CATG (Combined Arms Task Group be that light infantry or cav) and the previous (Cold War?) Brigade (3x infantry battalion) structure for deployments?

What I mean is, it's easier to understand that the CATG's are meant to be more sustainable and supportable for when on deployment ... so does that mean the previous Brigade concept was not sustainable - beyond a certain point in time - or supportable (or we were to draw more on allied i.e. US support systems)?

(I know 2+ battalions isn't sustainable after a period of time eg ET experience). So is the only difference "numbers" (company v battalion) or is it also doctrine etc?

It seems that the new CATG structure is "smarter" and allows smaller deployments which can more-or-less be sustained indefinitely, plus have a wider range of sustainable support systems meaning a lot less reliance on other friendly nations etc. Was this one of the requirements?
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There's several documents and many hundreds and hundreds of pages there - I've been reading some over these hols ... and I've a few questions I'd like to ask when I get to the end etc. (Pitty there's alot of deleted info in the VfM review, including the ADF-NZDF arrangements and also esp. RNZAF (although it confirms Govt requirement for 4x new MPA aircraft @ $200M, except VfM itself suggests contracting out to Air NZ & in other areas) ...

In the meantime can anyone elaborate .... are there any differences in concepts between the contemporary CATG (Combined Arms Task Group be that light infantry or cav) and the previous (Cold War?) Brigade (3x infantry battalion) structure for deployments?

What I mean is, it's easier to understand that the CATG's are meant to be more sustainable and supportable for when on deployment ... so does that mean the previous Brigade concept was not sustainable - beyond a certain point in time - or supportable (or we were to draw more on allied i.e. US support systems)?

(I know 2+ battalions isn't sustainable after a period of time eg ET experience). So is the only difference "numbers" (company v battalion) or is it also doctrine etc?

It seems that the new CATG structure is "smarter" and allows smaller deployments which can more-or-less be sustained indefinitely, plus have a wider range of sustainable support systems meaning a lot less reliance on other friendly nations etc. Was this one of the requirements?
Hi Reece,

The Brigade concept was unsupportable both in man power & finances, & every cut back we have faced since 1980's has forced us to cut our cloth better to the point where in the new year you will see a fundamental change in how the NZDF operates from mpov having read all the documentation so far if you are not in direct spt of a Cbt unit 1st line then your job or role will be civilianised in all three services.

TF have been unable to provide soldiers to 3/1 for a long time (20 yrs) now both in Cbt /Cbt spt & CSS, NZBATTs was the high point for TF but to be honest it took alot of hard work to get those soldiers up to standard to deploy hence the vfm report on there effectiveness watch this space the six TF Battalions will disappear next year those who can will be offered RF contracts & the rest will be released or shifted to youth life skills or specialist roles only retained.

Now CATG Lt ,
You cant look at them as only based around an Inf Coy, they could be based on HSS (2HSB Tsunami) 2 Log (Somalia) or a Lt Inf Coy they are adaptable to fit any need that a allied nation might be short of or what we can offer at that point of time. Tropic Twilight is a good example 2HSB lead with Hosp / Dental, Engr carpenters/ sparkies, & last but not least CSS.

CATG Cav,
Dont need to explain this one its based soley around a Coy gp in 1RNZIR, you hit the nail on the head the difference is numbers we can spt a Coy gp deployment within the budget currently there is no way we can spt a full Bn deployment with its full complement of spt now without a thirld RF Bn.

Your last question is correct to a point it is smaller & smarter but it will all ways be dependant or reliant on Host country spt classic example is BAF the PRT could not survive without the US forces looking after us or to be honest our CSS crew down there doing there best to get equipment by the good old fashioned kiwi way (If its not bolted down & you anit using it then its ours).

Not to sure if this helps. CD
 

Adzze

New Member
Could Niue be developed as a strategic NZDF base in the Pacific?

For an island nation with a huge physical area of maritime interest, huge distances to deploy and sustain potentially up to Battalion group level, and without the current fiscal wherewithall, but an ever increasing workload and range of tasks in the next 25 years, the future RNZN auxillary fleet has to do more than simply replenish and lift. We also need to have a commensurate degree of seabasing capability and strategic projection from the sea rather than on the sea.
Not specifically responding to MrC's quote above, but it and the growing chequebook diplomacy by new regional power(s) in the Pacific made me think of ways the NZDF and ADF could prevent erosion of Western influence and values in the region. Feel free to shoot the idea down or otherwise discuss the idea's potential...

What if, in the future the NZ government negotiated a deal with its Niue counterpart to develop and build facilities on the island to support a strategic base for the use of NZDF (and/or the ADF)?

Niue has a small population (<5000) and there have been various initiatives considered to preserve the sustainability of the community there. At present there are no port facilities to speak of (flat-bottomed vessels only), but there is an international airport and the island is handily-positioned within the local group of South Pacific island nations, being 1200km each from Fiji and the Cook Islands, around 600km from Samoa and Tonga, and about 1000km and 1800km from Tokelau and Tuvalu, respectively. Furthermore, Niue is a protectorate of NZ so its defence needs are NZ's responsibility.

If NZ/AUS had guaranteed access to a strategic location in the Central-South Pacific would this simplify logistics in the event of a local natural disaster scenario or international incident?
Similarly, if the instability and vulnerability of various island nations in the region continued or worsened over the next 20 years, my question is would it be a) feasible and b) worthwhile for the NZDF to operate a small combined NZDF base there, by:

* Forming a partnership with the Niuean gov't to build shared port facilities sufficient to accommodate Canterbury or a Canberra-class LHD, as well as the Cruise ships that typically visit (the latter are currently forced to anchor offshore I think; I would imagine that commercial use of port facilities could be used to offset some of the cost of its development?)

* Add hangars and Air Movements terminal etc to airport, extend existing landing strip if necessary

* Provide additional power generation to the island (wind turbine or solar, with diesel backup.

The base could be lightly staffed under normal circumstances, but rapidly scaled up as required. There are obvious benefits in terms of operating and patrolling radius for P3Ks and OPV/Canterbury/LWSV in terms of the location and "guaranteed access" in case things go pear-shaped in the region.
 
Hi Reece,

The Brigade concept was unsupportable both in man power & finances, & every cut back we have faced since 1980's has forced us to cut our cloth better to the point where in the new year you will see a fundamental change in how the NZDF operates from mpov having read all the documentation so far if you are not in direct spt of a Cbt unit 1st line then your job or role will be civilianised in all three services.

TF have been unable to provide soldiers to 3/1 for a long time (20 yrs) now both in Cbt /Cbt spt & CSS, NZBATTs was the high point for TF but to be honest it took alot of hard work to get those soldiers up to standard to deploy hence the vfm report on there effectiveness watch this space the six TF Battalions will disappear next year those who can will be offered RF contracts & the rest will be released or shifted to youth life skills or specialist roles only retained.

Now CATG Lt ,
You cant look at them as only based around an Inf Coy, they could be based on HSS (2HSB Tsunami) 2 Log (Somalia) or a Lt Inf Coy they are adaptable to fit any need that a allied nation might be short of or what we can offer at that point of time. Tropic Twilight is a good example 2HSB lead with Hosp / Dental, Engr carpenters/ sparkies, & last but not least CSS.

CATG Cav,
Dont need to explain this one its based soley around a Coy gp in 1RNZIR, you hit the nail on the head the difference is numbers we can spt a Coy gp deployment within the budget currently there is no way we can spt a full Bn deployment with its full complement of spt now without a thirld RF Bn.

Your last question is correct to a point it is smaller & smarter but it will all ways be dependant or reliant on Host country spt classic example is BAF the PRT could not survive without the US forces looking after us or to be honest our CSS crew down there doing there best to get equipment by the good old fashioned kiwi way (If its not bolted down & you anit using it then its ours).

Not to sure if this helps. CD
Hi CadreDave,

What your saying about the TF battalions worries me a bit. I'm TF now and understand what your saying about the predeployment training and so on but all the pep talks I've had sort of made it seem like that without an additional RF battalion being financed the Govt was looking to rely more on TF to make up the shortfall and increase recruitment for TF. Where have you heard this? I dont doubt you at all but is just abit of a turn around from what I've have been told previously. Who I have heard from though, it would be in there interests to take an optimistic viewpoint though.
Frankly I doubt alot of TF guys can take RF contracts. If they were going to do that, alot they would have already. And with the on hand strength of the Regular's you would have to right off any medium term response to a medium or high intensity conflict straight away. Say somehting like a large interstate or inter-power block war kicks off and you send all our regulars once they're all dead you've lost your institutional training capacity. No regenerative ability.
My understanding was that was what us TF guys were for. Any major war would be fought by terratorials initially as we're cheaper while some/all/afew Regulars sorted out the rest of the population/call up to keep up a supply of troops. Are you able to define specialist roles?
Is it the typical "specialist" set or are they going to include the shortfall areas aswell?
If your right this would cause a major shit fit and piss off alot of guys in the TF who would I guess just turn their back on the Army altogether. The govt instantly looses all that reserve manpower which they have economised back to an anorexic point anyway.
Out of curiosity are the RF battalions even up to strength at the moment? Because when I was RF that never happened as far as I can remember. I dont know how QAMR has faired over the years but I was told by a pretty proud ex tankie that they were sometimes lucky to get a full 3 troop platoon to start line.
Anyway cheers and I kind of hope your just speculating but suspect you know abit more than that.

Cheers
Shane
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
New CDF interviewed

New CDF interviewed - did a reasonably good job of getting the message across re-NZDF needing to be in Afghanistan to the reporter.

(Although reporter also did a puff piece with his ususal shades again of sublte character putdowns of military figures as being "boys own" types, although CDF seemed to be able to handle it and knock the ball back to the reporter quite well; and again not balancing Terrence O'Brian's commentry which has some valid viewpoints but tends to always be slanted against the traditional western position).

NZDF hits heavy weather | Stuff.co.nz

A better interview with Gen Petraeus in the same paper (diff. reporter) and good to see NZ's Afghanistan mission given some details and context, as it allows the public to see some facts on the good work of the SAS (as opposed to sometimes partisan critics getting their views aired viewed in same paper etc).

Afghanistan: worse before it gets better | Stuff.co.nz
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hi CadreDave,

What your saying about the TF battalions worries me a bit. I'm TF now and understand what your saying about the predeployment training and so on but all the pep talks I've had sort of made it seem like that without an additional RF battalion being financed the Govt was looking to rely more on TF to make up the shortfall and increase recruitment for TF. Where have you heard this? I dont doubt you at all but is just abit of a turn around from what I've have been told previously. Who I have heard from though, it would be in there interests to take an optimistic viewpoint though.
Frankly I doubt alot of TF guys can take RF contracts. If they were going to do that, alot they would have already. And with the on hand strength of the Regular's you would have to right off any medium term response to a medium or high intensity conflict straight away. Say somehting like a large interstate or inter-power block war kicks off and you send all our regulars once they're all dead you've lost your institutional training capacity. No regenerative ability.
My understanding was that was what us TF guys were for. Any major war would be fought by terratorials initially as we're cheaper while some/all/afew Regulars sorted out the rest of the population/call up to keep up a supply of troops. Are you able to define specialist roles?
Is it the typical "specialist" set or are they going to include the shortfall areas aswell?
If your right this would cause a major shit fit and piss off alot of guys in the TF who would I guess just turn their back on the Army altogether. The govt instantly looses all that reserve manpower which they have economised back to an anorexic point anyway.
Out of curiosity are the RF battalions even up to strength at the moment? Because when I was RF that never happened as far as I can remember. I dont know how QAMR has faired over the years but I was told by a pretty proud ex tankie that they were sometimes lucky to get a full 3 troop platoon to start line.
Anyway cheers and I kind of hope your just speculating but suspect you know abit more than that.

Cheers
Shane
Shane read the White paper & the Value for money report its all there in black & white $400 mil a year some thing has to give & at this stage its TF/ Trentham & Waiouru who will pay.

CD
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not specifically responding to MrC's quote above, but it and the growing chequebook diplomacy by new regional power(s) in the Pacific made me think of ways the NZDF and ADF could prevent erosion of Western influence and values in the region. Feel free to shoot the idea down or otherwise discuss the idea's potential...

What if, in the future the NZ government negotiated a deal with its Niue counterpart to develop and build facilities on the island to support a strategic base for the use of NZDF (and/or the ADF)?

Niue has a small population (<5000) and there have been various initiatives considered to preserve the sustainability of the community there. At present there are no port facilities to speak of (flat-bottomed vessels only), but there is an international airport and the island is handily-positioned within the local group of South Pacific island nations, being 1200km each from Fiji and the Cook Islands, around 600km from Samoa and Tonga, and about 1000km and 1800km from Tokelau and Tuvalu, respectively. Furthermore, Niue is a protectorate of NZ so its defence needs are NZ's responsibility.

If NZ/AUS had guaranteed access to a strategic location in the Central-South Pacific would this simplify logistics in the event of a local natural disaster scenario or international incident?
Similarly, if the instability and vulnerability of various island nations in the region continued or worsened over the next 20 years, my question is would it be a) feasible and b) worthwhile for the NZDF to operate a small combined NZDF base there, by:

* Forming a partnership with the Niuean gov't to build shared port facilities sufficient to accommodate Canterbury or a Canberra-class LHD, as well as the Cruise ships that typically visit (the latter are currently forced to anchor offshore I think; I would imagine that commercial use of port facilities could be used to offset some of the cost of its development?)

* Add hangars and Air Movements terminal etc to airport, extend existing landing strip if necessary

* Provide additional power generation to the island (wind turbine or solar, with diesel backup.

The base could be lightly staffed under normal circumstances, but rapidly scaled up as required. There are obvious benefits in terms of operating and patrolling radius for P3Ks and OPV/Canterbury/LWSV in terms of the location and "guaranteed access" in case things go pear-shaped in the region.
The problem with Niue is that the atoll that encircles the island reaches over 2.5kms from the shoreline – which in itself is mostly rocks and or cliff face. Thus to build a port facility that can manage 200m+ LHD's let alone visiting 250t IPV's is not feasible. An upgrade to the small wharf which is able to handle small barges and landing craft such as the CY's would be an option. The upshot of it all is that if we want to increase our presence in the South Pacific its a matter of tasking and providing for that tasking.

Access to operate from Niue is actually not guaranteed. Niue since 1976 has governed itself in free association with New Zealand. It is part of the “Realm of New Zealand” alongside the Cooks and Tokelau's at the Crown level – which is essentially the Governor General level, but it is not a puppet state of NZ controlled by those who inhabit the Beehive. The point is we cannot force them to do something they do not want to do. The Niuean's are a pretty independent lot other than for one Thursday in May – Budget Day. They have got upset many times over the heavy handedness of NZ Treasury officials telling them how to spend the money we give them.

The runway on Niue was extended out to 2300m by the NZ Government ten years ago so as to handle aircraft up B767 in size. The RNZAF B757 has made a couple of landings there in recent times with no problems and Orion's, C-130's have been visitors over the decades. What is lacking for improved air mobility ops from Niue is not enough hard standing areas and fuel storage facilities. Fixing that is doable and would allow for extended though still short term adhoc presence visits from the NZDF. However a permanent NZDF Base or presence in Niue is unforseeable.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
. That can be sorted out and paid for by NIWA who are in all likelihood going to take over the civilian requirements of Hydrographic Survey.

A point to note. NIWA are not responsible for the maintenance and issuing of nautical charts. That is the the domain of LINZ who are the agency responsible for all cartographic, terrestrial and nautical, data collection and dissemination in NZ and its territories plus the Pacific Ocean to the north and east of NZ and south to Antarctica. The RNZN Hydrographic Branch does some of the hydrographic surveying as a contract for LINZ. I think NIWA would like to get this contract because of the income stream, but that would take them away from their core mission which is environmental science not cartography.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This is the text of an email I sent to Wayne Mapp last November.

"I am ex services with total time of about 12 years spent in The RNZAF and the RNZNVR. I am writing with regard to the recent White Paper on Defence. I agree with most of the findings especially with regard to the expense of modern weapons systems, vis a vis strike aircraft for example. The Chinese want to buy the latest Russian Su34 and the Russians have said they will sell for nothing less than US$50 million per unit. That was a story on a US Defence news website last week. So that type of equipment is well and truly beyond our grasp.

But I strongly believe we do need 'teeth' in the sky to support our troops on the ground be it in Afghanistan or for peace keeping; and I realise we have to be very cost effective about it. I note that we are purchasing three extra Augusta Bell AB109 helicopters because they are so cheap. I also note that they will be armoured. I am Maori so I can get away with this. Why don't we do build ourselves a 'Maori' Light Attack Helicopter utilising the cost effectiveness of the AB 109, our own scientists, engineers technicians etc., and what we already have in the country? So we have to buy say, 10 AB 109,s over and above as well as armouring them, but it's a lot cheaper than buying dedicated attack helicopters because we don't need the ability to take on main battle tanks. The Australians have Tiger attack helicopters for that.

We have something like 15 A4K Skyhawks sitting at RNZAF Base Woodbourne which to all intents and purposes are basically scrap. But they have weapons systems on them that could be adapted for other aircraft. Each A4K has two 20mm aircraft automatic cannon. Also the weapons fit for each aircraft plus the AerMacchi's and the old Strikemasters have / had unguided rocket pods. The weapons guidance system from the A4K could be installed into a AB 109 with modifications. It is based on a F16 design but we don't need all the fancy stuff, just the basics- the gun sight.

To each armed AB 109, 1 x 20mm cannon could be mounted underneath the fuselage with the ammunition feed and stowage being in the cabin behind the pilots. A 20mm cannon will take out a LAV or similar vehicle. Alongside this 2 x.50cal machine guns are also mounted, with the same ammunition feed and stowage system. The reasoning for the .50 cal mounts is that not all targets are worth a 20mm shell and a 50.cal has a longer reach than a 7.62mm machine gun. Basically you can hit and kill a human target from 2 miles with a .50 cal (it would be a very extraordinary shot though - a snipers shot accuracy wise) and it goes through the sides of ships, trucks and other assorted items. (If the .50cal can't get it that's what the 20mm is for). It keeps you away from people who might have 7.62mm machine guns or assault rifles etc. The unguided rocket pods can be mounted on winglets attached to the fuselage of the aircraft. If needed a pintle or pivot mounted 7.62mm machine gun could be mounted in each door for use by door gunners. They can reload the 20mm cannon and .50 cal if needed. A FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) same as the Eagle Police helicopter is mounted for night time. The A4K's have AIM9 Sidewinder Air To Air missiles, which are very expensive, which could be mounted on helicopters or P3 Orions for example.

We basically take all the weapons systems from the A4Ks and reutilise them to give us a capability that we don't presently have. This will give us a relatively inexpensive Light Attack Helicopter capability that will provide the NZDF with more flexibility and it would also fit in nicely with the Australian capability. What we can't reutilise we buy off the shelf if we need to, but this project could be fully designed, built and deployed within New Zealand, because we have the skills and equipment here (apart from the 10 x AB 109 helicopters) to do this. What we end up with is a Kiwi version of the Mil24 Hind and that was the only thing that scared the Afghan mujaheddin the Soviet - Afghan war in the 1980's.

Kiwis have a great reputation for the acquirement (usually illegally) and outfitting of unorthodox (and mostly unauthorised) weapon systems in war time. This is just carrying on a tradition, albeit legally, and at the same time providing a needed asset and using Kiwi skills and know how. In this time of austerity we have to be prudent in how we utilise our resources, but I strongly believe that we also need to have 'teeth' in the sky and this could be a relatively economical way if achieving that."

This is the reply;

]"Thank you for your e-mail of 29 November in which you raise a proposal to acquire additional A109 helicopters and modify them to provide a New Zealand developed light attack helicopter.

The Defence White Paper 2010 set out the defence capabilities required to meet New Zealand's security needs over the coming 25 years. The tight fiscal outlook requires a Defence Force which is affordable now and into the future. Given the strategic outlook to 2035, acquisition of a light attack helicopter capability whether 'home grown' as you suggest, or 'off the shelf', is not a sustainable or affordable capability that is currently required.

Helicopter needs were carefully considered during the drafting process of the Defence White Paper 2010. Although the A109 could have a weapons growth option, the need to acquire and maintain a light attack helicopter was not identified as an immediate requirement in the Defence White Paper 2010. The additional three A109 helicopters mentioned in the White Paper are to supplement and maximise the utility of the initial
acquisition to provide an operationally deployable output, plus training.

Air weapon systems are expensive as they need to be reliable and accurate to minimise the risk of collateral damage. Arming modifications for the A109 would be very complex requiring aircraft structural analysis, airframe modification and integration of weapon systems to produce a viable capability.

Your proposal to develop a 'home grown' light attack helicopter from a standard A109 helicopter is beyond available NZDF personnel and funding resources to implement within New Zealand, without recourse to international expertise. Unfortunately, given the above and particularly the strategic outlook and fiscal constraints we face, I am unable to progress your proposal any further. Signed Wayne Mapp, Minister of Defence"


My opinion is that with the A4K's and the AerMacchi's being scrapped the weapons on them should be utilised instead of being dumped. It is a waste of resources and money. I disagree that we don't have the expertise here because we do both within the NZDF and in the civilian sector. It is a matter of lateral thinking beyond the square. IMHO this lack of close air support is very short sighted and an idea of a dedicated armed light helicopter would give our army a much needed flexibility and would also slot in with Australia. Another point that hasn't been bought up in any discussions on this forum is the lack of AAA in the Army apart from MAG58, C9 and .50cal. Although would the current 25mm cannon system fitted on the LAV have this capability?

Some contributors have mentioned previously of the RNZN either having a submarine or crewing an Australian submarine because the RAN has crewing difficulties. When I was in the RNZNVR 20 years ago the RNZN had difficulty crewing its own ships then and I do not think that has changed much since. I do know that in the case of HMNZS Pegasus, the RNZNVR Division in Christchurch, they were / are keeping senior rates on until they reached the age of 65 because of personnel shortages.

With regard to the RNZAF C130H replacement, IMHO the C130J option would be advisable until the A400M Grizzly is sorted out and then a A400M buy in the future. I have seen a photo of a RAF line up of a C17, C130J and a A400M prototype taken last year and the A400M looks to be not much smaller in size to the C17. If the RNZAF bought the A400M it would also need to look at a smaller twin engine transport like the C27 and the most logical aircraft choice would be to go along with the RAAF choice and maybe a joint purchase similar to the ANZAC Frigate deal.
 

jeffb

Member
Reading through some of this thread & some others has made me a little curious as to the current state of the ADF/NZDF relationship. These days is there really that much common ground between them? Its been a long time since the ANZACs were conceived and a lot has changed.

Both seem to be going in completely different directions, ADF focusing on Asia, NZDF focusing on the Pacific.

Procurement paths are heading in completely different directions and for the few things they do both have interests in you could almost argue the small amount the NZDF would buy would almost be more trouble than its worth to the ADF.

Given what we've heard about the ANZAC replacements so far I'd be surprised if the NZDF would be interested.

Is there really anything left in it for either country?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
My opinion is that with the A4K's and the AerMacchi's being scrapped the weapons on them should be utilised instead of being dumped. It is a waste of resources and money. I disagree that we don't have the expertise here because we do both within the NZDF and in the civilian sector. It is a matter of lateral thinking beyond the square. IMHO this lack of close air support is very short sighted and an idea of a dedicated armed light helicopter would give our army a much needed flexibility and would also slot in with Australia. Another point that hasn't been bought up in any discussions on this forum is the lack of AAA in the Army apart from MAG58, C9 and .50cal. Although would the current 25mm cannon system fitted on the LAV have this capability?

Some contributors have mentioned previously of the RNZN either having a submarine or crewing an Australian submarine because the RAN has crewing difficulties. When I was in the RNZNVR 20 years ago the RNZN had difficulty crewing its own ships then and I do not think that has changed much since. I do know that in the case of HMNZS Pegasus, the RNZNVR Division in Christchurch, they were / are keeping senior rates on until they reached the age of 65 because of personnel shortages.

With regard to the RNZAF C130H replacement, IMHO the C130J option would be advisable until the A400M Grizzly is sorted out and then a A400M buy in the future. I have seen a photo of a RAF line up of a C17, C130J and a A400M prototype taken last year and the A400M looks to be not much smaller in size to the C17. If the RNZAF bought the A400M it would also need to look at a smaller twin engine transport like the C27 and the most logical aircraft choice would be to go along with the RAAF choice and maybe a joint purchase similar to the ANZAC Frigate deal.
An interesting idea, and one I had not considered previously. Having said that, a few potential issues do spring to mind.

As I understand the idea, a 20mm taken from the wing structure of ex-RNZAF Skyhawk would be mounted in some fashion underneath the fuselage of an AB109, correct? This would presumably be a fixed mounting, as opposed to a trainable mounting like the 'chin' turrets found on dedicated attack or recon helicopters like the AH-1 Cobra, AH-64 Apache, or EC/AS 665 Tiger?

Several questions come to mind, which would need to be answered (or having tested) to determine whether or not this is feasible.

Firstly, some form of mounting or hardpoint would need to be created, along with the necessary structural and fuselage reinforcement, to which the 20mm cannon would be attached to.

Secondly, the airframe would need to be sufficiently reinforced at required areas for the cannon to be fired.

Third, is there sufficient space and clearance to allow one of the cannons to be fitted? Keeping in mind that the A109 has a retractable wheeled tricycle landing gear, there would need to be sufficient space for the forward landing wheel to deploy and retract without coming into contact with the muzzle. There would also need to be sufficient space for the cannon to be mounted outside the airframe, but still not exceed how far from the fuselage the landing gear extends.

Third, would there be sufficient weight to allow an ex-Skyhawk 20mm cannon and ammo hoppers to be fitted, along with the required hardpoint and structural reinforcement? Current armed military versions of the A109 have a max weapons load of ~600 kg, the Mk-12 20mm cannon has a weight of ~46kg, there would need to be likely need to be several hundred rounds @ ~10 rounds/kg.

Fourth, would an Mk-12 cannon even operate reliably from a helicopter? While pilots during Vietnam did appreciate having the gun on their aircraft, there were issues and complaints of the gun being unreliable and jamming, particularly after hard maneuvering. Due to the different vectors which a helicopter can operate in from a jet, as well as the potential vibration from the turbine, how well would the cannon even work, especialy given how old the guns are now?

Lastly (apart from a need to certify the aircraft as safe to fly...) is that some mechanism would be needed to aim the cannon accurately enough for the gun to be useful. Given that it seems the entire helicopter could need to be essentially 'pointed' at the target in order for the cannon to be fired on target, that is a potential issue.

In terms of the NZ Army air defence capability, AFAIK the principle system is sets of Mistral IR homing manpack SAMs. Personal and section small arms could be used in a pinch if needed, albeit not particularly effectively. If the NZLAV gunner got lucky, then the 25mm Bushmaster cannon could also possibly be used, but that gun has a max ROF of ~200 rounds per minute and there is also likely limitations on max elevation and depression of the barrel. With that in mind, and that many of the dedicated SPAAGs have significantly higher ROF as well as AA targeting systems, it does seem unreasonable to expect the LAVs to provide AA.

As for the C-130H replacement... If the A400M programme does start to get back on track, or at least sufficiently for the RNZAF to be able to take delivery and reach IOC ~2015-2017, then that is a potential candidate for the replacement. Having said that, given the cost and currently booked orders for the A400M, that aircraft might not be available when the NZDF needs to replace the C-130H's. While they have recently undergone or are undergoing a modification programme to extend the service life and additional ~5 years, that would still 'run out' in the 2015-2017 timeframe, which IMO was a waste of resources given that the per aircraft pricetag for the SLEP was IIRC ~80% the cost of new C-130J Hercs. What I would rather see, is that the NZDF get together with the ADF, and agree upon a common type of airlifter which both nation would operate, and then have the Kiwis by some of them. Potential candidates for this would be either the C-27J Spartan, or C-130J Herc II. This would either be a direct replacement for the RNZAF C-130H Hercs which are now 40+ years old, or an interim solution (a la C-27J) until something like the A400M becomes available. If the C-27J is selected, then it would fufil a mid-level airlift role which has been already identified as an area of need within the NZDF.

-Cheers
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
My opinion is that with the A4K's and the AerMacchi's being scrapped the weapons on them should be utilised instead of being dumped. It is a waste of resources and money. I disagree that we don't have the expertise here because we do both within the NZDF and in the civilian sector. It is a matter of lateral thinking beyond the square. IMHO this lack of close air support is very short sighted and an idea of a dedicated armed light helicopter would give our army a much needed flexibility and would also slot in with Australia. Another point that hasn't been bought up in any discussions on this forum is the lack of AAA in the Army apart from MAG58, C9 and .50cal. Although would the current 25mm cannon system fitted on the LAV have this capability?
G'day ngatimozart, interesting and resourceful ideas.

The impression I have though is of a RNZAF rather stretched, i.e. busy servicing their routine Gov directed duties, busy with also undertaking more overseas support duties, busy inter-operating with other forces (and learning and gaining new skillsets) and also busy supporting all this and busy training personnel to advance their careers etc.

Meanwhile Govt purse-strings remain rather tight, and personnel are also busy with internal reviews and restructuring etc.

Seeing the defence force are funded to provide services that the Govt wants, alas it appears to me that the Govt(s) don't seem to be interested in funding the NZDF (much) to undertake that sort of indigenous "R&D". Or looking another way, the budget allocated to the NZDF is so meager that it's a luxury the NZDF cannot prioritise as being low, medium let alone high etc. No doubt bean counters would be looking for a "return" (defence is run as a commercial business in a way. Probably just tollerable in peacetime, but unlike when these parameters were put in place in the indeed benign late 1980's when the NZDF probably hadn't had to fire a shot in anger, the current situation sees deadly risk to personnel's lives, and this doesn't seem to factor into the "equation").

So no funding for such modifications to allow equipment sitting there to be re-used. Also the bean counters would see no value in NZ undertaking the research and development costs to modify a product (eg AW109), when if the manufacturer hasn't then NZ will need to look at an off the shelf developed and certified system (eg side gun pods). At least the AW109 has that option, but it seems from your email the Govt hasn't prioritised it in the immediate term (but an allowance is there for the future). (Pity I'd rather they allow NZDF to get training experience in case they find when deployed they may need such a capability. Ah how these don't fit into the "equation")!

Instead though, if the Govt or Defence could find some spare cash, perhaps it might be worth some "no 8" kiwi fixes. Eg perhaps some of the spare 20mm canons could instead by put onto a specially made mount on the back of a trailer that could be towed by a LOV and the RNZAF base security guys could beef up their airfield defence layers rather cheaply but effectively! :D (After all the RNZAF still has personnel experienced with maintaning these weapons etc).

Which leads into your AAA question, which I actually think is "criminal" (can't think of the correct word) to describe the lack of a layered and networkable air self-defence capability to protect the Army (after all they have reasonably good self defence systems in other areas eg indirect fire, Javelin etc) & RNZAF on deployment/joint-deployment. NZDF needs a comparable SAM/self-system to the ADF, this is just a basic requirement that if the AusGov has identied as being a requirement for an expeditionary force, well the NZGovt is letting the NZDF down which is configured to undertake the same types of deployments (plus history has demonstrated this need).

"I am ex services with total time of about 12 years spent in The RNZAF and the RNZNVR.
What was your role in the RNZAF?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
G'day ngatimozart, interesting and resourceful ideas.

What was your role in the RNZAF?
G'day recce.k1. Thanks. I was an accounts clerk & reached the dizzying heights of Corporal. I tried to remuster to aircrew but my charge sheet was not clean to say the least, so the powers that be decided I would create less havoc where I was. In the RNZNVR I was a seaman which included gunnery amongst other things. I formed a great attachment to the .50 cal. To this day I firmly believe that the .50 cal is a great solver of problems :).

I do agree with your assessment of the RNZAF situation & the NZDF. Unfortunately since1984 there has not been any political will to retain a viable NZDF. This IMHO is evidenced in the the lack of a singularly cohesive, consistent, political policy or guidance for the NZDF since 1984. In the 1990's some Australian analysts and reporters used the term "defence bludgers" when referring to NZ and the dropping of NZDF funding to 1% GDP. As a Kiwi it pains me much to admit that the term would be fair comment.

NZ suffers from the tyranny of distance which is both a blessing and a millstone around NZDF's neck. It is a blessing in that any hostile naval surface force potentially will be detected before it reaches our shores. The millstone is that the population and the politicians have no visible threat to motivate them towards increasing Vote Defence to say 2% GDP which is where IMHO it should be at.

I can think of three potential threats. China, India & Indonesia. China more so because of Fiji's attempt to woo arms out of Beijing. What concerns me is if Beijing agrees what will be the price and conditions? It could mean a Chinese naval and air presence in the South Pacific which then creates security and strategic issues for both Australia and NZ. That is one scenario.

IMHO the biggest problem and danger that NZ and the NZDF face is not externally but from within. As mentioned above there has been no real cohesion in policy between governments from 1984 - 2011, no consistency in policy and direction and the most important and damaging issue of bleeding the NZDF dry by cuts to it's funding since 1984 in real terms. My belief is that NZDF is close to a point where it will be unable to carry out is basic mission.

NZDF needs a government with the balls and political will to back it and give it the resources, cohesive and consistent policy in order for it to be bought back from the brink and be able to do the job that it is mandated to do.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Re: above discussions,

Mind you its easy for us to be cynical about the over-arching framework that ensures defence operates in.

But for the service people they would just want to get on, also due to the realities of supporting current requirements, so they may not wish to waste too much time developing something that could be bought cheaper off the shelf (as there isn't the spare or idle manpower and funds are already allocated to other more pressing needs etc).

Despite that the reality is the positives, which is also an answer to jeffb, which is the NZDF are regaining lost skills by all 3 services inter-operating again with overseas services (and also regaining capabilities where mostly needed to support this). For the RNZAF though, they will deploy alot more closely with the Army (they already do and have all along but I mean is they will also require to be well supported, like the emphasis is on supporting land forces as they work in the field with other nations etc) with their new helos coming, the growth in joint-ISR etc, and simply having to work alongside other nations with these most basic of needs in modern times already in place. Still more could be done if funding allowed, one hope or potential positive is out of Value for Money exercises with defence being so lean, in about 3-5 years Govt and the bean counters start lifting defence expenditure (modest at the moment) in a realistic manner as the economy allows to ensure all NZDF capabilities are fully supported. There also needs to be some parallel advancements is smart-weapon acquistions (coming for the RNZN's ANZAC's, Army underway, but RNZAF needs a step-change as they are the last of the 3 services still operating with 1960's-80's weaponry, eg Mk 82's, 46's etc). Some simple and affordable moves in this direction within the next 5 years should see NZ regain additional credibility which jeffb is alluding to).
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I can think of three potential threats. China, India & Indonesia. China more so because of Fiji's attempt to woo arms out of Beijing. What concerns me is if Beijing agrees what will be the price and conditions? It could mean a Chinese naval and air presence in the South Pacific which then creates security and strategic issues for both Australia and NZ.
I think your approach to the above potential threats is incorrect. In my view NZ is too small to approach threats using the traditional model of "there's the big wolf". Rather the approach should be, and I think is, looking at the most likely security challenges NZ in the short (Less than 12 months), medium (1-5 years) and long term (5+ years). What I'm proposing is not without it flaws but I think provides greater flexibility in preparing for future threats.

For the most part I think NZ has the ability to due with the majority of short term challenges that might occur. But that's about it. To deal with the longer term challenges requires, as most on this board would probably agree with, a significant investment in maritime combat capabilities (i.e P8 with ASM, new torps etc, 18 strong ACF and a couple of new surface combatants).
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think your approach to the above potential threats is incorrect. In my view NZ is too small to approach threats using the traditional model of "there's the big wolf". Rather the approach should be, and I think is, looking at the most likely security challenges NZ in the short (Less than 12 months), medium (1-5 years) and long term (5+ years). What I'm proposing is not without it flaws but I think provides greater flexibility in preparing for future threats.

For the most part I think NZ has the ability to due with the majority of short term challenges that might occur. But that's about it. To deal with the longer term challenges requires, as most on this board would probably agree with, a significant investment in maritime combat capabilities (i.e P8 with ASM, new torps etc, 18 strong ACF and a couple of new surface combatants).
I think your approach is fundamentally more correct and logical. In an ideal world the NZDF would acquire the assets that you suggest but unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world and in NZ the bean counters appear to reign supreme. Secondly our politicians don't have the political will to increase Vote Defence from its pathetic 1% GDP to 2% GDP where realistically it should be at.

With regard to the P8, IMHO the most logical and cost effective move would be a joint purchase with the RAAF, but our politicians won't see the logic of that. 5 Sqn fly 6 P3K's at the moment; are 5 or 6 P8s are realistic buy given our politicians and the bean counters? What would you suggest for the ACF? My suggestion for 2 new surface combat vessels would be ANZAC II's because we are familiar with the class and also we keep compatibility with RAN. Also if present hulls technically viable, leaves door open for possibility of upgrading present ANZACS's to ANZAC II. But I am unsure of this because haven't looked into it fully.

I note that the German government is only going to purchase 40 x A400M's, from the original order of 53 aircraft for the Luftwaffe, leaving the remaining 13 options they have for export. My thoughts on an A400M purchase would be a max of 3 aircraft at the moment. Maybe even a purchase of 2 of the German export options and a further 1 or more aircraft later after the C130 phase out. 2 x A400M's would give the RNZAF a lot of heavy lift flexibility in the medium term and also spread the cost of the C130 replacement over a longer time frame.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
With regard to the P8, IMHO the most logical and cost effective move would be a joint purchase with the RAAF, but our politicians won't see the logic of that. 5 Sqn fly 6 P3K's at the moment; are 5 or 6 P8s are realistic buy given our politicians and the bean counters? What would you suggest for the ACF? My suggestion for 2 new surface combat vessels would be ANZAC II's because we are familiar with the class and also we keep compatibility with RAN. Also if present hulls technically viable, leaves door open for possibility of upgrading present ANZACS's to ANZAC II. But I am unsure of this because haven't looked into it fully.

I note that the German government is only going to purchase 40 x A400M's, from the original order of 53 aircraft for the Luftwaffe, leaving the remaining 13 options they have for export. My thoughts on an A400M purchase would be a max of 3 aircraft at the moment. Maybe even a purchase of 2 of the German export options and a further 1 or more aircraft later after the C130 phase out. 2 x A400M's would give the RNZAF a lot of heavy lift flexibility in the medium term and also spread the cost of the C130 replacement over a longer time frame.
IMO some form of joint structure with the ADF for maritime patrol and surveillance would make sense, as would a joint RAAF/RNZAF buy of the P-8 Poseidon. Barring a significant change in the defence environment in ASEAN/S. Pacific, or a change in the Kiwi population at large regarding their outlook on defence, a 1:1 P-3K Orion:p-8A Poseidon is a virtual impossibility. The Poseidon has an expected purchase cost of US$200 mil per aircraft IIRC, unless that could be spread out by the NZDF over a few years, that would consume most of the NZDF budget for a fiscal year, particularly since there would be additional costs for training, maintenance, parts, and other ancillary costs which would be required to actually operate them. Whether or not Government would actually consider such a program or not...

As for the RNZN replacement of the Anzac FFH, the 'Anzac II' which has received discussion in the RAN thread, that vessel, while currently being mentioned as the 'Anzac II' is expected to be an entirely new class of frigate (or perhaps destroyer). As such, it would not have class commonality with the current RAN & RNZN Anzac FFH's. While I would like to see the RNZN get at least 2 of the 'Anzac II' frigates, with 3 being better and 4 best of all, NZ might baulk at the cost, size and fitout. It has been theorized that the 'Anzac II' frigate would have a common hull with the Hobart-class AWD, which is expected to be ~7,000 tonnes, vs. the ~3,600 tons of the current Anzac FFH's. Between the significant size difference, there is some belief that the RAN is looking to have some very comprehensive sensors and combat systems in place aboard, with ASW, ASuW, land attack and area air defence capabilities. There would also likely be something to the tune of 40 VLS cells per vessel, a significant jump past the 8 Mk-41 VLS cells currently available. In short, the 'Anzac II' might very well be too large, expensive, advanced and capable in the eyes of Government and/or the populace as a whole. This is of particular concern IMO since the RNZN's Anzac FFH's are (again, IMO) no longer sufficiently capable to operate in a high-threat environment without escort, which is a problem given that one of the duties of frigates is to escort other vessels.

-Cheers
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
My suggestion for 2 new surface combat vessels would be ANZAC II's because we are familiar with the class and also we keep compatibility with RAN. Also if present hulls technically viable, leaves door open for possibility of upgrading present ANZACS's to ANZAC II. But I am unsure of this because haven't looked into it fully.
Per Tod's post, the specs being talked about for the ANZAC II are quite different to ANZAC. There's some information here on what the vessel is supposed to look like capability-wise, although I realise it's early days yet:

Defence Capability Plan 2009 - Public Version - December 2010 Update
 
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