Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[aussienscale]

Yes, Hip Hip Hooray :dance it has finally been announced that we are currently in serious discussions with the UK about the purchase or lease of the Largs Bay. The following links are from a press conference with MINDEF yesterday.

Australian Government, Department of Defence - Stephen Smith MP

Australian Government, Department of Defence - Stephen Smith MP

The word on the street is that Manoora is beyond economical repair and the Poms are offering Largs at an ridiculously low price. So Manoora will pay off and provide the crew for RFA Largs Bay A.K.A HMAS Jervis Bay III.

Tobruk will follow before Canberra commissions and then Kanimbla will go before Adelaide comes on line (She stays the longest because Manoora will become a Spare Parts Hulk).

It is interesting to note in the second transcript that when asked "Mr Smith, can you just tell us a little bit about this amphibious capability that you're looking at? What sort of cost would be involved and what would it be used for?"

"STEPHEN SMITH: We are transitioning to a number of large amphibious landing dock vessels. They're being built in Spain and our timetable for putting those amphibious landing and helicopter dock vessels into operation is the middle of this decade, so 2015.
In the meantime, we have to transition to that and so there is a requirement to look at our existing capability, which we have, and decide whether we need to add to that capability as we make the transition to the new landing dock vessels"

This statement seems to imply more of a replacement for the current ability and a gap filler with no reference to the future Sealift Ship as touted in the white paper ? Would have thought that given the chance you would relay to the media that this type of ship has been budgeted for in the future and that this is an oportunity to fullfill that requirement with a great saving to the budget, could this mean the future Sealift Ship is still on the cards after the arrival of the LHD's ? Or will that sales pitch come later

 

[gf0012-aust]

Is the 12 future submarines being acquired achievable/too costly and at the same time necessary?

all achievable, esp if reconsideration is given to splitting the sub fleet. Navy might not like knowing it, but you could probably identify 90% of the churn due to the fact that submariners didn't want to be based in WA and did not have the same rights to rotate out across the country to another loc at the end of their slots. If govt decides to to split the sub fleet then there is more than enough impetus to not only retain people, but the amount of submariners from UK and Canada wanting to come over starts making the manning issue look far far less problematic

If not how many should Australia be manning? 8-10 what would be the best in terms of capability (and cost/achievable).

12

What is the reasoning behind this increase? Asian military build up? Indonesia getting 12 subs as well?

ADF plan out 20-30 years, and look at likely as well as extant threats. its beyond the scope of this forum to go further into detail.

Indonesia is not the issue

 

[gf0012-aust]

The word on the street is that Manoora is beyond economical repair and the Poms are offering Largs at an ridiculously low price. So Manoora will pay off and provide the crew for RFA Largs Bay A.K.A HMAS Jervis Bay III.

Tobruk will follow before Canberra commissions and then Kanimbla will go before Adelaide comes on line (She stays the longest because Manoora will become a Spare Parts Hulk).

the poms are basically trying to flog off everything in the shop - unfort for them they're also bleeding people who want to come over.

ADF did very well out of ex UK transfers even 2-3 years ago, so we're at capacity for most "trades" - but RAN could do very well and get a resurge as she's the only service thats not at establishment.

I think there are likely to be some facilities announcements as well... if that happens, then crewing issues are going to go away, and retention will be less of an issue.

 

[aussienscale]

I think there are likely to be some facilities announcements as well... if that happens, then crewing issues are going to go away, and retention will be less of an issue.

Very interesting GF, especially on the back of the AUSMIN talks ! Any views on what this may include ? It would be interesting to see if they then become multi-lateral facilities rather than Bi-lateral as proposed in AUSMIN ? Or do you mean more in respect to joint facilities in production/design & manufacturing etc as elluded to in the recent SA visits ? It certainly puts Australia in the box seat so to speak, what potential advantages and advancements do you see for the ADF with this ? It certainly implies an investment that we would not be able to do ourselves, will this type of thing free up more money in the budget for more assetts ?

I have also noted some new abbreviations you have been using in some of your more recent posts' EG "NFI" etc, care to expand on the meaning

 

[RubiconNZ]

all achievable, esp if reconsideration is given to splitting the sub fleet. Navy might not like knowing it, but you could probably identify 90% of the churn due to the fact that submariners didn't want to be based in WA and did not have the same rights to rotate out across the country to another loc at the end of their slots. If govt decides to to split the sub fleet then there is more than enough impetus to not only retain people, but the amount of submariners from UK and Canada wanting to come over starts making the manning issue look far far less problematic

While potentially speculative at this time, though I am sure there is planning going on or in place, I wonder what location would be suitable for Sub Base East, where would be suitable locations, from a hypothetical situation you might be able to comment GF, I'm sure others will.

In my mind:
Garden Island Naval Base Sydney to crowded with the Canberra's coming, not mention rather open to the public in terms of seeing what is at home or not. They could seize the finger wharf I suppose, though it would upset a few people ie Russell.

Melbourne: to far south?

Brisbane? Well the sold HMAS Moreton, so would I be assume would mean a new land purchase, highly unlikely imo.

That effectively leaves Townsville, Cairns or Darwin,

Cairns and Darwin with Naval bases of their own, my knowledge of those bases are limited, so to get to the point which of these three could Submarines be home ported at. Cairns with potentially the most room, especially if once the Hydrography fleet is rationalised, the retirement of the LCH's would leave wharf space.

Anyone care to comment?

 

[ThePuss]

While potentially speculative at this time, though I am sure there is planning going on or in place, I wonder what location would be suitable for Sub Base East, where would be suitable locations, from a hypothetical situation you might be able to comment GF, I'm sure others will.

In my mind:
Garden Island Naval Base Sydney to crowded with the Canberra's coming, not mention rather open to the public in terms of seeing what is at home or not. They could seize the finger wharf I suppose, though it would upset a few people ie Russell.

Melbourne: to far south?

Brisbane? Well the sold HMAS Moreton, so would I be assume would mean a new land purchase, highly unlikely imo.

That effectively leaves Townsville, Cairns or Darwin,

Cairns and Darwin with Naval bases of their own, my knowledge of those bases are limited, so to get to the point which of these three could Submarines be home ported at. Cairns with potentially the most room, especially if once the Hydrography fleet is rationalised, the retirement of the LCH's would leave wharf space.

Anyone care to comment?

The Hydro's are not getting "rationalized" as you put it and the RFT for the LCH's came out yesterday so there is definitely "No room at the inn" at HMAS Cairns i,e the most congested base the RAN operates.

 

[aussienscale]

While potentially speculative at this time, though I am sure there is planning going on or in place, I wonder what location would be suitable for Sub Base East, where would be suitable locations, from a hypothetical situation you might be able to comment GF, I'm sure others will.

In my mind:
Garden Island Naval Base Sydney to crowded with the Canberra's coming, not mention rather open to the public in terms of seeing what is at home or not. They could seize the finger wharf I suppose, though it would upset a few people ie Russell.

Melbourne: to far south?

Brisbane? Well the sold HMAS Moreton, so would I be assume would mean a new land purchase, highly unlikely imo.

That effectively leaves Townsville, Cairns or Darwin,

Cairns and Darwin with Naval bases of their own, my knowledge of those bases are limited, so to get to the point which of these three could Submarines be home ported at. Cairns with potentially the most room, especially if once the Hydrography fleet is rationalised, the retirement of the LCH's would leave wharf space.

Anyone care to comment?

Garden Island ? it's openess would not matter, they don't just sink and go out underwater hoping to evade prying eyes

Melbourne ? Where are you suggesting ? Cerberus ? May not be as stupid as it sounds, remote location with reasonable access to open waters with the warf facilities, but is it too far south for sub ops considering the main theeatre of operation (hence WA)

Brisbane ? Nope

Cairns ? No, you want open water access, your certainly don't want to be vulnerable transiting the reef in shallow waters

Darwin ? possible but as previously referenced, getting the numbers and manning for 12 subs in Darwin, would make the current situation worse

As GF has mentioned, splitting the fleet ? time will tell

 

[aussienscale]

and the RFT for the LCH's came out yesterday

Do you have a reference you can quote/post for the RFI ?

 

[RubiconNZ]

The Hydro's are not getting "rationalized" as you put it and the RFT for the LCH's came out yesterday so there is definitely "No room at the inn" at HMAS Cairns i,e the most congested base the RAN operates.

My understanding must was the future OCV's were to multi-task with hydrography being one of their roles, I guess I assumed they would all be replaced by the OCV's, I stand corrected.

Really good to know about the LCH's, I was unsure about replacement, only pessimistic views of their replacement on this and other forums.
Will\has the RFI be released publicly?

Cheers.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Garden Island ? it's openess would not matter, they don't just sink and go out underwater hoping to evade prying eyes

Melbourne ? Where are you suggesting ? Cerberus ? May not be as stupid as it sounds, remote location with reasonable access to open waters with the warf facilities, but is it too far south for sub ops considering the main theeatre of operation (hence WA)

Brisbane ? Nope

Cairns ? No, you want open water access, your certainly don't want to be vulnerable transiting the reef in shallow waters

Darwin ? possible but as previously referenced, getting the numbers and manning for 12 subs in Darwin, would make the current situation worse

As GF has mentioned, splitting the fleet ? time will tell

Obviously I was thinking HMAS Kuttabul /Garden Island for Sydney though looking through the list of facilities how about HMAS Waterhen?
By the time of Collins II the Huon's will be about to due to be paid off Leaving a relatively new base/facilities.

Though looking at the photo on Wiki, that water looks awfully shallow.

Maybe some underground pens we don't know about, the tunnels in Garden Island could be much larger than people realize

 

[ThePuss]

Do you have a reference you can quote/post for the RFI ?

UK to transfer dock landing ships to Australia


The Australian and British governments have begun talks about possibly transferring one of the UK Royal Fleet Auxiliary's (RFA's) four Bay-class dock landing ships to the Royal Australian Navy (RAN).

As part of a wide-ranging Strategic Defence and Security Review, the UK's Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition administration announced in October 2010 that one of the 16,400-ton amphibious vessels would be decommissioned along with two aircraft/helicopter carriers and four frigates.

It has emerged that Australia is interested in acquiring the ship as an interim measure pending the entry into service of the RAN's two new 26,200-ton Canberra-class landing helicopter dock (LHD) ships in 2015.

Speaking in Adelaide on 19 January, Australian Defence Minister Stephen Smith said: "There is a requirement to look at our existing capability, which we have [done], and decide whether we need to add to that capability as we make the transition to the new landing dock vessels. We want to have a very close look at whether it's appropriate for us to either lease or buy one of the ... Bay-class landing vessels. I'm not proposing to put a cost on that, we just want to explore whether it is a sensible thing for Australia to do to acquire one of those assets."

In a related development on 18 January, Australia published a request for information (RfI) for the long-term procurement of heavy landing craft to support the Canberra-class LHDs. Joint Project 2048 Phase 5 envisages the procurement of six units to replace the RAN's ageing 44.5 m Balikpapan-class heavy landing craft, which entered service in the early 1970s.

Outlining the landing craft procurement, which is costed at about AUD200 million (USD200 million), the RfI stated that the selected design will have "improved ocean-going capabilities able to transport armoured vehicles, trucks, stores and people. It will provide a capability to conduct independent small scale regional amphibious operations or to support the Canberra-class amphibious assault ships."

Australia's Defence Capability Plan (DCP), which was updated in December 2010, estimates a decision on the platform by 2018-19 and initial operating capability being reached in the early part of the next decade. The DCP added that this expected extended schedule is due to the "likely design innovation necessary to meet [the] parameters".

Built by BAE Systems and Swan Hunter and commisioned into the RFA in 2006 and 2007, the Bay-class amphibious ships are based on Dutch company Royal Schelde's Enforcer design. The stern dock can accommodate a medium landing craft and the flight deck can operate Chinook helicopters.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Could any one point me to a OTS example of a LCH replacement, I know the US operates a similar vessels, but that is about the extent of it.
What do people see in this replacement?
Will it be the same type of design?
Are there any revolutionary designs that are not so OTS?

Given that a desire for increased stability is specified, I would assume there will be some design changes.

 

[aussienscale]

Could any one point me to a OTS example of a LCH replacement, I know the US operates a similar vessels, but that is about the extent of it.
What do people see in this replacement?
Will it be the same type of design?
Are there any revolutionary designs that are not so OTS?

Given that a desire for increased stability is specified, I would assume there will be some design changes.

Pretty sure this has been posted before
BMT Defence Services - Fast Landing Craft Tank Caimen-200 (Design DS703)

Also from the same company is something along the lines of the OCV
BMT Defence Services - Minor Warships: BMT Venator

And one that has definately been posted before (IIRC by Abe) is
BMT Defence Services - Fast Landing Craft

Gives you an idea anyway

 

[Sea Toby]

Pretty sure this has been posted before
BMT Defence Services - Fast Landing Craft Tank Caimen-200 (Design DS703)

Also from the same company is something along the lines of the OCV
BMT Defence Services - Minor Warships: BMT Venator

And one that has definately been posted before (IIRC by Abe) is
BMT Defence Services - Fast Landing Craft

Gives you an idea anyway

Yes, the Frank S. Benson class of Army landing ships can do the jobs of beaching men, equipment, and supplies, they don't have the housing capacity to support troops over a long period of time at sea... There is a reason why the US Marines/Navy have not bought them...

They are great for army amphibious maneuvers along a coast or to a neighboring nearby island... Keep in mind the US Army doesn't spend anywhere near the time at sea the US Marines do, six or more months at a time...

 

[Padfoot]

Defence strategists look to WA - The West Australian

Dr Muraviev says that in the not too distant future Australia could become more reliant on the Indian navy for the safe passage of shipments of WA's minerals through the Indian Ocean.

He says that Australia needs to think about building its own military assets in the region and should consider basing more of its equipment in WA to ensure Australia can project power well beyond its shores to safeguard its interests. He also argues that Australia should consider buying a navy version of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter that could be flown off the navy's two Canberra-class amphibious assault ships, which should enter service in 2014. Currently, Australia is planning only to operate fleets of helicopters from the vessels.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Defence strategists look to WA - The West Australian

we already have Fleet Base West - the Indians already know this too....
and most of the SASR are also living out there...


gf runs screaming from the room....

 

[StoresBasher]

Yes, Hip Hip Hooray :dance it has finally been announced that we are currently in serious discussions with the UK about the purchase or lease of the Largs Bay. The following links are from a press conference with MINDEF yesterday

The word on the street is that Manoora is beyond economical repair and the Poms are offering Largs at an ridiculously low price. So Manoora will pay off and provide the crew for RFA Largs Bay A.K.A HMAS Jervis Bay III.

Tobruk will follow before Canberra commissions and then Kanimbla will go before Adelaide comes on line (She stays the longest because Manoora will become a Spare Parts Hulk).

I am currently serving on Manoora, there are so many rumours flying around, from the realistic, to the ridiculous.
At the moment, we do not know what is happening.
We will hopefully find out next week, when the CO is back from leave and back from a visit to Canberra.

 

[SASWanabe]

wow i just found this

Commemorating our Service to the Nation 1911-1915 - Royal Australian Navy

i woulda thought the RAN would have a fleet review in 2011 not 2013

can anyone confirm that we wont see a fleet review/ ceremonial entry till 2013?

 

[Aussie Digger]

we already have Fleet Base West - the Indians already know this too....
and most of the SASR are also living out there...


gf runs screaming from the room....

And RAAF Pearce, Curtin and Learmonth...

And let us not forget the Royal Western Australian Regiment, The Pilbara Regiment, Norforce and so on.

Sounds like these "analysts" actually need to have a look at where ADF's assets are actually based.

Still with analysis of this level, they still have more credibility than APA...

 

[RubiconNZ]

And RAAF Pearce, Curtain and Learmonth...

And let us not forget the Royal Western Australian Regiment, The Pilbara Regiment, Norforce and so on.

Sounds like these "analysts" actually need to have a look at where ADF's assets are actually based.

Still with analysis of this level, they still have more credibility than APA...

My initial response was WA does have a lighter on level of personnel, but I think the argument lost traction when the "scenario" they described was a clear example of an occasion when the SASR would be used.